Distortion vertical objects rolling shutter a9

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Raafje Forum Member • Posts: 50
Distortion vertical objects rolling shutter a9

Sony a9 distortion vertical objects in the background during panning...:-(
It is not a big deal, but it happens pretty often and I don't like it (Electronic shutter 20fps)
Raafje

Sony a9
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Trollmannx Veteran Member • Posts: 6,712
Re: Distortion vertical objects rolling shutter a9
9

Then use the mechanical slutter.

The scan time of the electronic shutter is fixed and so it is. No way around that.

OP Raafje Forum Member • Posts: 50
Re: Distortion vertical objects rolling shutter a9

Trollmannx wrote:

Then use the mechanical slutter.

The scan time of the electronic shutter is fixed and so it is. No way around that.

Offcourse, but this camera is advertised for 20 fps with minimal distortion.
Today l did some shooting on the same location with shorter shutterspeeds and
it was less. Overall, compared to the distortion of my a6300 and a6400 I can live with it..)

Magnar W
Magnar W Veteran Member • Posts: 5,009
Re: Distortion vertical objects rolling shutter a9
2

Are your images tilted a tad counter clockwise? The pictures seems not to be aligned perfectly to the horizont.

If the readout speed is enough to freeze a golf clun\b speed, it seens unlikely that these poles should be noticeable affected by jelly effect when panning.

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padam19 Regular Member • Posts: 329
Re: Distortion vertical objects rolling shutter a9
1

Magnar W wrote:

Are your images tilted a tad counter clockwise? The pictures seems not to be aligned perfectly to the horizont.

If the readout speed is enough to freeze a golf clun\b speed, it seens unlikely that these poles should be noticeable affected by jelly effect when panning.

It is a different scenario, the camera has the "Anti-distortion shutter" which is probably some sort of additional software correction to remove any residue for rolling shutter. It works well when the camera is relatively static, but when the camera is panning very quickly, it will have a harder time doing this type of correction, so some artifacts may still appear.
It would be interesting to see it against the new A7SIII which also has a very fast sensor readout (Even though it is not a stacked sensor), it probably does not have this Anti-distortion shutter feature.

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Magnar W
Magnar W Veteran Member • Posts: 5,009
Re: Distortion vertical objects rolling shutter a9

padam19 wrote:

Magnar W wrote:

Are your images tilted a tad counter clockwise? The pictures seems not to be aligned perfectly to the horizont.

If the readout speed is enough to freeze a golf clun\b speed, it seens unlikely that these poles should be noticeable affected by jelly effect when panning.

It is a different scenario, the camera has the "Anti-distortion shutter" which is probably some sort of additional software correction to remove any residue for rolling shutter. It works well when the camera is relatively static, but when the camera is panning very quickly, it will have a harder time doing this type of correction, so some artifacts may still appear.
It would be interesting to see it against the new A7SIII which also has a very fast sensor readout (Even though it is not a stacked sensor), it probably does not have this Anti-distortion shutter feature.

This kind of distortion shoud probably be visible with mechanical shutters too, since faster shutter speed than about 1/250 sec is obtained with a slit moving vertically. The Sony A9/A9II readout speed isn't that much slower, about 1/180 second, from what I understand.

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Alfonso Bresciani
Alfonso Bresciani Senior Member • Posts: 1,811
Re: Distortion vertical objects rolling shutter a9
3

Magnar W wrote:

Are your images tilted a tad counter clockwise? The pictures seems not to be aligned perfectly to the horizont.

If the readout speed is enough to freeze a golf clun\b speed, it seens unlikely that these poles should be noticeable affected by jelly effect when panning.

these pics are tilted, look at the shadow areas on top...

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OP Raafje Forum Member • Posts: 50
Re: Distortion vertical objects rolling shutter a9

Alfonso Bresciani wrote:

Magnar W wrote:

Are your images tilted a tad counter clockwise? The pictures seems not to be aligned perfectly to the horizont.

If the readout speed is enough to freeze a golf clun\b speed, it seens unlikely that these poles should be noticeable affected by jelly effect when panning.

these pics are tilted, look at the shadow areas on top...

No,
Later I will post more samples with the horizon visible.
Raafje

pollup Contributing Member • Posts: 545
Re: Distortion vertical objects rolling shutter a9
1

Show us the same images with mechanical and electronic shutters, that way we can see what they should look like.

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OP Raafje Forum Member • Posts: 50
Re: Distortion vertical objects rolling shutter a9

pollup wrote:

Show us the same images with mechanical and electronic shutters, that way we can see what they should look like.

This 'problem' does not occur with mechanical shutters. I never noticed this from the 3o years I was a canon and nikon dslr shooter. Today I made some new distortion samples
with the sony a9 in electronic shuttermode when making panning movements. I post them later. If you can't wait, make a panning shoot movement with 20 fps with powerpylons or something like that in the background. There is no need to wait for a bird passing by...)

OP Raafje Forum Member • Posts: 50
Re: Distortion vertical objects rolling shutter a9

Some distortion samples from today (Panning with electronic shutter 20 fps)

Offcourse you don't need a bird to make a distortion sample..)
Two frames from a panning movement :

Most times there is no problem...;)
The same Swan :

Crop from the same picture :

Another distortion sample :

ssshoot
ssshoot Regular Member • Posts: 396
Re: Distortion vertical objects rolling shutter a9

Trollmannx wrote:

Then use the mechanical slutter.

