Will Fujifilm be next?

Started 4 months ago | Discussions
Jerry-astro
MOD Jerry-astro Forum Pro • Posts: 16,156
Unnecessary
7

Greg7579 wrote:

Kenny,

Go onto the Sony Forum, the Canon Forum, the Nikon Forum, the Medium Format Forum, the Panasonic Forum and the Leica Forum and do that exact post but ask it of their brand.

What is the point of doing that here on the Fuji Board?

Just having some fun?

No Kenny. Fuji is not going to stop making cameras and lenses.

Do you feel better now?

It’s an absolutely legitimate question and worthy of discussion. Oly’s departure is pretty big news and I doubt that Fujifilm would be immune to making similar tough decisions if the business environment demanded it.

I bolded the one part of your post that added any value to the discussion. The rest is unnecessary and makes it a bit personal. Either build on your case or step back and let the discussion continue on its own. This adds zero value.

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Jerry-Astro
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Greg7579
Greg7579 Forum Pro • Posts: 11,077
Re: One thing I have learned is this
3

Batdude wrote:

KennyXYZ wrote:

Olympus reveals plans to ditch its camera business

Absolutely NOTHING is safe in this world. Our health, our life, our jobs, and definitely no business is, so I find it really interesting how some spit out the world “no” so fast. But hey maybe they know the future.

One thing I will say is this, it is not going to be easy on Fuji because the FF mirrorless war is just beginning and new and used FF bodies are going to flood everywhere at the same or below prices as APS-C.

Im being very honest with you, I’m (not sure) if I’ll ever again spend another $1899 for an APS-C camera and I’m actually keeping my eye on certain others brands, but they are FF. That’s the truth.

I'm glad you have decided to be so honest with us.

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Jerry-astro
MOD Jerry-astro Forum Pro • Posts: 16,156
Not so sure...
1

Batdude wrote:

KennyXYZ wrote:

Olympus reveals plans to ditch its camera business

Absolutely NOTHING is safe in this world. Our health, our life, our jobs, and definitely no business is, so I find it really interesting how some spit out the world “no” so fast. But hey maybe they know the future.

One thing I will say is this, it is not going to be easy on Fuji because the FF mirrorless war is just beginning and new and used FF bodies are going to flood everywhere at the same or below prices as APS-C.

Im being very honest with you, I’m (not sure) if I’ll ever again spend another $1899 for an APS-C camera and I’m actually keeping my eye on certain others brands, but they are FF. That’s the truth.

So, you seems to be assuming that there are huge numbers of people out there dying to get their hands on a FF camera, but are waiting for them to become more affordable? Maybe, but I doubt it. The niche that crop cameras occupy offers more than a cost advantage. There is also a size advantage, which for many, way outweighs the one stop or so IQ advantage that FF offers. I’m not one of those sitting on the sidelines waiting with bated breath for a FF body to drop to some arbitrary price point. It’s simply of no interest to me, now or in the future.

I think you’re projecting your own needs and biases on the broader market, and cost is only one factor to be considered here. What’s more, the high end of the APS-C market will inevitably overlap the lower end of the FF market. That’s been happening for ages. Both are attractive to photographers for various reasons and I see both formats thriving and occupying their own niches in the market for some time to come. There will continue to be higher end crop bodies that overlap lower end FF bodies in cost. This is true of every market there is. If you compare like for like, you will continue to see price differences and segmentation.

Your interests and biases here are (and have been) clear. Just don’t assume that they apply to the broader base of photographers out there. I’m certainly seeing no evidence that crop cameras are a dying breed, by any means.

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Jerry-Astro
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John Gellings
John Gellings Veteran Member • Posts: 7,045
Re: One thing I have learned is this
4

Batdude wrote:

KennyXYZ wrote:

Olympus reveals plans to ditch its camera business

Absolutely NOTHING is safe in this world. Our health, our life, our jobs, and definitely no business is, so I find it really interesting how some spit out the world “no” so fast. But hey maybe they know the future.

One thing I will say is this, it is not going to be easy on Fuji because the FF mirrorless war is just beginning and new and used FF bodies are going to flood everywhere at the same or below prices as APS-C.

Im being very honest with you, I’m (not sure) if I’ll ever again spend another $1899 for an APS-C camera and I’m actually keeping my eye on certain others brands, but they are FF. That’s the truth.

