A few...

Started 5 months ago | Discussions
tasad Senior Member • Posts: 1,285
A few...
20

... date taken cheaters from the challenge ...
https://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Challenge.aspx?ID=14343

... "hosted" by the host who doesn't enforce his own rule , because : "If the DPR software allows you to post the images, then they are good. I don't police the capture date otherwise. The Forums, however, have meta data police. "

https://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Challenge.aspx?ID=14377

... ..... ....

This picture was not taken on 20th June , 2020 ...

https://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=1152217&View=Results&Rows=25

... it was taken on 28th June , 2014 ...

... and was submitted before here on 27th May , 2020 ...

https://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=1147013

This picture was not taken on 25th June, 2020 ...

https://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=1152458&View=Results&Rows=25

... it was taken on 8th May, 2020 ...

... it was posted here a few days before it was taken :

This picture was not taken ,  but photoshoped  on 20th June, 2020...

https://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=1151704&View=Results&Rows=25

.. it was originally  taken on 7th May , 2008 ...https://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9712186443/photos/4004831/ring-of-fire

https://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9712186443/photos/3346924/eye

https://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9712186443/photos/3346923/eye

This picture was not taken on 20th June, 2020 ...

https://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=1152397&View=Results&Rows=4

... it was taken on 10th May, 2020 ...

This picture was not taken on 15th June, 2020 ...

https://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=1152101&View=Results&Rows=4

... it was taken on 15th August, 2018 ...

Kcleeton Forum Member • Posts: 75
Re: A few...
8

Good work Tasad. The cheaters are out in force. These pictures need to be disqualified and these cheaters should be punished. This blatant cheating has no place in our challenges.

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Jill Hancock Junior Member • Posts: 25
Re: A few...
8

It seems a bit pointless having a date rule if you going to allow any pictures to be entered.

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David1961
David1961 Senior Member • Posts: 3,247
Re: A few...
8

The challenge host is clearly incompetent in being a host because he admits to knowing that DPR does not check the dates in exif data and goes on to say that those images are therefore permissible but he has a capture date rule. Having a capture date rule and not enforcing it makes no sense at all.

Imho, any host that has capture date rules is incompetent because it would take me no more than 2 minutes max to replace the entire exif data of an image that doesn't meet a capture date requirement with the exif data from another image that does meet the capture date requirement.

It's only the completely dumb members who can't even fake capture dates properly that get caught in these challenges.

Well done tasad

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jrtrent Veteran Member • Posts: 5,954
Re: A few...
9

David1961 wrote:

The challenge host is clearly incompetent in being a host because he admits to knowing that DPR does not check the dates in exif data and goes on to say that those images are therefore permissible but he has a capture date rule. Having a capture date rule and not enforcing it makes no sense at all.

Imho, any host that has capture date rules is incompetent because it would take me no more than 2 minutes max to replace the entire exif data of an image that doesn't meet a capture date requirement with the exif data from another image that does meet the capture date requirement.

So a host is incompetent for not enforcing the capture date rule, but then any host who uses a capture date rule is already incompetent because it's a rule that cannot be enforced. Doesn't give a host much hope, does it?

From past threads on the topic I know you understand one of the main reasons some hosts, for some challenges, like to have a capture date restriction. It's the same one Richard Butler gave in 2009 when these challenges started up, "to encourage people to go out and take photos, rather than encouraging already confident photographers to rifle through their back-catalogue." In my opinion, that's a worthy goal, and one that I think particularly helps people new to the hobby.  Newcomers may lack the skill/experience of a long-time photographer, but at least they're not also competing against the decades of photos sitting in that person's hard drive.

I don't believe that a lack of omniscience should be viewed as incompetence; it's simply a situation we're stuck with. As Richard also pointed out in 2009 when reminded that exif data can be edited, "You're right, there's very little to force people to comply with the rules." So as hosts, we either give up in despair or just do the best we can, knowing we're imperfect, and hope those entering the challenges can still have fun.

jrtrent Veteran Member • Posts: 5,954
Re: A few...
4

tasad wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Challenge.aspx?ID=14377

Tim van der Leeuw's comments were also disheartening. The host of the challenge said in his challenge theme, "This is a home lock down challenge and designed for people to get creative. You need to make a photo to enter, you can't just dig through your photo archives." And yet Tim proceeded to say:

"I saw the title and I thought, Oh I think I have one or two images that would be great... Then I read the rules that they have to be shot after the announcement. Fortunately, I also have some images shot on 22nd that are largely out-of-focus, so they should qualify..."

So not even an attempt to abide by the spirit of the challenge even if he has found a way to comply with the capture date rule.

