1200mm: Digital Teleconverter

Started 9 months ago | Discussions
alcelc
alcelc Forum Pro • Posts: 14,916
Re: 3000mm or 4000mm
1

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

Max Iso wrote:

It's definitely an interesting feature but i think more so for video. I don't know what the exact crop increase is but since video "rez" output doesn't change from full sensor to ETC, it turns into a pretty neat feature.

Turning on ETC and digital IS on a 4k body is pretty amazing, in the near future im going to try it out on my 1250mm C90 scope. Not sure what the final FL will be but im guessing 3000mm+, maybe even 4000mm.

I think Nikon has a small sensor camera with a very, very long zoom. 3000mm or so. With your scope you could play around and get some interesting photos, I think. Use your imagination. Probably not great for boring bird photos, but be creative is my suggestion.

I have the Nikon P900 and I believe the camera you are referring to is the Nikon P1000. The Nikon P950 is the camera that supports 4K30 video. What I dont know and want to find out is if any camera supports in camera cropping of 2K (for 1080P) videos or in camera cropping of 4K videos. I dont think any M43 cameras do

Not sure on Oly, Panny does.

The ETC of Panny comes with 2 options. One give a effect for Still and one for Video.

or any camera of the Nikon P series for that matter?

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In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

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Albert
** Please feel free to download the original image I posted here and edit it as you like **

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Eric Nepean
Eric Nepean Veteran Member • Posts: 5,660
Re: Not Interpolation Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

Eric Nepean wrote:

Note that the Digital Teleconverter function is only for JPEG files, it is not available for RAW files.

There is a reason for that.

Typical JPEG processing discards well over half the image detail.

Building a really good interpolater is an expensive and tricky job. Hard to do and hard to maintain.

It would be downright crazy to throw out much of the image data, and then develop an expensive and tricky interpolation function to bring it back.

IMO what Panasonic and Olympus have done is selected the center portion of the image, and tweaked the JPEG engine to keep much more of the detail.

JPEG typically averages color values are typically average over at least 4 adjacent pixels, simply not averaging will provide the required detail.

In the Luma channel, much of the detailed information is discarded by normalising the DFT results with the quantisation matrix and rounding. Changing the quantization matrix is a straightforward way to keep a lot more detail.

This explains why the DTC is not available in RAW.

But it is only throwing away data that is outside the area of interest and which may not be of any interest to the photographer. I shoot RAW+JPG now (only the JPG file part shows the DTC), why doesn't Oly make the x2 DTC filter available in Work Space so people can apply it to their RAWs? It should work the same way! Also, I sometimes use M size 5 MP for x2 DTC to get a nearly non interpolated result (5 MP vs 4 MP not much different) to get a much faster burst shooting rate, especially with the fully electronic shutter on my EM10Mk2.

But when using x2 DTC at the full 16 MP I do see more crater detail on the moon than I see without the DTC.

The RAW image contains the RGB values of every pixel. This is all the detail that was captured. Some of it is already interpolated, because every pixel is either Red or Green or Blue, and the other two colors are interpolated from adjacent pixels.

No more detail than this can be extracted from the sensor.

Example:

You have a G9, which has a 20MP sensor and no lowpass filter. You have mounted a good quality 25mm lens, and it is focussed on a wall 41 feet away.

The vertical field of view is 21 feet 3 inches (6.5m), and the sensor has 3872 pixels in the vertical direction.

Each pixel covers an area 1/16 x 1/16 inch (1.67mm x 1.67mm)

Pasted to the wall is a sheet of paper with two lines of text, printed 1/16th of an inch tall:

Donald Trump will win the USA 2020 election

Donald Trump will lose the USA 2020 election

The camera takes an image.

With 1 pixel per letter height, there is no interpolation software in the world that will bring the information in these lines back. You could just as well have written

Outside the Matrix will be the next US president

However if you add in 4x optical teleconvertor, there will be 4 pixels per per line of text, and 3-4 pixels per character, you should be able to read that.

Building a 2X or 4X Digtial TC  for a RAW image isn't possible.

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Cheers
Eric
(Any image that I post in a DPR forum may be editted and posted in a DPR forum)

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OutsideTheMatrix
OutsideTheMatrix Veteran Member • Posts: 7,850
Re: Pseudo 1200mm-efl with 75-300mm f4.8-6.7 II

Henry Richardson wrote:

All the photos I have posted in this thread were taken at 300mm f6.7 (wide open) and that is supposed to be the worst focal length and the worst aperture at 300mm. Personally, I find that as long as I take care about camera shake (IBIS helps a lot, but at such a long focal length you need to take great care to keep the camera steady), atmospheric haze, etc. that it is still quite sharp. Using the DTC you are getting the central 25% of the image, which is the sharpest part, to interpolate from.

I should note that in all my shots I sort of screwed up because I had left my camera set to JPEG Normal rather than Fine or Super Fine. The results would have been slightly better using Super Fine or Fine instead of Normal. Having said that, even at Normal I was satisfied, particularly if the 20mp (or 16mp) file was downsized some.

