Leibovitz attacked for not photographing someone right

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Old Greenlander Senior Member • Posts: 4,268
Re: Leibovitz attacked for not photographing someone right

Pictures in the article are good

the cover not so much

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MHshooter
OP MHshooter Contributing Member • Posts: 772
Re: Leibovitz and Vogue have been doing the dark, matte skin thing for years

saltydogstudios wrote:

MHshooter wrote:

Ellis Vener wrote:

And not just for people with darkly pigmented skin. It goes back to at least the early 2000's.

The "lack of shine" and "ashy" quality is what many of the people going after her on Twitter are complaining about. I'm not black but maybe including that shine is a cultural norm Vogue's editor should be thinking about.

I don't know if the dark palette is a style style Leibovitz came up with or if it is something an art director suggested but it is one of the things people don't like about her "style." Yes I'd like to see it change. But I'd also like to hear the reasoning behind it explained.

Meanwhile no one has commented about the fact that Ms. Biles had her nipples and areola removed.
https://twitter.com/Judnikki/status/1281547134244843520/photo/1

Funny. I knew a second unit director in Toronto and they tried to get rid of the "shine" because they said it made actors appear to be always sweating.

I know a lot of people who hate ANY KIND of specularity on a subject's face as looking "Greasy" - which is really annoying to me because in order to make the light so diffuse that there is no specularity is more trouble than it's worth.

Maybe so, but shiny people is amateurish, like the average Youtube video.

mujana Veteran Member • Posts: 7,041
Certainly not a bit ridiculous!
2

CameraCarl wrote:

Isn't this becoming a bit ridiculous?

Definitely, completely, utterly, 100% ridiculous...is what I think.

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Alex Ethridge
Alex Ethridge Veteran Member • Posts: 4,994
OK Guys, Attack This.
2

The photographer is black.

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threw the lens
threw the lens Senior Member • Posts: 2,760
Re: OK Guys, Attack This.
1

It is very dark, isn't it...

TDL2024 Regular Member • Posts: 383
Re: Leibovitz attacked for not photographing someone right
5

Looks on par for an editorial image where they wanted a not so natural tone to the image.  Besides, Leibowitz as far as I know hasn't done her own retouching in like 2 decades.

If the creative director still wanted that look it wouldn't matter if the photographer is black, brown, or purple.  Too many people responsible for the final output for a bunch of SJW's to complain that she wasn't right for the job because she wasn't black.

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MHshooter
OP MHshooter Contributing Member • Posts: 772
Re: OK Guys, Attack This.
1

Not a good cover, it's too dark (not the person, the whole thing) and won't entice people to buy.

Alex Ethridge
Alex Ethridge Veteran Member • Posts: 4,994
Re: OK Guys, Attack This.
3

MHshooter wrote:

Not a good cover, it's too dark (not the person, the whole thing) and won't entice people to buy.

I submitted it for those who said AL failed because she wasn't black.  Well, the guy who did this cover is black and it's just as dark.  So it seems it is a thing and the race of the photographer has nothing to do with it.

Frankly, I think this one is a beautiful representation of black skin.

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threw the lens
threw the lens Senior Member • Posts: 2,760
Re: OK Guys, Attack This.

Alex Ethridge wrote:

MHshooter wrote:

Not a good cover, it's too dark (not the person, the whole thing) and won't entice people to buy.

I submitted it for those who said AL failed because she wasn't black. Well, the guy who did this cover is black and it's just as dark. So it seems it is a thing and the race of the photographer has nothing to do with it.

Frankly, I think this one is a beautiful representation of black skin.

It's not primarily intended to be. It's a colour harmony idea, midnight blue-blacks. The colour theme dominates the model more than the other way around.

Ellis Vener
Ellis Vener Forum Pro • Posts: 13,847
Re: Leibovitz attacked for not photographing someone right

TDL2024 wrote:

Looks on par for an editorial image where they wanted a not so natural tone to the image. Besides, Leibowitz as far as I know hasn't done her own retouching in like 2 decades.

If the creative director still wanted that look it wouldn't matter if the photographer is black, brown, or purple. Too many people responsible for the final output for a bunch of SJW's to complain that she wasn't right for the job because she wasn't black.

As far as I know, unless you count spotting out dust spots and scratches  on prints I don't think she has ever done her own retouching, going all the way back to the very beginning of her career at Rolling Stone

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david__p Regular Member • Posts: 230
Re: Leibovitz attacked for not photographing someone right
3

leibovitz is almost always off the beaten track of what most would expect. im not in love with the look she got on biles but they do make you look a bit (study) and try to wonder what she was thinking of with this portrayal. also rarely is she interested in making someone look great from a physical POV...meaning she wants to make them less than perfect many times as to bring them on a different POV from how stars are usually portrayed. so im not surprised by her result. its provocative at the least and i think thats the name of the game on the cover of a big magazine rather than just putting a completely dazzling shot out there which biles would have tons of from her more routine photo shoots and performance. again not surprised and it is getting a rise out of a lot of people so mission accomplished i think.

david

Bill Ferris
Bill Ferris Veteran Member • Posts: 5,697
What Does Simone Biles Say?
11

The first thought that came to mind when I saw the cover photo was, she is one strong black woman. That portrait presents Simone Biles as strong, beautiful, powerful. I see elements of classic Renaissance sculpture in the pose, the way the lighting elegantly highlights her physique and I love the added touch of the fan blowing her hair. Biles looks equally strong, elegant, powerful, lovely and absolutely formidable in the cover photo. That is clearly a woman who is justifiably proud of who she is and what she has accomplished.

