1200mm: Digital Teleconverter

Started 9 months ago | Discussions
James Stirling
James Stirling Senior Member • Posts: 8,142
Re: Upsizing with Lightroom, Photoshop & darktable

MHshooter wrote:

James Stirling wrote:

MHshooter wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

There was some interest and discussion of upsizing/uprezzing a raw photo on your computer as an alternative. Here is an example I did using 3 different programs. I uprezzed a raw file using Lightroom, Photoshop Preserve Details 2.0, and darktable:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64367958

Those are actually impressive, but I'd like to see it done with a resolution chart of some kind as well.

With apologies to Henry for not getting back to my own thread . Here is the Gigapixel attempt at part of a resolution test shot from imaging resource Z7 raw. 1/8th crop , output to 18x12" at 300ppi, full image below and downsized original image to show where the crop comes from

His use of programs to upsize appeared to increase resolution, which isn't really possible unless some kind of A.I. is at work. Even if it appeared to show an increase in resolution, it would have to be verified by taking a normal shot (closer, with a better lens) that showed the same features the programs appeared to uncover.

Of course it is simulating the results but quite convincingly so with less extreme cropping, especially when printed. As you do not have access to the infamous 100% zoom button

Here is an attempt using the 100mp Fuji

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Jim Stirling:
It is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true” Russell
Feel free to tinker with any photos I post

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OP Henry Richardson Forum Pro • Posts: 19,116
Nikon P950: Egret at 6000mm-efl
2

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

Max Iso wrote:

It's definitely an interesting feature but i think more so for video. I don't know what the exact crop increase is but since video "rez" output doesn't change from full sensor to ETC, it turns into a pretty neat feature.

Turning on ETC and digital IS on a 4k body is pretty amazing, in the near future im going to try it out on my 1250mm C90 scope. Not sure what the final FL will be but im guessing 3000mm+, maybe even 4000mm.

I think Nikon has a small sensor camera with a very, very long zoom. 3000mm or so. With your scope you could play around and get some interesting photos, I think. Use your imagination. Probably not great for boring bird photos, but be creative is my suggestion.

I have the Nikon P900 and I believe the camera you are referring to is the Nikon P1000. The Nikon P950 is the camera that supports 4K30 video. What I dont know and want to find out is if any camera supports in camera cropping of 2K (for 1080P) videos or in camera cropping of 4K videos. I dont think any M43 cameras do or any camera of the Nikon P series for that matter?

I saw this post today that has several photos using the Nikon P950.  One of them is at 6000mm-elf (!!!) and one at 2000mm-efl and another at something like 1800mm-efl:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64422797

-- hide signature --

Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com

MHshooter
MHshooter Senior Member • Posts: 1,010
Re: Nikon P950: Egret at 6000mm-efl

Henry Richardson wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

Max Iso wrote:

It's definitely an interesting feature but i think more so for video. I don't know what the exact crop increase is but since video "rez" output doesn't change from full sensor to ETC, it turns into a pretty neat feature.

Turning on ETC and digital IS on a 4k body is pretty amazing, in the near future im going to try it out on my 1250mm C90 scope. Not sure what the final FL will be but im guessing 3000mm+, maybe even 4000mm.

I think Nikon has a small sensor camera with a very, very long zoom. 3000mm or so. With your scope you could play around and get some interesting photos, I think. Use your imagination. Probably not great for boring bird photos, but be creative is my suggestion.

I have the Nikon P900 and I believe the camera you are referring to is the Nikon P1000. The Nikon P950 is the camera that supports 4K30 video. What I dont know and want to find out is if any camera supports in camera cropping of 2K (for 1080P) videos or in camera cropping of 4K videos. I dont think any M43 cameras do or any camera of the Nikon P series for that matter?

I saw this post today that has several photos using the Nikon P950. One of them is at 6000mm-elf (!!!) and one at 2000mm-efl and another at something like 1800mm-efl:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64422797

Pretty decent, some of them, but it's noisy (chroma) at 100 ISO.  What they need to do is try an APS with a 200-500mm lens at 500mm and the 950 at some focal length around 2000mm equivalent, reduce the size of the 950 shot to match the 500mm end on the APS and see how they compare.  Though I wouldn't push the 950 past 400 ISO.

OutsideTheMatrix
OutsideTheMatrix Veteran Member • Posts: 7,850
Re: Nikon P950: Egret at 6000mm-efl

MHshooter wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

Max Iso wrote:

It's definitely an interesting feature but i think more so for video. I don't know what the exact crop increase is but since video "rez" output doesn't change from full sensor to ETC, it turns into a pretty neat feature.