I haven't used the DTC since 2017 when my 75-300mm was new. I was having a ball with it for awhile taking very long telephoto shots at 300mm with DTC (pseudo 1200mm-efl) and without DTC (600mm-efl). Now I feel like taking it out for a spin again.

On these forums one often gets the impression that long telephotos are just for birds or the moon. And one often gets the impression on these forums that wide angles are just for landscapes. I suggest that you use your imagination.

Not only are you getting the sharpest part of the frame, but you also eliminate the vignetting that happens at f/6.7 and 300mm without the x2 DTC!

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In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

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OutsideTheMatrix
OutsideTheMatrix Veteran Member • Posts: 7,850
Re: Not Interpolation Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter

good point and god forbid on two of three of those outcomes (you can guess which two lol)....... but let's say I am trying to create a 16 bit TIFF from the RAW file, shouldn't there be a way to apply a x2 DTC to that (and compare it to the x DTC JPG from in camera?)

Also, what are the other two colors besides RGB? I'm curious- are they Yellow and Magenta (and what about Cyan?)

-- hide signature --

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

 OutsideTheMatrix's gear list:OutsideTheMatrix's gear list
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JakeJY Senior Member • Posts: 5,054
Re: Not Interpolation Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter
1

Eric Nepean wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

But it is only throwing away data that is outside the area of interest and which may not be of any interest to the photographer. I shoot RAW+JPG now (only the JPG file part shows the DTC), why doesn't Oly make the x2 DTC filter available in Work Space so people can apply it to their RAWs? It should work the same way! Also, I sometimes use M size 5 MP for x2 DTC to get a nearly non interpolated result (5 MP vs 4 MP not much different) to get a much faster burst shooting rate, especially with the fully electronic shutter on my EM10Mk2.

But when using x2 DTC at the full 16 MP I do see more crater detail on the moon than I see without the DTC.

The RAW image contains the RGB values of every pixel. This is all the detail that was captured. Some of it is already interpolated, because every pixel is either Red or Green or Blue, and the other two colors are interpolated from adjacent pixels.

RAW contains the non-interpolated results as far as I know. It basically gives the value for each pixel and then during RAW processing is when you actually interpolate/demosaic and get the RGB values. The only pixels that may be already interpolated in the RAW file are the PDAF pixels and also pixel mapping (to fix dead or stuck pixels).

No more detail than this can be extracted from the sensor.

Example:

You have a G9, which has a 20MP sensor and no lowpass filter. You have mounted a good quality 25mm lens, and it is focussed on a wall 41 feet away.

The vertical field of view is 21 feet 3 inches (6.5m), and the sensor has 3872 pixels in the vertical direction.

Each pixel covers an area 1/16 x 1/16 inch (1.67mm x 1.67mm)

Pasted to the wall is a sheet of paper with two lines of text, printed 1/16th of an inch tall:

Donald Trump will win the USA 2020 election

Donald Trump will lose the USA 2020 election

The camera takes an image.

With 1 pixel per letter height, there is no interpolation software in the world that will bring the information in these lines back. You could just as well have written

Outside the Matrix will be the next US president

However if you add in 4x optical teleconvertor, there will be 4 pixels per per line of text, and 3-4 pixels per character, you should be able to read that.

Building a 2X or 4X Digtial TC for a RAW image isn't possible.

I don't think he is talking about necessarily doing the same as digital zoom, but rather just to do a cropped RAW. That should be theoretically possible. Camera only needs to read a smaller portion and write to the RAW file with that crop. Fuji uses a mode similar to that with a 1.25x crop to get faster burst speeds.

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tkbslc Forum Pro • Posts: 15,764
Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter
2

Looks pretty good with enough light.   It's basically turning your 20MP 2x crop sensor into a 5MP 4x crop sensor.   So you should still be at least as good as any crazy superzoom compact ( like a Canon SX60 that goes to 1365mm equiv at 5.6x crop.)  Nice trick to have in the bag for when you need it.

I found the DTC to be a bit better than cropping and resizing in post.  They have a good algorithm for doing so at time of capture.  Plus it's easier to frame and focus.

OutsideTheMatrix
OutsideTheMatrix Veteran Member • Posts: 7,850
Re: Not Interpolation Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter

JakeJY wrote:

Eric Nepean wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

But it is only throwing away data that is outside the area of interest and which may not be of any interest to the photographer. I shoot RAW+JPG now (only the JPG file part shows the DTC), why doesn't Oly make the x2 DTC filter available in Work Space so people can apply it to their RAWs? It should work the same way! Also, I sometimes use M size 5 MP for x2 DTC to get a nearly non interpolated result (5 MP vs 4 MP not much different) to get a much faster burst shooting rate, especially with the fully electronic shutter on my EM10Mk2.

But when using x2 DTC at the full 16 MP I do see more crater detail on the moon than I see without the DTC.

The RAW image contains the RGB values of every pixel. This is all the detail that was captured. Some of it is already interpolated, because every pixel is either Red or Green or Blue, and the other two colors are interpolated from adjacent pixels.