My guess is Simone Biles loves that portrait and the imagery it evokes. Either way, I'd like to hear her thoughts on the experience of being photographed by one of the world's most celebrated portrait artists. Was she excited to learn Leibovitz was going to do the shoot? What was it like working with Leibovitz? I'd like to know which are her favorite photos from the shoot.

Frankly, if Biles is happy - if she loves the photos - who cares what the critics say?

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MHshooter
OP MHshooter Contributing Member • Posts: 772
Re: What Does Simone Biles Say?
1

You mean, ultimately, the only legitimate question is, "are the photos any good?"  That should dominate above all the other nonsense.  But there is a concerted effort to "erase" things today, that bother people, no matter how consequential and important they are.

Bill Ferris
Bill Ferris Veteran Member • Posts: 5,697
Re: What Does Simone Biles Say?
7

MHshooter wrote:

You mean, ultimately, the only legitimate question is, "are the photos any good?" That should dominate above all the other nonsense. But there is a concerted effort to "erase" things today, that bother people, no matter how consequential and important they are.

I'll put it like this: I think there needs to be room for discussion and respectful disagreement. And I think we, as individuals, communities and organizations can and should be open to critical feedback on efforts to address the lingering problems of racism and discrimination in the US.

I would hope folks are in agreement that racism and discriminatory practices are wrong, and would acknowledge that - big picture - our society and institutions have plenty of room for growth and improvement in this area. That said, where one stands in respect to this particular tempest shouldn't be seen as some litmus test on the big picture issues. It's not. There's an abundance of room for disagreement on the question of whether or not Vogue should have made it a priority to hire a black photographer to shoot the cover of Simone Biles.

Personally, I think there's an argument to be made that hiring Annie Leibovitz sent the message that Biles is regarded so highly by the magazine she merited paying the (no doubt) substantial fee to have one of the world's most celebrated portrait photographers do the shoot. The magazine chose a woman; a photographer known for her strong voice and perspective. Leibovitz went into that shoot to create art and wouldn't have allowed anyone to dissuade her from making a strong statement with her images. Personally, I think both women succeeded with that cover photo.

I don't disagree on principal with the criticism that more photographers of color should be hired for high profile shoots. However, I don't agree that should have been the overriding priority for Vogue in this instance. Vogue put two women with strong voices in a room and they delivered a set of images that make such strong statements, people are engaged in a robust debate about them. That's a good thing. We need more magazine covers that have the power to spark this kind of discussion.

I also believe it's important to make room for, listen to and take to heart the criticism of Vogue. One assignment doesn't define or determine whether or not a system is just. But if, at the end of the year, all Vogue's top gigs go to white photographers, that's a problem. If at the end of the year, all the magazine's top executives and decision-makers are white, that's a problem.

That's a standard we can apply to any organization...public or private. We should be willing to step back, see the big picture, and recognize where we are failing. And then do something about it. Knowing what to do and how to do it can be the hard part. No doubt, Vogue thought a Biles cover photographed by Liebovitz was and would be seen as a good choice and a step in the right direction. But just maybe, the right step is being open to criticism of those decisions. Listen to it, take it to heart and don't be offended. Oppression and injustice have gone on long enough that people, society and our institutions can be open to - even inviting of - criticism of efforts made to pave a better way forward.

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New Day Rising
New Day Rising Senior Member • Posts: 4,759
Re: What Does Simone Biles Say?
2

Bill Ferris wrote:

MHshooter wrote:

You mean, ultimately, the only legitimate question is, "are the photos any good?" That should dominate above all the other nonsense. But there is a concerted effort to "erase" things today, that bother people, no matter how consequential and important they are.

I'll put it like this: I think there needs to be room for discussion and respectful disagreement. And I think we, as individuals, communities and organizations can and should be open to critical feedback on efforts to address the lingering problems of racism and discrimination in the US.

I would hope folks are in agreement that racism and discriminatory practices are wrong, and would acknowledge that - big picture - our society and institutions have plenty of room for growth and improvement in this area. That said, where one stands in respect to this particular tempest shouldn't be seen as some litmus test on the big picture issues. It's not. There's an abundance of room for disagreement on the question of whether or not Vogue should have made it a priority to hire a black photographer to shoot the cover of Simone Biles.

Personally, I think there's an argument to be made that hiring Annie Leibovitz sent the message that Biles is regarded so highly by the magazine she merited paying the (no doubt) substantial fee to have one of the world's most celebrated portrait photographers do the shoot. The magazine chose a woman; a photographer known for her strong voice and perspective. Leibovitz went into that shoot to create art and wouldn't have allowed anyone to dissuade her from making a strong statement with her images. Personally, I think both women succeeded with that cover photo.