Turning on ETC and digital IS on a 4k body is pretty amazing, in the near future im going to try it out on my 1250mm C90 scope. Not sure what the final FL will be but im guessing 3000mm+, maybe even 4000mm.

I think Nikon has a small sensor camera with a very, very long zoom. 3000mm or so. With your scope you could play around and get some interesting photos, I think. Use your imagination. Probably not great for boring bird photos, but be creative is my suggestion.

I have the Nikon P900 and I believe the camera you are referring to is the Nikon P1000. The Nikon P950 is the camera that supports 4K30 video. What I dont know and want to find out is if any camera supports in camera cropping of 2K (for 1080P) videos or in camera cropping of 4K videos. I dont think any M43 cameras do or any camera of the Nikon P series for that matter?

I saw this post today that has several photos using the Nikon P950. One of them is at 6000mm-elf (!!!) and one at 2000mm-efl and another at something like 1800mm-efl:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64422797

Pretty decent, some of them, but it's noisy (chroma) at 100 ISO. What they need to do is try an APS with a 200-500mm lens at 500mm and the 950 at some focal length around 2000mm equivalent, reduce the size of the 950 shot to match the 500mm end on the APS and see how they compare. Though I wouldn't push the 950 past 400 ISO.

I wonder if it will ever be possible to use "two sensors in one" let's say you have a M43 sensor but want a smaller sensor with the same amount of megapixels for superzooming, is it possible to have a 4/3 sensor with 16 MP and a 2/3 sensor with 16 MP in the same camera?

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In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

 OutsideTheMatrix's gear list:OutsideTheMatrix's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P900 Olympus PEN E-PL6 Olympus OM-D E-M10 II Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm 1:3.5-5.6 II R Olympus M.Zuiko ED 75-300mm 1:4.8-6.7 II +9 more
MHshooter
MHshooter Senior Member • Posts: 1,010
Re: Nikon P950: Egret at 6000mm-efl
1

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

MHshooter wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

Max Iso wrote:

It's definitely an interesting feature but i think more so for video. I don't know what the exact crop increase is but since video "rez" output doesn't change from full sensor to ETC, it turns into a pretty neat feature.

Turning on ETC and digital IS on a 4k body is pretty amazing, in the near future im going to try it out on my 1250mm C90 scope. Not sure what the final FL will be but im guessing 3000mm+, maybe even 4000mm.

I think Nikon has a small sensor camera with a very, very long zoom. 3000mm or so. With your scope you could play around and get some interesting photos, I think. Use your imagination. Probably not great for boring bird photos, but be creative is my suggestion.

I have the Nikon P900 and I believe the camera you are referring to is the Nikon P1000. The Nikon P950 is the camera that supports 4K30 video. What I dont know and want to find out is if any camera supports in camera cropping of 2K (for 1080P) videos or in camera cropping of 4K videos. I dont think any M43 cameras do or any camera of the Nikon P series for that matter?

I saw this post today that has several photos using the Nikon P950. One of them is at 6000mm-elf (!!!) and one at 2000mm-efl and another at something like 1800mm-efl:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64422797

Pretty decent, some of them, but it's noisy (chroma) at 100 ISO. What they need to do is try an APS with a 200-500mm lens at 500mm and the 950 at some focal length around 2000mm equivalent, reduce the size of the 950 shot to match the 500mm end on the APS and see how they compare. Though I wouldn't push the 950 past 400 ISO.

I wonder if it will ever be possible to use "two sensors in one" let's say you have a M43 sensor but want a smaller sensor with the same amount of megapixels for superzooming, is it possible to have a 4/3 sensor with 16 MP and a 2/3 sensor with 16 MP in the same camera?

You could, with a mirror redirecting the light when needed, but I'd go for a 40mp m4/3rds sensor.

Eric Nepean
Eric Nepean Veteran Member • Posts: 5,658
Re: Nikon P950: Egret at 6000mm-efl
1

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

MHshooter wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

Max Iso wrote:

It's definitely an interesting feature but i think more so for video. I don't know what the exact crop increase is but since video "rez" output doesn't change from full sensor to ETC, it turns into a pretty neat feature.

Turning on ETC and digital IS on a 4k body is pretty amazing, in the near future im going to try it out on my 1250mm C90 scope. Not sure what the final FL will be but im guessing 3000mm+, maybe even 4000mm.