RAW contains the non-interpolated results as far as I know. It basically gives the value for each pixel and then during RAW processing is when you actually interpolate/demosaic and get the RGB values. The only pixels that may be already interpolated in the RAW file are the PDAF pixels and also pixel mapping (to fix dead or stuck pixels).

No more detail than this can be extracted from the sensor.

Example:

You have a G9, which has a 20MP sensor and no lowpass filter. You have mounted a good quality 25mm lens, and it is focussed on a wall 41 feet away.

The vertical field of view is 21 feet 3 inches (6.5m), and the sensor has 3872 pixels in the vertical direction.

Each pixel covers an area 1/16 x 1/16 inch (1.67mm x 1.67mm)

Pasted to the wall is a sheet of paper with two lines of text, printed 1/16th of an inch tall:

Donald Trump will win the USA 2020 election

Donald Trump will lose the USA 2020 election

The camera takes an image.

With 1 pixel per letter height, there is no interpolation software in the world that will bring the information in these lines back. You could just as well have written

Outside the Matrix will be the next US president

However if you add in 4x optical teleconvertor, there will be 4 pixels per per line of text, and 3-4 pixels per character, you should be able to read that.

Building a 2X or 4X Digtial TC for a RAW image isn't possible.

I don't think he is talking about necessarily doing the same as digital zoom, but rather just to do a cropped RAW. That should be theoretically possible. Camera only needs to read a smaller portion and write to the RAW file with that crop. Fuji uses a mode similar to that with a 1.25x crop to get faster burst speeds.

Yes thats why I'm thinking of using M size 5 MP and combining that with x2 DTC.  Would the RAW still be 16 MP?  If that's the case this might only be useful for JPG only mode for faster burst speeds as I could do M F 5 MP JPG and perhaps get over spec in fps with the electronic shutter.

-- hide signature --

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

 OutsideTheMatrix's gear list:OutsideTheMatrix's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P900 Olympus PEN E-PL6 Olympus OM-D E-M10 II Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm 1:3.5-5.6 II R Olympus M.Zuiko ED 75-300mm 1:4.8-6.7 II +9 more
Eric Nepean
Eric Nepean Veteran Member • Posts: 5,660
Re: Not Interpolation Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter
1

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

JakeJY wrote:

Eric Nepean wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

But it is only throwing away data that is outside the area of interest and which may not be of any interest to the photographer. I shoot RAW+JPG now (only the JPG file part shows the DTC), why doesn't Oly make the x2 DTC filter available in Work Space so people can apply it to their RAWs? It should work the same way! Also, I sometimes use M size 5 MP for x2 DTC to get a nearly non interpolated result (5 MP vs 4 MP not much different) to get a much faster burst shooting rate, especially with the fully electronic shutter on my EM10Mk2.

But when using x2 DTC at the full 16 MP I do see more crater detail on the moon than I see without the DTC.

The RAW image contains the RGB values of every pixel. This is all the detail that was captured. Some of it is already interpolated, because every pixel is either Red or Green or Blue, and the other two colors are interpolated from adjacent pixels.

RAW contains the non-interpolated results as far as I know. It basically gives the value for each pixel and then during RAW processing is when you actually interpolate/demosaic and get the RGB values. The only pixels that may be already interpolated in the RAW file are the PDAF pixels and also pixel mapping (to fix dead or stuck pixels).

No more detail than this can be extracted from the sensor.

Example:

You have a G9, which has a 20MP sensor and no lowpass filter. You have mounted a good quality 25mm lens, and it is focussed on a wall 41 feet away.

The vertical field of view is 21 feet 3 inches (6.5m), and the sensor has 3872 pixels in the vertical direction.

Each pixel covers an area 1/16 x 1/16 inch (1.67mm x 1.67mm)

Pasted to the wall is a sheet of paper with two lines of text, printed 1/16th of an inch tall:

Donald Trump will win the USA 2020 election

Donald Trump will lose the USA 2020 election

The camera takes an image.

With 1 pixel per letter height, there is no interpolation software in the world that will bring the information in these lines back. You could just as well have written

Outside the Matrix will be the next US president

However if you add in 4x optical teleconvertor, there will be 4 pixels per per line of text, and 3-4 pixels per character, you should be able to read that.

Building a 2X or 4X Digtial TC for a RAW image isn't possible.

I don't think he is talking about necessarily doing the same as digital zoom, but rather just to do a cropped RAW. That should be theoretically possible. Camera only needs to read a smaller portion and write to the RAW file with that crop. Fuji uses a mode similar to that with a 1.25x crop to get faster burst speeds.

Yes thats why I'm thinking of using M size 5 MP and combining that with x2 DTC. Would the RAW still be 16 MP? If that's the case this might only be useful for JPG only mode for faster burst speeds as I could do M F 5 MP JPG and perhaps get over spec in fps with the electronic shutter.

A cropped RAW is certainly theoretically possible, and I think the implemmentation would not be too difficult.