There are a lot of people who think like you, but until there is a FF camera that is designed like the X100 or X-Pro series... with small lenses as well, I have no problem spending FF money on a great APSC system.

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Maxxum Fan Regular Member • Posts: 452
Re: Not so sure...
1

Jerry-astro wrote:

Batdude wrote:

KennyXYZ wrote:

Olympus reveals plans to ditch its camera business

Absolutely NOTHING is safe in this world. Our health, our life, our jobs, and definitely no business is, so I find it really interesting how some spit out the world “no” so fast. But hey maybe they know the future.

One thing I will say is this, it is not going to be easy on Fuji because the FF mirrorless war is just beginning and new and used FF bodies are going to flood everywhere at the same or below prices as APS-C.

Im being very honest with you, I’m (not sure) if I’ll ever again spend another $1899 for an APS-C camera and I’m actually keeping my eye on certain others brands, but they are FF. That’s the truth.

So, you seems to be assuming that there are huge numbers of people out there dying to get their hands on a FF camera, but are waiting for them to become more affordable? Maybe, but I doubt it. The niche that crop cameras occupy offers more than a cost advantage. There is also a size advantage, which for many, way outweighs the one stop or so IQ advantage that FF offers. I’m not one of those sitting on the sidelines waiting with bated breath for a FF body to drop to some arbitrary price point. It’s simply of no interest to me, now or in the future.

I think you’re projecting your own needs and biases on the broader market, and cost is only one factor to be considered here. What’s more, the high end of the APS-C market will inevitably overlap the lower end of the FF market. That’s been happening for ages. Both are attractive to photographers for various reasons and I see both formats thriving and occupying their own niches in the market for some time to come. There will continue to be higher end crop bodies that overlap lower end FF bodies in cost. This is true of every market there is. If you compare like for like, you will continue to see price differences and segmentation.

Your interests and biases here are (and have been) clear. Just don’t assume that they apply to the broader base of photographers out there. I’m certainly seeing no evidence that crop cameras are a dying breed, by any means.

I kinda with him on this one. I use different systems, crop and FF. Gotta say place for each, thing is tho I do find the crop Fuji's a bit much in price. XT4 is just too high IMO for what it is XT3 pretty nice deals on that, but no IBIS

I wouldn't put down cash on the XT4 at it's selling price now. Erm I think it's a bit more than what you say. The problem is there isn't huge numbers of dudes dying to get their hands on cameras in general, be it FF or crop.

I could go online now and buy a D610 for way less than an XT4, sure it's old but loads of glass out there for cheap. I mean if MILC is gonna appeal it has to be more affordable IMO. You can get FF cheap enough, so much gear out there used too. Why buy new gear?

The Photo Brewery
The Photo Brewery New Member • Posts: 8
Re: Will Fujifilm be next? No.

I agree with no. They are very popular cameras at the moment and they have other divisions like medical and industrial systems that will probably make them a lot of money.

They are just too good and do a lot of things right as a camera company.

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Greg7579
Greg7579 Forum Pro • Posts: 11,077
Re: Not so sure...
1

Maxxum Fan wrote:

Why buy new gear?

You guys are killing me.

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Maxxum Fan Regular Member • Posts: 452
Re: Not so sure...

Greg7579 wrote:

Maxxum Fan wrote:

Why buy new gear?

You guys are killing me.

Reality bites dude..

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/dw-202004_e.pdf

MrSee
MrSee Contributing Member • Posts: 822
Re: Will Fujifilm be next?

Greg I think the OP was asking a question that maybe many are thinking.  Fujifilm is my really huge.  Cameras are a small part of their overall business.  
i have appreciated reading what you have to say over the years, but you are speaking about Fuji’s future like you have seen it in a Chrystal Ball.  I don’t think that’s the case. Ease off a bit.

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Greg7579
Greg7579 Forum Pro • Posts: 11,077
Re: Not so sure...

Maxxum Fan wrote:

Greg7579 wrote:

Maxxum Fan wrote:

Why buy new gear?

You guys are killing me.

Reality bites dude..

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/dw-202004_e.pdf

Your economic analytical powers during this pandemic are impressive.

