Opinion. What's Old Is New Again

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Curtis B
Curtis B New Member • Posts: 9
Opinion. What's Old Is New Again
11

Firstly let me admit I don't shoot with a Pentax DSLR at present.  I'm posting here because Pentax made me think of something.  It's that APS-C flagship camera people are talking about.  Some people are doomsayers and think it's a mistake because Pentax isn't doing mirrorless.  I'm sort of contrarian.  So although I still shoot a Nikon DSLR to be honest I like something that charts a different course from the rest of the industry too.  It got me thinking because I was interested in a new crop sensor body for walking around.

First an analogy.  I'm old enough that when I was young we still bought our music on cassette and 8 track tapes and vinyl records.  Then along came CDs.  Before too long sales of vinyl records were declining and everyone seemed to be going with CDs.  The death of the vinyl record was an oft repeated refrain.  Well they never quite died off.  Soon enough MP3 came along.  Pretty soon it was the death of the CD.  Now I gather there's a resurgence in vinyl to where they are outselling CDs.  What was old is new again.

DSLRs (along with SLRs) might seem redundant to some but I think predictions of an imminent extinction might be premature.

Another thing: lets look at what sells well for Fujifilm.  Rangefinder cameras were the original mirrorless cameras of course so the XPro cameras sort of leverage that tradition but what are people really buying?  There's good color science of course but those film emulations are popular.  Digitalized analog.  The design of the X-Pro 3 is similar.  Instead of the place to put the piece of the film box it's a little screen.  Digitalized analog.  Then there's the X-T4.  I have buddies that love those but what is it they like about it?  It's the analog feel of the body at least in part.  It's mirrorless sure but it looks like an SLR and it sells well.

I just got to thinking maybe the DSLR come SLR retro thing hasn't quite got to where people realize it's not going away.  It is retro though.  It's all about market share and such which I get.  Market share can fluctuate though in time.  I'm willing to bet there will continue to be a niche for folks that like the SLR form particularly if it has that digital analog element.  Eventually there will be a bottom in the market probably.  Things may turn bullish for the SLR much as it did for vinyl.  It may even prove to be the case for film SLRs.  Brand new ones that aren't 50 years old etc.

It would seem everyone is betting on mirrorless though these days.  Some people use that as a basis to say Pentax should do the same.  Join he crowd right?  Or does it suggest that if the market share stabilizes and shifts like it did with CDs and vinyl records that a Pentax for instance might have a cozy little niche.  People used to characterize Fuji as a niche camera company but I think you could say that's changed.

So yeah I might be a Nikon owner.  This line of reasoning though has sort of sparked my interest in weatherized cameras for use in the outdoors too.  I think for folks that do wildlife and birding the APS-C might not be that bad an idea.  If it works there is a niche for it.  Probably a fairly large one in terms of the bird guys.  Business involves risk so I'm not predicting a massive turnaround.  Just observing that in terms of technological obsolescence it's pretty unlikely we'll see the SLR go extinct and Pentax might be well positioned if they can build on it like Fuji did.

A new flagship APS-C DSLR might seem counterintuitive.  I'm not convinced it won't work though obviously.  It might surprise some folks.  Besides I like to root for the underdog.

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zakaria
zakaria Veteran Member • Posts: 5,142
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again
4

Iam a multi user system including Nikon fujifilm and pentax.

I find myself using pentax more than the rest.

I can put the settings while I am closing my eyes when using pentax cameras.

I mean pentax building cameras for photography not for computerized people.

Yes I shifted to a point far from your point but I see a room for pentax in future. Pentax knows how to keep going on and survive.

We will see a new flagship aps/c soon and a premium lenses.

K1II successor will be in the market after dfa 21mm Ltd be released 42mp.

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ozdean
ozdean Forum Pro • Posts: 26,176
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again
2

You are right - Pentax have always been Photographer's Cameras.

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JasonTheBirder
JasonTheBirder Contributing Member • Posts: 570
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again
1

Well, I really doubt the DSLR is going away. Pentax is sticking with their niche and that's great. There's a place for it.

But there is no way I would ever buy the new Pentax for birding. Not only will the D500 smoke it guaranteed, but Pentax just doesn't have the lens lineup. As for weather sealing, the D500 is pretty weather sealed already.

ozdean
ozdean Forum Pro • Posts: 26,176
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again

In what way will the D500 smoke it?