I think Nikon has a small sensor camera with a very, very long zoom. 3000mm or so. With your scope you could play around and get some interesting photos, I think. Use your imagination. Probably not great for boring bird photos, but be creative is my suggestion.

I have the Nikon P900 and I believe the camera you are referring to is the Nikon P1000. The Nikon P950 is the camera that supports 4K30 video. What I dont know and want to find out is if any camera supports in camera cropping of 2K (for 1080P) videos or in camera cropping of 4K videos. I dont think any M43 cameras do or any camera of the Nikon P series for that matter?

I saw this post today that has several photos using the Nikon P950. One of them is at 6000mm-elf (!!!) and one at 2000mm-efl and another at something like 1800mm-efl:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64422797

Pretty decent, some of them, but it's noisy (chroma) at 100 ISO. What they need to do is try an APS with a 200-500mm lens at 500mm and the 950 at some focal length around 2000mm equivalent, reduce the size of the 950 shot to match the 500mm end on the APS and see how they compare. Though I wouldn't push the 950 past 400 ISO.

I wonder if it will ever be possible to use "two sensors in one" let's say you have a M43 sensor but want a smaller sensor with the same amount of megapixels for superzooming, is it possible to have a 4/3 sensor with 16 MP and a 2/3 sensor with 16 MP in the same camera?

Sony has something very like that. The A7R4 has a full frame 61MP sensor, you can put it into APSC mode and get about 26MP.

Crop the APSC image to M43 dimensions and you will have about 15MP.

-- hide signature --

Cheers
Eric
(Any image that I post in a DPR forum may be editted and posted in a DPR forum)

 Eric Nepean's gear list:Eric Nepean's gear list
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MHshooter
MHshooter Senior Member • Posts: 1,010
Re: Nikon P950: Egret at 6000mm-efl

Eric Nepean wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

MHshooter wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

Max Iso wrote:

It's definitely an interesting feature but i think more so for video. I don't know what the exact crop increase is but since video "rez" output doesn't change from full sensor to ETC, it turns into a pretty neat feature.

Turning on ETC and digital IS on a 4k body is pretty amazing, in the near future im going to try it out on my 1250mm C90 scope. Not sure what the final FL will be but im guessing 3000mm+, maybe even 4000mm.

I think Nikon has a small sensor camera with a very, very long zoom. 3000mm or so. With your scope you could play around and get some interesting photos, I think. Use your imagination. Probably not great for boring bird photos, but be creative is my suggestion.

I have the Nikon P900 and I believe the camera you are referring to is the Nikon P1000. The Nikon P950 is the camera that supports 4K30 video. What I dont know and want to find out is if any camera supports in camera cropping of 2K (for 1080P) videos or in camera cropping of 4K videos. I dont think any M43 cameras do or any camera of the Nikon P series for that matter?

I saw this post today that has several photos using the Nikon P950. One of them is at 6000mm-elf (!!!) and one at 2000mm-efl and another at something like 1800mm-efl:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64422797

Pretty decent, some of them, but it's noisy (chroma) at 100 ISO. What they need to do is try an APS with a 200-500mm lens at 500mm and the 950 at some focal length around 2000mm equivalent, reduce the size of the 950 shot to match the 500mm end on the APS and see how they compare. Though I wouldn't push the 950 past 400 ISO.

I wonder if it will ever be possible to use "two sensors in one" let's say you have a M43 sensor but want a smaller sensor with the same amount of megapixels for superzooming, is it possible to have a 4/3 sensor with 16 MP and a 2/3 sensor with 16 MP in the same camera?

Sony has something very like that. The A7R4 has a full frame 61MP sensor, you can put it into APSC mode and get about 26MP.

Crop the APSC image to M43 dimensions and you will have about 15MP.

Problem is, it's not increasing the pixel density, it's just cropping away area.  A m4/3rds pixel density is still higher than any other of the three formats at 20mp so it provides the most "reach" with a given lens.  As soon as FF hits 80mp, it'll be equal, plus it'll have the extra area coverage.

Eric Nepean
Eric Nepean Veteran Member • Posts: 5,658
Re: Nikon P950: Egret at 6000mm-efl

MHshooter wrote:

Eric Nepean wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

MHshooter wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

Max Iso wrote:

It's definitely an interesting feature but i think more so for video. I don't know what the exact crop increase is but since video "rez" output doesn't change from full sensor to ETC, it turns into a pretty neat feature.