Prior to your post, I had thought camera sales were up, like with cars and boats.  😁

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Greg7579
Greg7579 Forum Pro • Posts: 11,077
Re: Will Fujifilm be next?
1

MrSee wrote:

Greg I think the OP was asking a question that maybe many are thinking. Fujifilm is my really huge. Cameras are a small part of their overall business.
i have appreciated reading what you have to say over the years, but you are speaking about Fuji’s future like you have seen it in a Chrystal Ball. I don’t think that’s the case. Ease off a bit.

Apologies.  I certainly don't have a crystal ball.  But I do have an opinion.

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Baltic Beachbum
Baltic Beachbum Forum Member • Posts: 85
Re: One thing I have learned is this
1

I love the size, weight and handling of the X-Pro. I wouldn't trade it for a FF anything, no matter what.

What I would get, as an additional camera, is a GFX 100R. Just waiting for its development and a price/weight drop. 

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Jerry-astro
MOD Jerry-astro Forum Pro • Posts: 16,156
Re: Not so sure...
5

Maxxum Fan wrote:

Greg7579 wrote:

Maxxum Fan wrote:

Why buy new gear?

You guys are killing me.

Reality bites dude..

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/dw-202004_e.pdf

It's not reality... it's simply your opinion... dude.  The data can be read and analyzed any number of ways.  The market is maturing, and particularly in the current economy, people are thinking twice about expensive (and discretionary) purchases.  There also seems to be this mindset among some that most photographers are simply waiting for FF bodies to drop in cost and and crop format cameras/sensors will be abandoned wholesale as that happens.  It's my opinion crop will always have a cost advantage simply due to size and the higher cost of a larger sensor (even if there is and will be some convergence in FF vs. crop pricing).  What's more, in spite of the opinions voiced here by some, I think the size and -- even if moderate -- price advantage of crop format cameras will still appeal to many photographers.  Count me as one of them.  FF offers me little in the way of an advantage, and I suspect I'm not alone in having little desire to abandon crop sensor based cameras and move to FF.

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Jerry-Astro
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R_U_Q_R_U
R_U_Q_R_U Senior Member • Posts: 1,300
Photo Imaging is only 11% of Fujifilm Group Revenue
2

For those who do not know, Fujifilm Group generates almost half their revenue from Medical and Healthcare technology. Another 41% is from Document Solutions. So they have many streams to keep the company going. Cameras are kind of "hobby" business.

You can download their last financials here: Integrated Reports

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GossCTP Veteran Member • Posts: 5,335
For whom the bell tolls

Nobody here has that answer, and likely few people in the companies affected do either. Samsung built argueably the best APS-C camera at the time with  the NX-1 and silently walked away from the industry.

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Maxxum Fan Regular Member • Posts: 452
Re: Not so sure...
4

Jerry-astro wrote:

Maxxum Fan wrote:

Greg7579 wrote:

Maxxum Fan wrote:

Why buy new gear?

You guys are killing me.

Reality bites dude..

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/dw-202004_e.pdf

It's not reality... it's simply your opinion... dude. The data can be read and analyzed any number of ways. The market is maturing, and particularly in the current economy, people are thinking twice about expensive (and discretionary) purchases. There also seems to be this mindset among some that most photographers are simply waiting for FF bodies to drop in cost and and crop format cameras/sensors will be abandoned wholesale as that happens. It's my opinion crop will always have a cost advantage simply due to size and the higher cost of a larger sensor (even if there is and will be some convergence in FF vs. crop pricing). What's more, in spite of the opinions voiced here by some, I think the size and -- even if moderate -- price advantage of crop format cameras will still appeal to many photographers. Count me as one of them. FF offers me little in the way of an advantage, and I suspect I'm not alone in having little desire to abandon crop sensor based cameras and move to FF.

It's not an opinion it's statistical facts. That's just shipments sales clearly are lower

I like Fuji but thing is all these makers are suffering big time. It was pretty bad before Covid, that just hammered things down harder. Shame yeah but makers gotta grasp things and start pricing realistic.

X mount has nice glass, but lotta folks are using legacy 35mm lenses, some are tat some are good, cost is very low. XT4 is priced too high IMO nice cam no question they did the things they needed too

For those who are left I'd say more would lean FF for a similar price v crop. Shave $400 off the XT4 gets a lot more interesting

I'd say Fuji make more profits off Instax then they do digital gear sales

AaronX Senior Member • Posts: 1,651
Re: Photo Imaging is only 11% of Fujifilm Group Revenue

R_U_Q_R_U wrote:

For those who do not know, Fujifilm Group generates almost half their revenue from Medical and Healthcare technology. Another 41% is from Document Solutions. So they have many streams to keep the company going. Cameras are kind of "hobby" business.