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robbo d Senior Member • Posts: 2,983
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again

JasonTheBirder wrote:

Well, I really doubt the DSLR is going away. Pentax is sticking with their niche and that's great. There's a place for it.

Agreed.

But there is no way I would ever buy the new Pentax for birding.

Birding has a couple of main sub genre's.

1. People who do a lot of BIF; and

2. Like myself shoot birds in and around branches or in the water.

For BIF, you can use Pentax but the keeper rate is limited. For the other I mentioned, Pentax is perfectly adequate and we have some excellent examples on this forum.

Not only will the D500 smoke it guaranteed, but Pentax just doesn't have the lens lineup. As for weather sealing, the D500 is pretty weather sealed already.

I think it will take an almighty effort for Pentax to come close to the D500's AF, however in the "ball park" means a gigantic step forward for Pentaxians and a camera that would still be very very capable; however

If all you consider the D500 for is AF, then it's a one-trick pony ( and maybe a pony I wouldn't mind in my stable), however

The new Pentax coming out will most likely have a 26mp sensor, with pixel shift and IBIS, not to mention any other goodies that Pentax may deem important.

So in all around terms the new Pentax could "smoke" the D500. As regards AF, we will have to see how much smoke ...........

There is more to a camera than pure AF performance ( as many of the faithfull will gladly tell you).... and it's absolutely true if your a walkabout, landscape, still life, street shooter of which there are a HUGE number in the overall marketplace.

I Loved the feel of the D500 as do I the D7500. I think the Nikon bodies have a nice balance of size and weight. Much is made of the Pentax ergonomics by the faithful and while I agree to a point, I find my pinky finger goes missing with the K5/K3 series and while some love the weighty feel, they could be described as tanks.....

The birding lens line up has limited modern 3rd party support. The old Bigma is getting a little long in the tooth, therefore you are restricted to Pentax's own DA300, or 55-300, plus the DA560 or the 150-450.

Certainly not restricted on quality and the newer PLM version of the 55-300 is a 'peach' by all accounts. Just missing the Sigma and Tamron options.

Could the new Pentax be the 'all round' camera that is the best crop DSLR ever to grace the market ??   hmmmm possibly.....

viska Regular Member • Posts: 382
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again
1

It Could or it Couldn't,it Will but it Wont!

Whatever they release it will be a Pentax and the PHanbois will be all over it.

Fuji is leading Apsc by a fair way in "all rounder",4 different models to choose from and 2 predicted over the next 9 months.The D500 has been smoked in many aspects(not buffer),so Ricoh have a steep hill to climb.

It'll be interesting how good they can do it?

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robbo d Senior Member • Posts: 2,983
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again
3

ozdean wrote:

You are right - Pentax have always been Photographer's Cameras.

I'm not quite sure that you really mean "photographers" cameras Dean ?

That's a pretty broad statement and a quintessential response from many Pentaxians.

I think you have to dig a bit deeper than that, because while I am reading between the lines of what your saying and part of me is nodding...... the guy with the Fuji or the Nikon using a manual focus lens on his Df or Xt2 might have a bit to say about that and many of those other brands have their legacy style and highly regarded lenses.

  • Solidly built,
  • not relying on blistering speed,
  • nicely crafted bodies,
  • Lenses that don't do MTF charts but have an indescribable feel,
  • feature sets that go the opposite way to the most, and
  • Not following the masses.

People that aren't in a hurry but enjoy taking time with their images, which includes Pentax owners but most definitely does not preclude any other brand user.

Because we who shoot with camera's are all photographers.

It's a bit like preferring a Jag to a Porsche maybe ???

Pentax have a leaning towards a style of photography, which doesn't give them exclusive right to that genre.

I've been to the dark side (Nikon) and I've shot with a Praktika, Canon and Fuji and have had success and enjoyment with all.

Maybe Pentaxians in general just prefer a bit of craftsmanship, un-hurried shooting, solid feel and features that works more particularly for their style ...??

Or is it really just a bit of emotion in there 

robbo d Senior Member • Posts: 2,983
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again

viska wrote:

It Could or it Couldn't,it Will but it Wont!