I don't disagree on principal with the criticism that more photographers of color should be hired for high profile shoots. However, I don't agree that should have been the overriding priority for Vogue in this instance. Vogue put two women with strong voices in a room and they delivered a set of images that make such strong statements, people are engaged in a robust debate about them. That's a good thing. We need more magazine covers that have the power to spark this kind of discussion.

I also believe it's important to make room for, listen to and take to heart the criticism of Vogue. One assignment doesn't define or determine whether or not a system is just. But if, at the end of the year, all Vogue's top gigs go to white photographers, that's a problem. If at the end of the year, all the magazine's top executives and decision-makers are white, that's a problem.

That's a standard we can apply to any organization...public or private. We should be willing to step back, see the big picture, and recognize where we are failing. And then do something about it. Knowing what to do and how to do it can be the hard part. No doubt, Vogue thought a Biles cover photographed by Liebovitz was and would be seen as a good choice and a step in the right direction. But just maybe, the right step is being open to criticism of those decisions. Listen to it, take it to heart and don't be offended. Oppression and injustice have gone on long enough that people, society and our institutions can be open to - even inviting of - criticism of efforts made to pave a better way forward.

Very, very well said, Bill. Such a wise, balanced and articulate contribution to debate on an issue that too frequently is overcome by emotions and ideologies that preclude debate.

I absolutely agree.

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Doug Haag Senior Member • Posts: 2,249
Re: Leibovitz attacked for not photographing someone right
1

MHshooter wrote:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/simone-biles-vogue-black-photographers- 125934287.html?.tsrc=daily_mail&uh_test=2_15

Fans of once-in-a-lifetime gymnast Simone Biles are over the moon that Biles
is on the cover of the August issue of Vogue, but as for the actual photo,
not so much.

Several critics on Twitter (including New York Times national picture editor
Morrigan McCarthy) took shots at the dimly lit images of Biles inside and out
by famous photog Annie Leibovitz and suggested that Vogue should have used a
black photographer (and hire more black photographers in general), or at the
very least find someone who better understands black skin tones.

Perhaps there would be less criticism if the images of Ms Biles has looked more like the cover of Vanity Fair.  https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4504482

rochester21 Senior Member • Posts: 1,212
Re: Leibovitz attacked for not photographing someone right
1

CameraCarl wrote:

Isn't this becoming a bit ridiculous?

I've seen the cover. Everything is ridiculous.

Then again, i don't understand the point of "professional" sports and "glamour" magazines so who knows- maybe i'm just being ridiculous.

rochester21 Senior Member • Posts: 1,212
This is so funny
1

TDL2024 wrote:

coplain that she wasn't right for the job because she wasn't black.

The basis for it can only be the premise that all white people are racist towards black people, which is a very narrow minded aproach(despite the fact that technically it is valid). It is also worth nothing that this photographer is more than just white. She is a woman and belongs to a certain etnic background(and maybe more).

At this point i can easily claim she was attacked for her ethnicity and not skin color(that was just a pretext). Prove me wrong.

But who wants to slip into segregation here? There are so many groups of people on earth, not just blacks. Black being a general term, since the black race itself is divided in hundreds of ethnicities that don't necessarily like each other.

Same with white people. Anyone who thinks i have the slightest affiliation with an anglo-saxon is very much wrong.

Conclusion: there is a need for more diversity, but that diversity itself must be diverse, meaning going beyond black and white and man/female stereotypes.

The world is not ethnically, culturally and economically homogenous, like Vogue magazine staff and DPR are. We need to be aware of that 😁

rochester21 Senior Member • Posts: 1,212
You didn't get it
1

MHshooter wrote:

You mean, ultimately, the only legitimate question is, "are the photos any good?" That should dominate above all the other nonsense. But there is a concerted effort to "erase" things today, that bother people, no matter how consequential and important they are.

Maybe(just a possibility) one etnic/professional group's perception of "goodness" does not match the others?

Maybe the world is a lot more diverse than black vs white and man vs woman?

Maybe photography will always involve a degree of criticism?

As for the image, i will say what nobody said so far. As someone who hates all professional athletes, the image is not great because it shows a muscular woman from a non-sexual perspective.

Most people simply want to see all women pictured like Marilyn Monroe. One, that's just sexist. Second, it doesn't work with athletes.

rochester21 Senior Member • Posts: 1,212
Easy

Alex Ethridge wrote:

He photographed a black woman in a darkish european dress using a very dark background, like this is the european renaissance or something.

Which proves that being black(a very, very broad term btw) doesn't mean you won't try imitating other groups(for various reasons, including the fear of getting fired).

If it were me, i would have made that cover explode with color. Colorful dress, colorful background, maybe a colorful hat. The model herself would have loved that.

But, color isn't good for some people. It comes from the fact that in England it rains a lot and everything is gray.

Don't make me explain that, they will delete me again.

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