To the best of my knowledge, Panasonic and and Olympus cameras don't have a feature to crop RAW images in the camera. My Sony A7III can crop from FF to APS-C size; I haven't had time to check but I think the file sizes are smaller (see )

However cropping a RAW image in post processing, should make no difference to the detail resolution compared to cropping a RAW image in the camera. Croppping in PP you get the flexibity of adjusting the crop to better suit the image content at the expense of larger image files.

But DTC is aimed the JPEG shooter.

Going back to my example, let's move the camera to 10 feet from the wall, so that the text becomes larger compared to the image vertical, which is now 62.5 inches.

Displaying the captured image at 15x20 inches, the line of text that is 1/16" high on the wall 10 feet away would be 15 thousands of an inch tall. Most people wouldn't be able to read that without a magnifying glass, and certainly not when 2 feet from the image.

The pixels on the enlarged image are still 3.9 thousands of an inch apart high, so that works out to be almost 4 pixels per character height.

JPEG processing first averages the color over 2x2 blocks of pixels. The it process 8x8 blocks of pixels and removes much of the detail.

Those characters that were 4 pixels high - now become a blur. The sensor captured the detail - JPEG threw it out.

With DTC enabled, after cropping, the JPEG block size is reduced and the amount of discarded detail is reduced, thus retaining almost as much detail as the RAW image, but over a smaller area.

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Cheers
Eric
(Any image that I post in a DPR forum may be editted and posted in a DPR forum)

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OutsideTheMatrix
OutsideTheMatrix Veteran Member • Posts: 7,850
Re: Not Interpolation Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter

Eric Nepean wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

JakeJY wrote:

Eric Nepean wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

But it is only throwing away data that is outside the area of interest and which may not be of any interest to the photographer. I shoot RAW+JPG now (only the JPG file part shows the DTC), why doesn't Oly make the x2 DTC filter available in Work Space so people can apply it to their RAWs? It should work the same way! Also, I sometimes use M size 5 MP for x2 DTC to get a nearly non interpolated result (5 MP vs 4 MP not much different) to get a much faster burst shooting rate, especially with the fully electronic shutter on my EM10Mk2.

But when using x2 DTC at the full 16 MP I do see more crater detail on the moon than I see without the DTC.

The RAW image contains the RGB values of every pixel. This is all the detail that was captured. Some of it is already interpolated, because every pixel is either Red or Green or Blue, and the other two colors are interpolated from adjacent pixels.

RAW contains the non-interpolated results as far as I know. It basically gives the value for each pixel and then during RAW processing is when you actually interpolate/demosaic and get the RGB values. The only pixels that may be already interpolated in the RAW file are the PDAF pixels and also pixel mapping (to fix dead or stuck pixels).

No more detail than this can be extracted from the sensor.

Example:

You have a G9, which has a 20MP sensor and no lowpass filter. You have mounted a good quality 25mm lens, and it is focussed on a wall 41 feet away.

The vertical field of view is 21 feet 3 inches (6.5m), and the sensor has 3872 pixels in the vertical direction.

Each pixel covers an area 1/16 x 1/16 inch (1.67mm x 1.67mm)

Pasted to the wall is a sheet of paper with two lines of text, printed 1/16th of an inch tall:

Donald Trump will win the USA 2020 election

Donald Trump will lose the USA 2020 election

The camera takes an image.

With 1 pixel per letter height, there is no interpolation software in the world that will bring the information in these lines back. You could just as well have written

Outside the Matrix will be the next US president

However if you add in 4x optical teleconvertor, there will be 4 pixels per per line of text, and 3-4 pixels per character, you should be able to read that.

Building a 2X or 4X Digtial TC for a RAW image isn't possible.

I don't think he is talking about necessarily doing the same as digital zoom, but rather just to do a cropped RAW. That should be theoretically possible. Camera only needs to read a smaller portion and write to the RAW file with that crop. Fuji uses a mode similar to that with a 1.25x crop to get faster burst speeds.

Yes thats why I'm thinking of using M size 5 MP and combining that with x2 DTC. Would the RAW still be 16 MP? If that's the case this might only be useful for JPG only mode for faster burst speeds as I could do M F 5 MP JPG and perhaps get over spec in fps with the electronic shutter.

A cropped RAW is certainly theoretically possible, and I think the implemmentation would not be too difficult.

To the best of my knowledge, Panasonic and and Olympus cameras don't have a feature to crop RAW images in the camera. My Sony A7III can crop from FF to APS-C size; I haven't had time to check but I think the file sizes are smaller (see )

However cropping a RAW image in post processing, should make no difference to the detail resolution compared to cropping a RAW image in the camera. Croppping in PP you get the flexibity of adjusting the crop to better suit the image content at the expense of larger image files.

But DTC is aimed the JPEG shooter.

Going back to my example, let's move the camera to 10 feet from the wall, so that the text becomes larger compared to the image vertical, which is now 62.5 inches.

Displaying the captured image at 15x20 inches, the line of text that is 1/16" high on the wall 10 feet away would be 15 thousands of an inch tall. Most people wouldn't be able to read that without a magnifying glass, and certainly not when 2 feet from the image.