Turning on ETC and digital IS on a 4k body is pretty amazing, in the near future im going to try it out on my 1250mm C90 scope. Not sure what the final FL will be but im guessing 3000mm+, maybe even 4000mm.

I think Nikon has a small sensor camera with a very, very long zoom. 3000mm or so. With your scope you could play around and get some interesting photos, I think. Use your imagination. Probably not great for boring bird photos, but be creative is my suggestion.

I have the Nikon P900 and I believe the camera you are referring to is the Nikon P1000. The Nikon P950 is the camera that supports 4K30 video. What I dont know and want to find out is if any camera supports in camera cropping of 2K (for 1080P) videos or in camera cropping of 4K videos. I dont think any M43 cameras do or any camera of the Nikon P series for that matter?

I saw this post today that has several photos using the Nikon P950. One of them is at 6000mm-elf (!!!) and one at 2000mm-efl and another at something like 1800mm-efl:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64422797

Pretty decent, some of them, but it's noisy (chroma) at 100 ISO. What they need to do is try an APS with a 200-500mm lens at 500mm and the 950 at some focal length around 2000mm equivalent, reduce the size of the 950 shot to match the 500mm end on the APS and see how they compare. Though I wouldn't push the 950 past 400 ISO.

I wonder if it will ever be possible to use "two sensors in one" let's say you have a M43 sensor but want a smaller sensor with the same amount of megapixels for superzooming, is it possible to have a 4/3 sensor with 16 MP and a 2/3 sensor with 16 MP in the same camera?

Sony has something very like that. The A7R4 has a full frame 61MP sensor, you can put it into APSC mode and get about 26MP.

Crop the APSC image to M43 dimensions and you will have about 15MP.

Problem is, it's not increasing the pixel density, it's just cropping away area. A m4/3rds pixel density is still higher than any other of the three formats at 20mp so it provides the most "reach" with a given lens. As soon as FF hits 80mp, it'll be equal, plus it'll have the extra area coverage.

I think that's quite a theoretical perspective, from a practical perspective there are quite a few M43 users who got perfectly fine images with a 16MP M43 sensor, cropping the A7R4 by 2 will give the same results.

-- hide signature --

Cheers
Eric
(Any image that I post in a DPR forum may be editted and posted in a DPR forum)

 Eric Nepean's gear list:Eric Nepean's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS7 Panasonic Lumix DMC-TS3 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Olympus E-M1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 +58 more
OutsideTheMatrix
OutsideTheMatrix Veteran Member • Posts: 7,850
Re: Nikon P950: Saturn's rings?

MHshooter wrote:

Eric Nepean wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

MHshooter wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

Max Iso wrote:

It's definitely an interesting feature but i think more so for video. I don't know what the exact crop increase is but since video "rez" output doesn't change from full sensor to ETC, it turns into a pretty neat feature.

Turning on ETC and digital IS on a 4k body is pretty amazing, in the near future im going to try it out on my 1250mm C90 scope. Not sure what the final FL will be but im guessing 3000mm+, maybe even 4000mm.

I think Nikon has a small sensor camera with a very, very long zoom. 3000mm or so. With your scope you could play around and get some interesting photos, I think. Use your imagination. Probably not great for boring bird photos, but be creative is my suggestion.

I have the Nikon P900 and I believe the camera you are referring to is the Nikon P1000. The Nikon P950 is the camera that supports 4K30 video. What I dont know and want to find out is if any camera supports in camera cropping of 2K (for 1080P) videos or in camera cropping of 4K videos. I dont think any M43 cameras do or any camera of the Nikon P series for that matter?

I saw this post today that has several photos using the Nikon P950. One of them is at 6000mm-elf (!!!) and one at 2000mm-efl and another at something like 1800mm-efl:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64422797

Pretty decent, some of them, but it's noisy (chroma) at 100 ISO. What they need to do is try an APS with a 200-500mm lens at 500mm and the 950 at some focal length around 2000mm equivalent, reduce the size of the 950 shot to match the 500mm end on the APS and see how they compare. Though I wouldn't push the 950 past 400 ISO.

I wonder if it will ever be possible to use "two sensors in one" let's say you have a M43 sensor but want a smaller sensor with the same amount of megapixels for superzooming, is it possible to have a 4/3 sensor with 16 MP and a 2/3 sensor with 16 MP in the same camera?

Sony has something very like that. The A7R4 has a full frame 61MP sensor, you can put it into APSC mode and get about 26MP.