As David1961 points out in this thread, and as Richard Butler confessed back in 2009, "there's very little to force people to comply with the rules."  I appreciate your efforts at discovering those who cheat.  I do the best I can to enforce the rules in my challenges, but I also know that I make mistakes, too, and those errors continue to increase as I grow older.  Every day that I go through the painful process of writing little notes explaining to someone why his or her entry is being disqualified, I have new appreciation for any host willing to keep trying to offer these challenges for people to enjoy.

JahnG
JahnG Senior Member • Posts: 2,844
Re: A few...

jrtrent wrote:

David1961 wrote:

The challenge host is clearly incompetent in being a host because he admits to knowing that DPR does not check the dates in exif data and goes on to say that those images are therefore permissible but he has a capture date rule. Having a capture date rule and not enforcing it makes no sense at all.

Imho, any host that has capture date rules is incompetent because it would take me no more than 2 minutes max to replace the entire exif data of an image that doesn't meet a capture date requirement with the exif data from another image that does meet the capture date requirement.

So a host is incompetent for not enforcing the capture date rule, but then any host who uses a capture date rule is already incompetent because it's a rule that cannot be enforced. Doesn't give a host much hope, does it?

From past threads on the topic I know you understand one of the main reasons some hosts, for some challenges, like to have a capture date restriction. It's the same one Richard Butler gave in 2009 when these challenges started up, "to encourage people to go out and take photos, rather than encouraging already confident photographers to rifle through their back-catalogue." In my opinion, that's a worthy goal, and one that I think particularly helps people new to the hobby. Newcomers may lack the skill/experience of a long-time photographer, but at least they're not also competing against the decades of photos sitting in that person's hard drive.

I don't believe that a lack of omniscience should be viewed as incompetence; it's simply a situation we're stuck with. As Richard also pointed out in 2009 when reminded that exif data can be edited, "You're right, there's very little to force people to comply with the rules." So as hosts, we either give up in despair or just do the best we can, knowing we're imperfect, and hope those entering the challenges can still have fun.

Exactly !

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David1961
David1961 Senior Member • Posts: 3,247
Re: A few...

jrtrent wrote:

David1961 wrote:

The challenge host is clearly incompetent in being a host because he admits to knowing that DPR does not check the dates in exif data and goes on to say that those images are therefore permissible but he has a capture date rule. Having a capture date rule and not enforcing it makes no sense at all.

Imho, any host that has capture date rules is incompetent because it would take me no more than 2 minutes max to replace the entire exif data of an image that doesn't meet a capture date requirement with the exif data from another image that does meet the capture date requirement.

So a host is incompetent for not enforcing the capture date rule, but then any host who uses a capture date rule is already incompetent because it's a rule that cannot be enforced. Doesn't give a host much hope, does it?

From past threads on the topic I know you understand one of the main reasons some hosts, for some challenges, like to have a capture date restriction. It's the same one Richard Butler gave in 2009 when these challenges started up, "to encourage people to go out and take photos, rather than encouraging already confident photographers to rifle through their back-catalogue." In my opinion, that's a worthy goal, and one that I think particularly helps people new to the hobby. Newcomers may lack the skill/experience of a long-time photographer, but at least they're not also competing against the decades of photos sitting in that person's hard drive.

I don't believe that a lack of omniscience should be viewed as incompetence; it's simply a situation we're stuck with. As Richard also pointed out in 2009 when reminded that exif data can be edited, "You're right, there's very little to force people to comply with the rules." So as hosts, we either give up in despair or just do the best we can, knowing we're imperfect, and hope those entering the challenges can still have fun.

Given that capture dates are easily faked, hosts have the option to specify capture date as a guide line in the challenge description instead of making it a rule where breaches cannot be detected if faked properly.

Capture dates specified as guidelines is totally OK.

Specifying them as rules makes a host look silly to me for the reason above.

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OP tasad Senior Member • Posts: 1,285
Re: A few...
6

I agree...

OP tasad Senior Member • Posts: 1,285
Re: A few...
8

Jill Hancock wrote:

It seems a bit pointless having a date rule if you going to allow any pictures to be entered.

It's typical for some "hosts".

OP tasad Senior Member • Posts: 1,285
Re: A few...
16

David1961 wrote:

The challenge host is clearly incompetent in being a host because he admits to knowing that DPR does not check the dates in exif data and goes on to say that those images are therefore permissible but he has a capture date rule. Having a capture date rule and not enforcing it makes no sense at all.

It's rather an indicator of disrespect for honest entrants and for  voters who spend their time voting on pictures that should be dq-ed...