The pixels on the enlarged image are still 3.9 thousands of an inch apart high, so that works out to be almost 4 pixels per character height.

JPEG processing first averages the color over 2x2 blocks of pixels. The it process 8x8 blocks of pixels and removes much of the detail.

Those characters that were 4 pixels high - now become a blur. The sensor captured the detail - JPEG threw it out.

With DTC enabled, after cropping, the JPEG block size is reduced and the amount of discarded detail is reduced, thus retaining almost as much detail as the RAW image, but over a smaller area.

hmmm thats a good point, so cropping of RAW in PP is better for proper framing of the crop, but the cropping of RAW in camera has the advantage in terms of write speed?  You just explained why I like in camera DTC it is actually retaining more of the detail even in the JPG image.  That's probably why there's more detail in it than what I see in JPG mode.

Now here's a different question.....okay let's say I am doing RAW+JPG L SF at 300mm on images of the moon (half moon phase so the most crater detail that you can get.)  I use x2 DTC and it shows this in the JPG file.  But I also have the RAW which covers four times the area of the JPG and I decide to export that from WorkSpace as a 16 bit TIFF file using the same in camera settings.  Will that file show more moon crater detail than the x2 DTC L SF JPG even though the latter has 4x the magnification?

-- hide signature --

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

 OutsideTheMatrix's gear list:OutsideTheMatrix's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P900 Olympus PEN E-PL6 Olympus OM-D E-M10 II Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm 1:3.5-5.6 II R Olympus M.Zuiko ED 75-300mm 1:4.8-6.7 II +9 more
JimH123 Senior Member • Posts: 2,801
Re: Not Interpolation Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter
1

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

Eric Nepean wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

JakeJY wrote:

Eric Nepean wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

But it is only throwing away data that is outside the area of interest and which may not be of any interest to the photographer. I shoot RAW+JPG now (only the JPG file part shows the DTC), why doesn't Oly make the x2 DTC filter available in Work Space so people can apply it to their RAWs? It should work the same way! Also, I sometimes use M size 5 MP for x2 DTC to get a nearly non interpolated result (5 MP vs 4 MP not much different) to get a much faster burst shooting rate, especially with the fully electronic shutter on my EM10Mk2.

But when using x2 DTC at the full 16 MP I do see more crater detail on the moon than I see without the DTC.

The RAW image contains the RGB values of every pixel. This is all the detail that was captured. Some of it is already interpolated, because every pixel is either Red or Green or Blue, and the other two colors are interpolated from adjacent pixels.

RAW contains the non-interpolated results as far as I know. It basically gives the value for each pixel and then during RAW processing is when you actually interpolate/demosaic and get the RGB values. The only pixels that may be already interpolated in the RAW file are the PDAF pixels and also pixel mapping (to fix dead or stuck pixels).

No more detail than this can be extracted from the sensor.

Example:

You have a G9, which has a 20MP sensor and no lowpass filter. You have mounted a good quality 25mm lens, and it is focussed on a wall 41 feet away.

The vertical field of view is 21 feet 3 inches (6.5m), and the sensor has 3872 pixels in the vertical direction.

Each pixel covers an area 1/16 x 1/16 inch (1.67mm x 1.67mm)

Pasted to the wall is a sheet of paper with two lines of text, printed 1/16th of an inch tall:

Donald Trump will win the USA 2020 election

Donald Trump will lose the USA 2020 election

The camera takes an image.

With 1 pixel per letter height, there is no interpolation software in the world that will bring the information in these lines back. You could just as well have written

Outside the Matrix will be the next US president

However if you add in 4x optical teleconvertor, there will be 4 pixels per per line of text, and 3-4 pixels per character, you should be able to read that.

Building a 2X or 4X Digtial TC for a RAW image isn't possible.

I don't think he is talking about necessarily doing the same as digital zoom, but rather just to do a cropped RAW. That should be theoretically possible. Camera only needs to read a smaller portion and write to the RAW file with that crop. Fuji uses a mode similar to that with a 1.25x crop to get faster burst speeds.

Yes thats why I'm thinking of using M size 5 MP and combining that with x2 DTC. Would the RAW still be 16 MP? If that's the case this might only be useful for JPG only mode for faster burst speeds as I could do M F 5 MP JPG and perhaps get over spec in fps with the electronic shutter.

A cropped RAW is certainly theoretically possible, and I think the implemmentation would not be too difficult.

To the best of my knowledge, Panasonic and and Olympus cameras don't have a feature to crop RAW images in the camera. My Sony A7III can crop from FF to APS-C size; I haven't had time to check but I think the file sizes are smaller (see )

However cropping a RAW image in post processing, should make no difference to the detail resolution compared to cropping a RAW image in the camera. Croppping in PP you get the flexibity of adjusting the crop to better suit the image content at the expense of larger image files.

But DTC is aimed the JPEG shooter.

Going back to my example, let's move the camera to 10 feet from the wall, so that the text becomes larger compared to the image vertical, which is now 62.5 inches.