Crop the APSC image to M43 dimensions and you will have about 15MP.

Problem is, it's not increasing the pixel density, it's just cropping away area. A m4/3rds pixel density is still higher than any other of the three formats at 20mp so it provides the most "reach" with a given lens. As soon as FF hits 80mp, it'll be equal, plus it'll have the extra area coverage.

I created a thread in the Sony forum to see a comparison between the Sony A6xxx series with the 70-350 lens and Oly 75-300 lens on an Oly 4/3 body on imaging Saturn's rings. Looks like the resolution is fairly similar (one is 24 MP while the other is 16 MP).

You can make out the separation between the rings and the planet using either combo.

Eric or anyone else who is mathematically inclined, can you do a comparison between 24 MP Sony A6600 with the 70-350 lens vs the 16 MP Olympus EM10Mk2 with the 75-300 lens in terms of how many pixels the planet Saturn and its rings cover in each case and if the separation between the planet and the rings is similar in each case, which seems to be true based on my eye test?

Here is the thread where Saturn images with each combo are posted and a link included to the Oly thread:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64453459

Of course it's going to be better with the Nikon P900/950/1000 (I have the P900). But there are features on the Sony and Oly cameras that the Nikon superzooms do not have.

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In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

 OutsideTheMatrix's gear list:OutsideTheMatrix's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P900 Olympus PEN E-PL6 Olympus OM-D E-M10 II Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm 1:3.5-5.6 II R Olympus M.Zuiko ED 75-300mm 1:4.8-6.7 II +9 more
OldGuy-Yuri Regular Member • Posts: 237
1200mm: Digital Teleconverter, revisited
5

So, I've revived this thread because I have some new comparo images for the DIgital Teleconverter.
I was hiking the Santa Ynez River Canyon/Red Rocks just over the mtns from Santa Barbara. A super nice day, with wonderful light.
Took some shots of a Red Shoulder Hawk with the Digital Teleconverter and without, hoping to get enough differentiation from the very similar colors of the Canyon Walls.no luck... Hawk was well camouflaged.
So I also took some shots of the Canyon, just below Gibraltar Dam, and realized I had left the Teleconverter ON. So I took similar shots with the DIgital Teleconverter OFF (not really thinking of doing a comparo...)
After looking at both sets of images, I realized that there was very little difference!
Speaks a lot for the value of the DTC.
Below are 2 similar images - 1st is the non-DTC image, 2nd using the DTC.
shot with my EM5-ii & 14-150, no post done, OOC jpgs with full EXIF. SLight difference in focal length because I wasn't really intending a comparo - non-DTC is 42mm , DTC is 31mm, so 62 mm realized by the DTC.
Given certain situations, the DTC seems very much a viable tool when you want/need a focal length not available with the lenses you might have available. This really broadens the opportunities for what can be done with Oly cameras.

EM5-ii, Oly 14-150, 42mm with no digital teleconverter

Em5-ii, Oly 14-150, 31mm - Digital Teleconverter used, so 62mm as shown.

Thx
Yuri

-- hide signature --

Cold-hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colours from our sight
Red is grey is yellow white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion - Graham Edge

Eric Nepean
Eric Nepean Veteran Member • Posts: 5,658
Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter, revisited

OldGuy-Yuri wrote:

So, I've revived this thread because I have some new comparo images for the DIgital Teleconverter.
I was hiking the Santa Ynez River Canyon/Red Rocks just over the mtns from Santa Barbara. A super nice day, with wonderful light.
Took some shots of a Red Shoulder Hawk with the Digital Teleconverter and without, hoping to get enough differentiation from the very similar colors of the Canyon Walls.no luck... Hawk was well camouflaged.
So I also took some shots of the Canyon, just below Gibraltar Dam, and realized I had left the Teleconverter ON. So I took similar shots with the DIgital Teleconverter OFF (not really thinking of doing a comparo...)
After looking at both sets of images, I realized that there was very little difference!
Speaks a lot for the value of the DTC.
Below are 2 similar images - 1st is the non-DTC image, 2nd using the DTC.
shot with my EM5-ii & 14-150, no post done, OOC jpgs with full EXIF. SLight difference in focal length because I wasn't really intending a comparo - non-DTC is 42mm , DTC is 31mm, so 62 mm realized by the DTC.
Given certain situations, the DTC seems very much a viable tool when you want/need a focal length not available with the lenses you might have available. This really broadens the opportunities for what can be done with Oly cameras.