The scan time of the electronic shutter is fixed and so it is. No way around that.

A mechanical 'slutter', mmmm, interesting 

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OP Raafje Forum Member • Posts: 50
Re: Distortion vertical objects rolling shutter a9

Magnar W wrote:

Are your images tilted a tad counter clockwise? The pictures seems not to be aligned perfectly to the horizont.

If the readout speed is enough to freeze a golf clun\b speed, it seens unlikely that these poles should be noticeable affected by jelly effect when panning.

No,
The problem occurs when panning...
I know the golfclub freezing sony-pr samples.
I'm sure there is no panning involved for taking those pictures.

Trollmannx Veteran Member • Posts: 6,712
Re: Distortion vertical objects rolling shutter a9
1

ssshoot wrote:

Trollmannx wrote:

Then use the mechanical slutter.

The scan time of the electronic shutter is fixed and so it is. No way around that.

A mechanical 'slutter', mmmm, interesting

Auto word correction, just as brilliant as using the electronic shutter when shooting fast and erratic action... 

Magnar W
Magnar W Veteran Member • Posts: 5,009
You probably are right! Test shots posted here!
1

On forums we sometimes think we are right when answering or commenting, but doing some quick research might make us change our mind.

Your photographs and comments made me do a pretty simple test to find out how the electronic shutter in my A7rIII handles panning. And guess what: With electronic shutter (ES), the tilting effect is insane - just as expected with such low readout speed.

If we look at the ES results here, and try to reduce the angle so that it fit the A9 readout speed, I woult think some tiliting defect would be seen with your camera too when panning. Note the flat top on the tilted poles. I can clearly observe the same in one of the photos you first posted.

Just a few notes on my test:

  • I went for a test scene with a visible horizon line for better control
  • I took a reference shot with static camera
  • It is very hard to pan with excactly the same speed
  • Even mechanical shutter show slight tilting defect, less so with electronic first shutter curtain, but this is probably due to some slower panning speed

Here are my quick and dirty results:

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Magnar W
Magnar W Veteran Member • Posts: 5,009
Examples very fast panning - mechanical shutter
6

Here are two frames taken with mechanical shutter, taken with 400 mm focal length at 1/8000 sec. The camera was panned very fast, higher speed that what we would use for tracking for birds in flight.

Here we clearly see the rolling shutter defect with vertical mechanical shutter. Note that the top of the poles look horizontal.

Also se the post lower in this tread, with examples taken with different shutter settings.

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Alfonso Bresciani
Alfonso Bresciani Senior Member • Posts: 1,811
Re: You probably are right! Test shots posted here!

Electronic first shutter curtain is straight!!! What are the cons of using electronic first?

Magnar W wrote:

On forums we sometimes think we are right when answering or commenting, but doing some quick research might make us change our mind.

Your photographs and comments made me do a pretty simple test to find out how the electronic shutter in my A7rIII handles panning. And guess what: With electronic shutter (ES), the tilting effect is insane - just as expected with such low readout speed.

If we look at the ES results here, and try to reduce the angle so that it fit the A9 readout speed, I woult think some tiliting defect would be seen with your camera too when panning. Note the flat top on the tilted poles. I can clearly observe the same in one of the photos you first posted.

Just a few notes on my test:

  • I went for a test scene with a visible horizon line for better control
  • I took a reference shot with static camera
  • It is very hard to pan with excactly the same speed
  • Even mechanical shutter show slight tilting defect, less so with electronic first shutter curtain, but this is probably due to some slower panning speed

Here are my quick and dirty results:

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robert614 Senior Member • Posts: 1,726
I’ve noticed the same thing

Raafje wrote:

Sony a9 distortion vertical objects in the background during panning...:-(
It is not a big deal, but it happens pretty often and I don't like it (Electronic shutter 20fps)
Raafje

I’ve noticed the same phenomena.

I made a thread about it on Fred Miranda a while back.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1623045/0#15052843

Magnar W
Magnar W Veteran Member • Posts: 5,009
Re: You probably are right! Test shots posted here!

Alfonso Bresciani wrote:

Electronic first shutter curtain is straight!!! What are the cons of using electronic first?

Close to zero.

You might get a bit different out-of-focus rendering when using very bright aperture, and with some non-native lenses you can get uneven exposure with at very high shutter speed.

This is documented in the user guide, and most likely also the help guide.

For my photography, I use first electronic shutter curtain all the time.

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SQLGuy Veteran Member • Posts: 9,510
Re: You probably are right! Test shots posted here!

Magnar W wrote:

Alfonso Bresciani wrote:

Electronic first shutter curtain is straight!!! What are the cons of using electronic first?

Close to zero.

You might get a bit different out-of-focus rendering when using very bright aperture, and with some non-native lenses you can get uneven exposure with at very high shutter speed.

This is documented in the user guide, and most likely also the help guide.

For my photography, I use first electronic shutter curtain all the time.

You also may get fine banding when using HSS flash.

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