Displaying the captured image at 15x20 inches, the line of text that is 1/16" high on the wall 10 feet away would be 15 thousands of an inch tall. Most people wouldn't be able to read that without a magnifying glass, and certainly not when 2 feet from the image.

The pixels on the enlarged image are still 3.9 thousands of an inch apart high, so that works out to be almost 4 pixels per character height.

JPEG processing first averages the color over 2x2 blocks of pixels. The it process 8x8 blocks of pixels and removes much of the detail.

Those characters that were 4 pixels high - now become a blur. The sensor captured the detail - JPEG threw it out.

With DTC enabled, after cropping, the JPEG block size is reduced and the amount of discarded detail is reduced, thus retaining almost as much detail as the RAW image, but over a smaller area.

hmmm thats a good point, so cropping of RAW in PP is better for proper framing of the crop, but the cropping of RAW in camera has the advantage in terms of write speed? You just explained why I like in camera DTC it is actually retaining more of the detail even in the JPG image. That's probably why there's more detail in it than what I see in JPG mode.

Now here's a different question.....okay let's say I am doing RAW+JPG L SF at 300mm on images of the moon (half moon phase so the most crater detail that you can get.) I use x2 DTC and it shows this in the JPG file. But I also have the RAW which covers four times the area of the JPG and I decide to export that from WorkSpace as a 16 bit TIFF file using the same in camera settings. Will that file show more moon crater detail than the x2 DTC L SF JPG even though the latter has 4x the magnification?

The 2x Digital TC is going to show more detail. And this is because it has figured out how to create 3 new pixels for every 1 existing pixel to make your eye see the image with more detail.

I don't have a picture of the moon to show this on. Instead, I will use a Rock Crab. Also, I am going to post process the original in Gigapixel AI to increase the image by 2x. This will represent the digital 2x image that the camera would have produced. But before I show this, keep in mind that the camera DTC is designed to work very fast and is not as good as a resizing program doing it in post processing. So this example has that advantage going for it.

Image 1: Here is the original rock crab image

Image 2: Here is the resized by 2x image done by Gigapixel AI. Actually a bit more than 2x, but lets just suppose 2x)

The second image has more visible detail. the new pixels have been mathematically added to do a best approximation of what each new pixel should be. Your eye makes use of those extra pixels to provide a convincing more detail image.

If you simply increase the size of the 1st image to match the size of the 2nd image, it won't have the new pixels and may start showing pixelization.

By the way, 2x seems to be the max size to still get good IQ. At 2x, 3 new pixels are invented for every 1 pixel in the original.

Let's say we want to expand by 4x? Now, we are going to invent 15 new pixels for every 1 existing pixel. The resizing SW ends up having to make too many guesses and the IQ just isn't as sharp.

Anyway, this example should show you that the resized image will look to have better detail because the detail will be larger and easier to see.

One more point to make. Resizing IQ is dependent upon what is being resized. If an image has not much fine detail, the resizing program has an easy time of it and can do an excellent resize and the resized image will look great. But if the image has very fine detail, the resizing is likely to make mistakes and the image can become messed up.

External SW like Topaz's Gigapixel AI can deal with fine detail better than the in-camera DTC. The background of the rock proves a good example of fine detail.

I found an image of the moon and decided to resize it with Gigapixel by 2x to show how that would look.  I don't spend much effort shooting the moon because after the first few times, it becomes boring.

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JimH123 Senior Member • Posts: 2,801
Re: Not Interpolation Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

JakeJY wrote:

Eric Nepean wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

But it is only throwing away data that is outside the area of interest and which may not be of any interest to the photographer. I shoot RAW+JPG now (only the JPG file part shows the DTC), why doesn't Oly make the x2 DTC filter available in Work Space so people can apply it to their RAWs? It should work the same way! Also, I sometimes use M size 5 MP for x2 DTC to get a nearly non interpolated result (5 MP vs 4 MP not much different) to get a much faster burst shooting rate, especially with the fully electronic shutter on my EM10Mk2.

But when using x2 DTC at the full 16 MP I do see more crater detail on the moon than I see without the DTC.

The RAW image contains the RGB values of every pixel. This is all the detail that was captured. Some of it is already interpolated, because every pixel is either Red or Green or Blue, and the other two colors are interpolated from adjacent pixels.

RAW contains the non-interpolated results as far as I know. It basically gives the value for each pixel and then during RAW processing is when you actually interpolate/demosaic and get the RGB values. The only pixels that may be already interpolated in the RAW file are the PDAF pixels and also pixel mapping (to fix dead or stuck pixels).

No more detail than this can be extracted from the sensor.

Example:

You have a G9, which has a 20MP sensor and no lowpass filter. You have mounted a good quality 25mm lens, and it is focussed on a wall 41 feet away.

The vertical field of view is 21 feet 3 inches (6.5m), and the sensor has 3872 pixels in the vertical direction.

Each pixel covers an area 1/16 x 1/16 inch (1.67mm x 1.67mm)

Pasted to the wall is a sheet of paper with two lines of text, printed 1/16th of an inch tall:

Donald Trump will win the USA 2020 election

Donald Trump will lose the USA 2020 election

The camera takes an image.