You can download their last financials here: Integrated Reports

What would be cool is that Fuji buys Olympus IBIS technology from this new company.

MrSee
MrSee Contributing Member • Posts: 822
Re: Will Fujifilm be next?
2

You do have an opinion and for the most part I appreciate your opinions. I have learned a lot since joining  this forum

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lynnG Regular Member • Posts: 344
Re: Will Fujifilm be next?

Unlikely. Nikon could be the next if they cannot drop their Z50 quickly. Panasonic could be in parallel to Nikon If they could not sell much of their FF bodies and continue to release the products like the latest G100. Fuji seems to be safe at the moment.

Truman Prevatt
Truman Prevatt Forum Pro • Posts: 11,207
Re: Not so sure...
3

Maxxum Fan wrote:

Jerry-astro wrote:

Maxxum Fan wrote:

Greg7579 wrote:

Maxxum Fan wrote:

Why buy new gear?

You guys are killing me.

Reality bites dude..

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/dw-202004_e.pdf

It's not reality... it's simply your opinion... dude. The data can be read and analyzed any number of ways. The market is maturing, and particularly in the current economy, people are thinking twice about expensive (and discretionary) purchases. There also seems to be this mindset among some that most photographers are simply waiting for FF bodies to drop in cost and and crop format cameras/sensors will be abandoned wholesale as that happens. It's my opinion crop will always have a cost advantage simply due to size and the higher cost of a larger sensor (even if there is and will be some convergence in FF vs. crop pricing). What's more, in spite of the opinions voiced here by some, I think the size and -- even if moderate -- price advantage of crop format cameras will still appeal to many photographers. Count me as one of them. FF offers me little in the way of an advantage, and I suspect I'm not alone in having little desire to abandon crop sensor based cameras and move to FF.

It's not an opinion it's statistical facts. That's just shipments sales clearly are lower

I like Fuji but thing is all these makers are suffering big time. It was pretty bad before Covid, that just hammered things down harder. Shame yeah but makers gotta grasp things and start pricing realistic.

X mount has nice glass, but lotta folks are using legacy 35mm lenses, some are tat some are good, cost is very low. XT4 is priced too high IMO nice cam no question they did the things they needed too

For those who are left I'd say more would lean FF for a similar price v crop. Shave $400 off the XT4 gets a lot more interesting

I'd say Fuji make more profits off Instax then they do digital gear sales

I don't think there isn't much debate that Instax is paying a lot of bills.  No company is immune - and I see Sony who has been fending off Dan Lobe ( large hedge fund investor) for a long time might be the next in the barrel.  Cameras are sucking up R&D and marketing dollars that could go to more products with higher growth potential and the financial markets are looking for growth.  Declining markets are growth opportunities.  Only time will tell.  However, I don't see FF has the holy grail either.  The market is just going to have to stabilize and right now it is not stable.

A lot of "features" and a lot of technologies have been thrown at the wall like over cooked pasta hoping something sticks.  Oly has by far the best stabilization but it seems that an a couple bucks will buy it a cup of coffee as it's going belly up.  Sony probably has the best mirrorless AF but Dan Lobe doesn't give a rats behind about AF - all he cares about is growth of value in his Third Point which owns a significant amount of Sony stock.  I'm not sure throwing pasta at the wall accomplishes much.  While we might not see the Fuji numbers broken out by line - it would be interesting to see the sales of the XT4.  If the XT4 falls below the XT2 - then I would question if the money spent on the upgrade was worth it.

However, I don't have to worry about it since it is not my job on the line. It is some manager at Fuji or Sony or ... People have not been buying mirrorless cameras in the same number as the previous year for several years - that's a fact.  The ever growing feature set and technology has not turned that around.  Leica trashed video when they produced the M10 and the M10 has been a foundational product for them.  Clearly what Leica did worked for them.  What everyone else is doing doesn't seem to be working.

And while Fuji's numbers don't look as bad as Canon, Sony, Nikon, Oly and Panny - I think the bad news is hidden by the Instax.

It will be interesting to see how it flushes out over the next two years.  But make no mistake in publicly held companies - no investor cares how they make their money as long as they do and it is in a growth sector.  That today is not digital mirrorless cameras.

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