OP tasad Senior Member • Posts: 1,285
Re: A few...
9

jrtrent wrote:

I do the best I can to enforce the rules in my challenges, but I also know that I make mistakes, too, and those errors continue to increase as I grow older. Every day that I go through the painful process of writing little notes explaining to someone why his or her entry is being disqualified, I have new appreciation for any host willing to keep trying to offer these challenges for people to enjoy.

Many , many thanks for your dedication in hosting challenges !!!

Tim van der Leeuw Regular Member • Posts: 115
Re: A few...

jrtrent wrote:

tasad wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Challenge.aspx?ID=14377

Tim van der Leeuw's comments were also disheartening. The host of the challenge said in his challenge theme, "This is a home lock down challenge and designed for people to get creative. You need to make a photo to enter, you can't just dig through your photo archives." And yet Tim proceeded to say:

"I saw the title and I thought, Oh I think I have one or two images that would be great... Then I read the rules that they have to be shot after the announcement. Fortunately, I also have some images shot on 22nd that are largely out-of-focus, so they should qualify..."

So not even an attempt to abide by the spirit of the challenge even if he has found a way to comply with the capture date rule.

Let me comment on that with my own perspective...

Yes you are right in a sense. I found some pictures in my archive, and did not go out to shoot new ones, when I saw this challenge.

However, the lockdown period has been a major boost to my photographic creativity. I think that I've taken as many images with my camera during this lockdown, as in the whole year before since I bought it. I have started to invest a lot more time into this hobby during the lockdown and started going out on trips with my camera specifically to try shooting better images and the image I entered was made on one of these trips.

Another image I would have liked to enter was made on another one of these trips, but was shot just a day before the challenge was announced (and I'm not going to cheat on these rules by editing my EXIF data).

So I feel that in spirit, I did comply with the theme of the challenge, even if it was a picture I had shot without knowing about the challenge.

I'm rather new to the forums on this site as you can see from my profile activity log, and this was the first time that I actually even learned about these challenges -- I saw a photo in the right sidebar announcing winner of some other challenge and got curious.

I saw this challenge the day before it closed for entries, on a rainy evening.

It didn't look like I would be able to go out and shoot something interesting outdoors and didn't see anything at home that made me feel it would result in a great picture for the challenge, and not just some picture shot only to be able to enter a challenge.

So I felt justified entering the challenge with that photo.

As David1961 points out in this thread, and as Richard Butler confessed back in 2009, "there's very little to force people to comply with the rules." I appreciate your efforts at discovering those who cheat. I do the best I can to enforce the rules in my challenges, but I also know that I make mistakes, too, and those errors continue to increase as I grow older. Every day that I go through the painful process of writing little notes explaining to someone why his or her entry is being disqualified, I have new appreciation for any host willing to keep trying to offer these challenges for people to enjoy.

I'm sorry that I've made your heart grow a little sadder with my entry to this challenge, and specifically with the comments I've made about them.

I have probably upset the challenge host as well even without meaning to.

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Tim van der Leeuw Regular Member • Posts: 115
Re: A few...

jrtrent wrote:

tasad wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Challenge.aspx?ID=14377

Tim van der Leeuw's comments were also disheartening. The host of the challenge said in his challenge theme, "This is a home lock down challenge and designed for people to get creative. You need to make a photo to enter, you can't just dig through your photo archives." And yet Tim proceeded to say:

"I saw the title and I thought, Oh I think I have one or two images that would be great... Then I read the rules that they have to be shot after the announcement. Fortunately, I also have some images shot on 22nd that are largely out-of-focus, so they should qualify..."

I've withdrawn my entry from the challenge.

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David1961
David1961 Senior Member • Posts: 3,247
Re: A few...
2

It's actually both

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jrtrent Veteran Member • Posts: 5,954
Re: A few...

I appreciate the encouragement.

jrtrent Veteran Member • Posts: 5,954
Re: A few...

Tim van der Leeuw wrote:

jrtrent wrote:

tasad wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Challenge.aspx?ID=14377

Tim van der Leeuw's comments were also disheartening. The host of the challenge said in his challenge theme, "This is a home lock down challenge and designed for people to get creative. You need to make a photo to enter, you can't just dig through your photo archives." And yet Tim proceeded to say:

"I saw the title and I thought, Oh I think I have one or two images that would be great... Then I read the rules that they have to be shot after the announcement. Fortunately, I also have some images shot on 22nd that are largely out-of-focus, so they should qualify..."

So not even an attempt to abide by the spirit of the challenge even if he has found a way to comply with the capture date rule.

Let me comment on that with my own perspective...

Yes you are right in a sense. I found some pictures in my archive, and did not go out to shoot new ones, when I saw this challenge.