With 1 pixel per letter height, there is no interpolation software in the world that will bring the information in these lines back. You could just as well have written

Outside the Matrix will be the next US president

However if you add in 4x optical teleconvertor, there will be 4 pixels per per line of text, and 3-4 pixels per character, you should be able to read that.

Building a 2X or 4X Digtial TC for a RAW image isn't possible.

I don't think he is talking about necessarily doing the same as digital zoom, but rather just to do a cropped RAW. That should be theoretically possible. Camera only needs to read a smaller portion and write to the RAW file with that crop. Fuji uses a mode similar to that with a 1.25x crop to get faster burst speeds.

Yes thats why I'm thinking of using M size 5 MP and combining that with x2 DTC. Would the RAW still be 16 MP? If that's the case this might only be useful for JPG only mode for faster burst speeds as I could do M F 5 MP JPG and perhaps get over spec in fps with the electronic shutter.

There may only be one way to pull the sensor data from the sensor and selecting a smaller JPG resolution may still have to pull all the data from the sensor into the camera.  But once that data is loaded into internal camera memory, then perhaps the processing of the file can be faster and the writing of it to the SD card can be faster.

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OP Henry Richardson Forum Pro • Posts: 19,127
Various uprez programs
3

JimH123 wrote:

I am using an Olympus EM1 with an Onlympus 75-300, along with Topaz's Gigapixel AI followed by Sharpen AI - Stabilize mode.

There is a current thread with discussion of several uprez programs that may be of interest to people here (a number of interesting posts):

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64225401

I think most of the programs work on RGB files, not raw files. Raw data is the basis for in-camera DTC and also for the uprez done by Lightroom, etc.

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OldGuy-Yuri Regular Member • Posts: 240
Re: Various uprez programs
1

Back to DTC...

I thought a useful experiment, for me, would be to compare an image taken w/ DTC and then an image taken w/o, but with FL sized up to 'match' the FL which the DTC created.

so, an image of Pink Ladies in our Open Space tract, taken with my EM5-ii & 14-150mm .
1/20, f10, 320 ISO, 5300 WB, Auto Gradation, -0.3ev, natural mode.
IMPORTANT NOTE - I shoot RAW+LSF... (may prove to be a factor, as noted in my later comment, below)
Images are not exact for FL match, since I did that 'by eye'. The DTC comes from an 18mm (so equiv 36mm) setting and the 'un-DTC'd image is at 38mm.

Side by Side comparos were done and screen shot within Workspace.

Here's the 100% comparo (DTC on left, 'normal' on right)

100% Comparo - Left-DTC @ 18mm, Right -normal @ 38mm

Here's the Full JPG image comparo

Images Comparo Full Frame JPGs - Left DTC 18mm , Right Normal 38mm

So, is DTC a worthy consideration?
Interesting thing is the slightly different 'rendition' as to color, contrast and saturation.
No settings changes were made, about 30 secs between shots on a clear evening sky.
Is this possibly because the JPG engine is rendering the 2 JPG images slightly differently -  because the DTC image is created from the RAW image which encompasses more of the scene and therefore has a different exposure/color balance... ?

Image Comparo - Full Frame RAW - Left DTC 18mm , Right Normal 38mm

I'll prolly use DTC when there's no time do a lens change, image is fleeting, and getting in close as opposed to cropping is a better option - Pixel peeping is not a big thing for me...
Thanks
Yuri

Tatouzou
Tatouzou Senior Member • Posts: 2,050
Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter
1

tkbslc wrote:

Looks pretty good with enough light. It's basically turning your 20MP 2x crop sensor into a 5MP 4x crop sensor. So you should still be at least as good as any crazy superzoom compact ( like a Canon SX60 that goes to 1365mm equiv at 5.6x crop.)

The superzoom compact may have a lens designed to deliver a higher resolution in order to match the sensor much smaller pixels, and thus I am not sure cropping, whether in-camera at capture time or in PP, from a larger sensor can be as sharp.

Nice trick to have in the bag for when you need it.

I found the DTC to be a bit better than cropping and resizing in post. They have a good algorithm for doing so at time of capture. Plus it's easier to frame and focus.

As Henri stated in a previous post, I think that the in-camera ETC uses different demosaicing algorythms for upsizing JPEGs than most PP general purpose suites, aka Lightroom or Capture1.

LR, for instance, seems to use always the same Bayer oriented demosaicing logic, whatever the imput file. Hence the subpar performance when processing Fuji X-trans files.

But some specialized upsizing softwares may also have refined the way they process raw datas for upscaled JPEGs.

From what I have read in DPreview threads about Google Pixel, advanced software may deliver impressive sharpness and resolution in digitally zoomed phone cameras.

IMO, ETC is a convenient tool for easier aiming and focusing when you dont have enough optical reach, and, later, save time in PP.

It is a convenience for still shooters and it really shines when shooting videos, as 4K for instance is somewhere around 8MP/10MP (depending the native sensor capture ratio).

But there is no free lunch and if you do a lot of telephoto, it wont replace a longer lens.