EM5-ii, Oly 14-150, 42mm with no digital teleconverter

Em5-ii, Oly 14-150, 31mm - Digital Teleconverter used, so 62mm as shown.

Thx
Yuri

Bravo for providing some real life images and taking a careful look at the DTC.

I've also onbserved that the 2xDTC on both Panasonic and Olympus cameras is rather better than one would expect and can be quite useful.

Unfortunately the magnification of the two images you provide doesn't lead itself to a good comparison - if you happened to have a pair where the two FL was closer to 2:1 that would be useful.

-- hide signature --

Cheers
Eric
(Feel free to edit and repost any image that I have posted in a DPR, as long as you identify me as the original poster)

 Eric Nepean's gear list:Eric Nepean's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS7 Panasonic Lumix DMC-TS3 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Olympus E-M1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 +58 more
OldGuy-Yuri Regular Member • Posts: 237
Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter, revisited
1

Eric Nepean wrote:

Bravo for providing some real life images and taking a careful look at the DTC.

I've also onbserved that the 2xDTC on both Panasonic and Olympus cameras is rather better than one would expect and can be quite useful.

Unfortunately the magnification of the two images you provide doesn't lead itself to a good comparison - if you happened to have a pair where the two FL was closer to 2:1 that would be useful.

Yeah, you're correct. As I stated, it wasn't intended to be a comparo. The results, however, were worth re-opening the discussion.
Given this I will prolly try to plan a comparo session - with different parameters.
Using different settings

Take 3 images - one optical at a base FL, then another using optical FL zoom at 2x, and then the original base FL with the DTC - so a comparo can be made with a 'crop' comparo to DTC; and also optical same FL to realized DTC done at the resultant FL.
So compare the effect of cropping vs DTC, and the actual optical 
f8 instead of f14 - since most lenses start falling off the roof after f11...
Base ISO of 200 rather than the 1000 I used on these.
There are many other Qs which come up, when considering the possibilities of DTC.
Like, action/sports,fast movement photography - WIll DTC work? How will it react when one tries to use sequential bursts? Will burst speed be affected? How does it react under CAF? 
Given everything I see now, DTC really is quite an amazing feature. Much better than I expected, and a useful extension of computatonal photography.
If we saddle all new/current photography with the requirement of ultimate pixel resolution, we lose sight of what makes photographic expression broad and compelling.
And we would have only documents/history/encyclopedic entries.
Images like Dorothea Lange's - Migrant Mother (1936) would only be a historic document, not the absolutely wonderful art it is.

Dorothea Lange - Migrant Mother,  Nipomo  1936 
Or George Shiras' - Moose in the Mist (1909)

George Shiras - Moose in the Mist  1909

I choose to want it all!  LOL!
Thx
Yuri

-- hide signature --

Cold-hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colours from our sight
Red is grey is yellow white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion - Graham Edge

OutsideTheMatrix
OutsideTheMatrix Veteran Member • Posts: 7,850
Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter, revisited

OldGuy-Yuri wrote:

Eric Nepean wrote:

Bravo for providing some real life images and taking a careful look at the DTC.

I've also onbserved that the 2xDTC on both Panasonic and Olympus cameras is rather better than one would expect and can be quite useful.

Unfortunately the magnification of the two images you provide doesn't lead itself to a good comparison - if you happened to have a pair where the two FL was closer to 2:1 that would be useful.

Yeah, you're correct. As I stated, it wasn't intended to be a comparo. The results, however, were worth re-opening the discussion.
Given this I will prolly try to plan a comparo session - with different parameters.
Using different settings

Take 3 images - one optical at a base FL, then another using optical FL zoom at 2x, and then the original base FL with the DTC - so a comparo can be made with a 'crop' comparo to DTC; and also optical same FL to realized DTC done at the resultant FL.
So compare the effect of cropping vs DTC, and the actual optical
f8 instead of f14 - since most lenses start falling off the roof after f11...
Base ISO of 200 rather than the 1000 I used on these.
There are many other Qs which come up, when considering the possibilities of DTC.
Like, action/sports,fast movement photography - WIll DTC work? How will it react when one tries to use sequential bursts? Will burst speed be affected? How does it react under CAF?
Given everything I see now, DTC really is quite an amazing feature. Much better than I expected, and a useful extension of computatonal photography.
If we saddle all new/current photography with the requirement of ultimate pixel resolution, we lose sight of what makes photographic expression broad and compelling.
And we would have only documents/history/encyclopedic entries.
Images like Dorothea Lange's - Migrant Mother (1936) would only be a historic document, not the absolutely wonderful art it is.