However, the lockdown period has been a major boost to my photographic creativity. I think that I've taken as many images with my camera during this lockdown, as in the whole year before since I bought it. I have started to invest a lot more time into this hobby during the lockdown and started going out on trips with my camera specifically to try shooting better images and the image I entered was made on one of these trips.

What a great use of lockdown time! I'm afraid that where I live, local officials interpreted our governor's lockdown orders as precluding activities like taking pictures. We were allowed out of our homes to take a walk in our own neighborhoods, but it was to be strictly for exercise. Recently, both parks and "non-essential" travel have been restored as options for us.

Another image I would have liked to enter was made on another one of these trips, but was shot just a day before the challenge was announced (and I'm not going to cheat on these rules by editing my EXIF data).

So I feel that in spirit, I did comply with the theme of the challenge, even if it was a picture I had shot without knowing about the challenge.

I applaud your complying with the capture date rule.

I have to admit that the way these challenges have worked seems a bit odd to me. At least for those challenges with the capture date restriction "Images must be shot after the announcement date of the challenge," and in keeping with the word "challenge" itself, the idea put forth 11 years ago when the challenges began was that people would see an announced challenge with a theme that interested them, plan out a suitable picture, then go take that picture and enter it. What we've ended up with instead is what I might call photography "displays," where instead of being challenged to produce an image that meets the given criteria, a person typically ends up displaying a picture they've already taken that happens to fit the given theme.

Not that I have anything against displaying pictures that weren't taken for a specific challenge. In fact, that's the very theme of a long-running "challenge" that I've recently started hosting (I am now the fourth person to have served as host of it). About nine years ago, Lext123 hosted My Best Picture this Week with the theme, "Great new shot? No suitable Challenge available? No patience to wait for the right one to come by? For those unlucky members I have created this opportunity."

I'm rather new to the forums on this site as you can see from my profile activity log, and this was the first time that I actually even learned about these challenges -- I saw a photo in the right sidebar announcing winner of some other challenge and got curious.

I saw this challenge the day before it closed for entries, on a rainy evening.

It didn't look like I would be able to go out and shoot something interesting outdoors and didn't see anything at home that made me feel it would result in a great picture for the challenge, and not just some picture shot only to be able to enter a challenge.

So I felt justified entering the challenge with that photo.

As David1961 points out in this thread, and as Richard Butler confessed back in 2009, "there's very little to force people to comply with the rules." I appreciate your efforts at discovering those who cheat. I do the best I can to enforce the rules in my challenges, but I also know that I make mistakes, too, and those errors continue to increase as I grow older. Every day that I go through the painful process of writing little notes explaining to someone why his or her entry is being disqualified, I have new appreciation for any host willing to keep trying to offer these challenges for people to enjoy.

I'm sorry that I've made your heart grow a little sadder with my entry to this challenge, and specifically with the comments I've made about them.

I have probably upset the challenge host as well even without meaning to.

My post was rather maudlin, wasn't it?  Sorry about that.  I'm afraid David1961's occasional injections of reality as to what hosts can and can't properly oversee always make me a bit depressed.  My hope is that you will have a great deal of fun with the challenges.  I've never (yet) been an entrant myself, but I've always enjoyed the displays of fine pictures that I've gotten to see, admire, and vote on, and your participation is greatly appreciated.

Tim van der Leeuw Regular Member • Posts: 115
Re: A few...

jrtrent wrote:

[...]

My post was rather maudlin, wasn't it? Sorry about that. I'm afraid David1961's occasional injections of reality as to what hosts can and can't properly oversee always make me a bit depressed. My hope is that you will have a great deal of fun with the challenges. I've never (yet) been an entrant myself, but I've always enjoyed the displays of fine pictures that I've gotten to see, admire, and vote on, and your participation is greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your encouragement after I entered a challenge on, let's say, shaky grounds. But reading today various threads in this sub-forum about the amount of cheating going on, is not particularly enouraging.

Anyway, I will keep an eye on challenges, probably, and enter what I see fit, if I feel inspired to take a picture that matches the theme of a challenge...

Thanks,

-- hide signature --

Tim

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Bill Thoo Regular Member • Posts: 267
Re: A few...
1

Thanks for the support...  I'm not going to get into the usual forum sewer fight.  And like it or not, I will simply use the DPR software to enforce the date limit.  So, a quick poll.  Should the challenge series continue or end?

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Bill Thoo Regular Member • Posts: 267
Re: A few...
1

By the way, the poll is not an anger response (at least not any more...) but real feedback seeking.  I'm not changing the way I host, so should it continue as is, or stop?

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