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OutsideTheMatrix
OutsideTheMatrix Veteran Member • Posts: 7,850
Re: Not Interpolation Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter

excellent examples, Jim and exactly what I was looking for!

The planets of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn might be of more interest with x2 DTC.  I saw an image on here where you could clearly see Cassini's Division in Saturn's rings using x2 DTC on the 75-300 lens, but not without x2 DTC (or maybe just barely without it, but clearly with it.)  I think you should be able to see the Martian Ice Cap as well as the bands on Jupiter with x2 DTC also.

But a question I had was, what do you think is the best utilization of x2 DTC.....using L size 16 mp or  M size 5 mp (or 8 mp), and also does the compression rate of JPG matter for x2 DTC or does DTC do its magic before compression is done (that would be better.)

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In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
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OutsideTheMatrix
OutsideTheMatrix Veteran Member • Posts: 7,850
Re: Various uprez programs

excellent examples- I was wondering if compression rate has much of an effect on x2 DTC or even if doing it at M size 5 mp or 8 mp might be better than L size 16 mp

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In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
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OutsideTheMatrix
OutsideTheMatrix Veteran Member • Posts: 7,850
Re: Olympus 100-400mm: 1600mm

Henry Richardson wrote:

Using the new Olympus 100-400mm and the 2x Digital Teleconverter results in a pseudo 1600mm-efl view. Wild.

For me the fun of using the DTC sometimes is at the extreme telephoto end. Not interesting to me using it for a 25mm, 50mm, 100mm, etc. FL.

it might match some of the more extreme superzooms   I have found using x2 DTC with the 75-300 lens comes close to matching the Nikon P900 at 2000mm EFL!

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In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

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OutsideTheMatrix
OutsideTheMatrix Veteran Member • Posts: 7,850
Re: 1200mm: Digital Teleconverter

it's an excellent thing to test, and I've found the 75-300 lens with x2 DTC is a close match for the Nikon P900 at 2000mm EFL.  Amount of detail shown is almost the same, even if somewhat smaller.

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In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

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OutsideTheMatrix
OutsideTheMatrix Veteran Member • Posts: 7,850
Re: Used Canon 1200mm for $180,000

Henry Richardson wrote:

You could instead buy a used Canon 1200mm f5.6 for $180,000 and a Canon DSLR since that is also an option:

https://petapixel.com/2015/04/28/bh-is-selling-a-used-canon-1200mm-f5-6l-lens-for-just-180000/

Up Close with the Canon EF 1200mm f/5.6 L USM Lens

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/find/newsLetter/Canon-EF-1200mm.jsp

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EF_1200mm_lens

With extreme care and perfect conditions you will be able to get great results with that lens. Or for about $400 (that is how much I paid for my new Olympus 75-300mm II) and DTC you can often get pretty close since atmosphere, heat waves, haze, etc. often degrades long distance photos anyway. For closer photos then the Canon has the edge. But not too close because the Canon's minimum focus distance is 49.5 feet (15 meters)!!! The Olympus focuses to less than 3 feet (90 centimeters).

By the way, even when I occasionally shoot at pseudo 1200mm-efl I do it handheld in a small, light kit. Try that with the Canon 1200mm + 1D level DSLR.

lol good point and the 75-300 lens with x2 DTC is competitive even with the Nikon P900 at 2000mm efl!

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In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

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OP Henry Richardson Forum Pro • Posts: 19,127
Protection Filters: Necessary or Nuisance?
4

Henry Richardson wrote:

All the photos I have posted in this thread were taken at 300mm f6.7 (wide open) and that is supposed to be the worst focal length and the worst aperture at 300mm. Personally, I find that as long as I take care about camera shake (IBIS helps a lot, but at such a long focal length you need to take great care to keep the camera steady), atmospheric haze, etc. that it is still quite sharp. Using the DTC you are getting the central 25% of the image, which is the sharpest part, to interpolate from.

I should note that in all my shots I sort of screwed up because I had left my camera set to JPEG Normal rather than Fine or Super Fine. The results would have been slightly better using Super Fine or Fine instead of Normal. Having said that, even at Normal I was satisfied, particularly if the 20mp (or 16mp) file was downsized some.

I haven't used the DTC since 2017 when my 75-300mm was new. I was having a ball with it for awhile taking very long telephoto shots at 300mm with DTC (pseudo 1200mm-efl) and without DTC (600mm-efl). Now I feel like taking it out for a spin again.

On these forums one often gets the impression that long telephotos are just for birds or the moon. And one often gets the impression on these forums that wide angles are just for landscapes. I suggest that you use your imagination.

I also had a protection filter on the lens.  I am generally not an anal-retentive type of person so I usually keep one on all my lenses and only take it off in certain cases (night time with strong light sources, etc.) which I know will likely cause problems.

Should you use a UV, clear, or haze filter on your camera lens, or is it just an unnecessary nuisance that may degrade the quality of your photos?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8hAKgwWj9A

Good video and worth watching. It is what I have done for years.

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Henry Richardson
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