Dorothea Lange - Migrant Mother, Nipomo 1936

Or George Shiras' - Moose in the Mist (1909)

George Shiras - Moose in the Mist 1909

I choose to want it all! LOL!
Thx
Yuri

PS I think x2 DTC has great usage for making movies too- far better than the "digital movie teleconverter" movie effect.

-- hide signature --

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

 OutsideTheMatrix's gear list:OutsideTheMatrix's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P900 Olympus PEN E-PL6 Olympus OM-D E-M10 II Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm 1:3.5-5.6 II R Olympus M.Zuiko ED 75-300mm 1:4.8-6.7 II +9 more
MHshooter
MHshooter Senior Member • Posts: 1,010
Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter, revisited

The real test of a digital teleconverter is to compare it to post-processing enlargement of the image to see which method works better.  Neither will gain you any more detail, but it can kind of "fake it" to allow closer cropping or enlargement.

Eric Nepean
Eric Nepean Veteran Member • Posts: 5,658
Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter, revisited

OldGuy-Yuri wrote:

Eric Nepean wrote:

Bravo for providing some real life images and taking a careful look at the DTC.

I've also onbserved that the 2xDTC on both Panasonic and Olympus cameras is rather better than one would expect and can be quite useful.

Unfortunately the magnification of the two images you provide doesn't lead itself to a good comparison - if you happened to have a pair where the two FL was closer to 2:1 that would be useful.

Yeah, you're correct. As I stated, it wasn't intended to be a comparo. The results, however, were worth re-opening the discussion.
Given this I will prolly try to plan a comparo session - with different parameters.
Using different settings

Take 3 images - one optical at a base FL, then another using optical FL zoom at 2x, and then the original base FL with the DTC - so a comparo can be made with a 'crop' comparo to DTC; and also optical same FL to realized DTC done at the resultant FL.
So compare the effect of cropping vs DTC, and the actual optical
f8 instead of f14 - since most lenses start falling off the roof after f11...
Base ISO of 200 rather than the 1000 I used on these.
There are many other Qs which come up, when considering the possibilities of DTC.
Like, action/sports,fast movement photography - WIll DTC work? How will it react when one tries to use sequential bursts? Will burst speed be affected? How does it react under CAF?
Given everything I see now, DTC really is quite an amazing feature. Much better than I expected, and a useful extension of computatonal photography.

I agree. I've done some tsting with 2X and 4X DTC on Panasonic, my conclusion is that 2X DTC is amazingly good, but 4X DTC is significantly degrades IQ.

DTC doesn't seem to degrade AFS function.  I don't uses CAF much, and CAF Tracking not at all, so its difficult to comment on that.

If we saddle all new/current photography with the requirement of ultimate pixel resolution, we lose sight of what makes photographic expression broad and compelling.

Well stated.

And we would have only documents/history/encyclopedic entries.
Images like Dorothea Lange's - Migrant Mother (1936) would only be a historic document, not the absolutely wonderful art it is.

Dorothea Lange - Migrant Mother, Nipomo 1936

Or George Shiras' - Moose in the Mist (1909)

George Shiras - Moose in the Mist 1909

I choose to want it all! LOL!
Thx
Yuri

-- hide signature --

Cheers
Eric
(Feel free to edit and repost any image that I have posted in a DPR, as long as you identify me as the original poster)

 Eric Nepean's gear list:Eric Nepean's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS7 Panasonic Lumix DMC-TS3 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Olympus E-M1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 +58 more
OutsideTheMatrix
OutsideTheMatrix Veteran Member • Posts: 7,850
Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter, revisited

Eric Nepean wrote:

OldGuy-Yuri wrote:

Eric Nepean wrote:

Bravo for providing some real life images and taking a careful look at the DTC.

I've also onbserved that the 2xDTC on both Panasonic and Olympus cameras is rather better than one would expect and can be quite useful.

Unfortunately the magnification of the two images you provide doesn't lead itself to a good comparison - if you happened to have a pair where the two FL was closer to 2:1 that would be useful.

Yeah, you're correct. As I stated, it wasn't intended to be a comparo. The results, however, were worth re-opening the discussion.
Given this I will prolly try to plan a comparo session - with different parameters.
Using different settings

Take 3 images - one optical at a base FL, then another using optical FL zoom at 2x, and then the original base FL with the DTC - so a comparo can be made with a 'crop' comparo to DTC; and also optical same FL to realized DTC done at the resultant FL.
So compare the effect of cropping vs DTC, and the actual optical
f8 instead of f14 - since most lenses start falling off the roof after f11...
Base ISO of 200 rather than the 1000 I used on these.
There are many other Qs which come up, when considering the possibilities of DTC.
Like, action/sports,fast movement photography - WIll DTC work? How will it react when one tries to use sequential bursts? Will burst speed be affected? How does it react under CAF?
Given everything I see now, DTC really is quite an amazing feature. Much better than I expected, and a useful extension of computatonal photography.

I agree. I've done some tsting with 2X and 4X DTC on Panasonic, my conclusion is that 2X DTC is amazingly good, but 4X DTC is significantly degrades IQ.

DTC doesn't seem to degrade AFS function. I don't uses CAF much, and CAF Tracking not at all, so its difficult to comment on that.

If we saddle all new/current photography with the requirement of ultimate pixel resolution, we lose sight of what makes photographic expression broad and compelling.

Well stated.

And we would have only documents/history/encyclopedic entries.
Images like Dorothea Lange's - Migrant Mother (1936) would only be a historic document, not the absolutely wonderful art it is.

Dorothea Lange - Migrant Mother, Nipomo 1936

Or George Shiras' - Moose in the Mist (1909)

George Shiras - Moose in the Mist 1909

I choose to want it all! LOL!
Thx
Yuri

Do you think DTC should work well with video mode too?  They wouldnt need to interpolate at all at 1080P!  I wonder if it works that way?

Also do you think that 4x on Sony Alpha cameras is similarly unusable and 2x is the way to go on all these systems/

-- hide signature --

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

 OutsideTheMatrix's gear list:OutsideTheMatrix's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P900 Olympus PEN E-PL6 Olympus OM-D E-M10 II Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm 1:3.5-5.6 II R Olympus M.Zuiko ED 75-300mm 1:4.8-6.7 II +9 more
OutsideTheMatrix
OutsideTheMatrix Veteran Member • Posts: 7,850
Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter, revisited

OldGuy-Yuri wrote:

Eric Nepean wrote:

Bravo for providing some real life images and taking a careful look at the DTC.

I've also onbserved that the 2xDTC on both Panasonic and Olympus cameras is rather better than one would expect and can be quite useful.

Unfortunately the magnification of the two images you provide doesn't lead itself to a good comparison - if you happened to have a pair where the two FL was closer to 2:1 that would be useful.

Yeah, you're correct. As I stated, it wasn't intended to be a comparo. The results, however, were worth re-opening the discussion.
Given this I will prolly try to plan a comparo session - with different parameters.
Using different settings

Take 3 images - one optical at a base FL, then another using optical FL zoom at 2x, and then the original base FL with the DTC - so a comparo can be made with a 'crop' comparo to DTC; and also optical same FL to realized DTC done at the resultant FL.
So compare the effect of cropping vs DTC, and the actual optical
f8 instead of f14 - since most lenses start falling off the roof after f11...
Base ISO of 200 rather than the 1000 I used on these.
There are many other Qs which come up, when considering the possibilities of DTC.
Like, action/sports,fast movement photography - WIll DTC work? How will it react when one tries to use sequential bursts? Will burst speed be affected? How does it react under CAF?
Given everything I see now, DTC really is quite an amazing feature. Much better than I expected, and a useful extension of computatonal photography.
If we saddle all new/current photography with the requirement of ultimate pixel resolution, we lose sight of what makes photographic expression broad and compelling.
And we would have only documents/history/encyclopedic entries.
Images like Dorothea Lange's - Migrant Mother (1936) would only be a historic document, not the absolutely wonderful art it is.

Dorothea Lange - Migrant Mother, Nipomo 1936

Or George Shiras' - Moose in the Mist (1909)

George Shiras - Moose in the Mist 1909

I choose to want it all! LOL!
Thx
Yuri

Burst speed is affected, to get maximum burst speeds I reduced resolution to 8 MP with 2x DTC

-- hide signature --

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

 OutsideTheMatrix's gear list:OutsideTheMatrix's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P900 Olympus PEN E-PL6 Olympus OM-D E-M10 II Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm 1:3.5-5.6 II R Olympus M.Zuiko ED 75-300mm 1:4.8-6.7 II +9 more
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