Whatever they release it will be a Pentax and the PHanbois will be all over it.

Fuji is leading Apsc by a fair way in "all rounder",4 different models to choose from and 2 predicted over the next 9 months.The D500 has been smoked in many aspects(not buffer),so Ricoh have a steep hill to climb.

It'll be interesting how good they can do it?

Agreed, Fuji are nailing apsc

But in respect to the OP, maybe the new Pentax will be the best DSLR out there ....

whether that really matter or not is a matter for us to 'pay our tickets and watch the show'

viska Regular Member • Posts: 382
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again

Yes,RI keep too many secrets though!

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JasonTheBirder
JasonTheBirder Contributing Member • Posts: 570
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again

ozdean wrote:

In what way will the D500 smoke it?

AF surely. For Pentax to equal the D500 system, they would have to make a quantum leap in development.

JoeDaBassPlayer Veteran Member • Posts: 3,722
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again

I bought a KP, and it will be here tomorrow. However, I would prefer not to have the viewfinder and gone mirrorless, like my K 01.

I remember walking into the local Best Buy a couple years ago and seeing a huge display of Nex cameras, and realized Pentax could have had a lot of that, had they not succumbed to the pressure when the K 01 came out.

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 11,409
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again

robbo d wrote:

ozdean wrote:

You are right - Pentax have always been Photographer's Cameras.

I'm not quite sure that you really mean "photographers" cameras Dean ?

Why not? He's not claiming exclusivity, so no photographers should feel attacked for not using Pentax.

They're not sold on hype, marketing, video capabilities...

Alex

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viska Regular Member • Posts: 382
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again
1

Hype, not from RI but what about from users."Bang4 $"...long gone."IQ" similar to most digitals to most people."pixelShift" most others have it and OLY have genuine handheld.But that "baked in" feature certainly gets some attention.

Marketing,its done in his lunch hour after he eats his lunch.Accountant in the morning,lens development(by himself) in the afternoon.

Video capability,Yes its 2008 level when you buy Pentax which is perfectly good for those that dwell in the dark ages!

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JasonTheBirder
JasonTheBirder Contributing Member • Posts: 570
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again
2

zakaria wrote:

Iam a multi user system including Nikon fujifilm and pentax.

I find myself using pentax more than the rest.

I can put the settings while I am closing my eyes when using pentax cameras.

This is interesting. My favourite brand is Nikon, and I love the D500. I think it's the best camera ever!

However, I will say this about Pentax: their usability, controls, and menu system I think is superior to Nikon and other brands in most ways. The menu system is particularly intuitive. They also have a handy feature where each day of shooting is put in a date-specific folder. The Nikon D500 doesn't have that. The control wheels on my Pentax cameras also seem a little nicer than the Nikon's control wheels.

Pentax does have that charm that doesn't seem to be captured by other brands.

TacticDesigns
TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 7,598
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again

Curtis B wrote:

Firstly let me admit I don't shoot with a Pentax DSLR at present. I'm posting here because Pentax made me think of something. It's that APS-C flagship camera people are talking about. Some people are doomsayers and think it's a mistake because Pentax isn't doing mirrorless. I'm sort of contrarian. So although I still shoot a Nikon DSLR to be honest I like something that charts a different course from the rest of the industry too. It got me thinking because I was interested in a new crop sensor body for walking around.

I mainly shoot with Nikon dSLR cameras when I shoot indoor sports or paid work.

But I also have Pentax APS-C dSLR cameras.

I used to have a Canon APS-C dSLR camera.

And I also have a Pentax Q mirrorless, along with a few compact cameras.

First an analogy. I'm old enough that when I was young we still bought our music on cassette and 8 track tapes and vinyl records. Then along came CDs. Before too long sales of vinyl records were declining and everyone seemed to be going with CDs. The death of the vinyl record was an oft repeated refrain. Well they never quite died off. Soon enough MP3 came along. Pretty soon it was the death of the CD. Now I gather there's a resurgence in vinyl to where they are outselling CDs. What was old is new again.

I think, from what I read, is that some prefer the sound of vinyl versus CD.

Analog vs. digital.

My hearing is not that good. So for me personally, I would probably not hear any difference either way.

As long as the sound system I am listening to isn't crap I'd be happy.

But on the other hand, part of this might just be nostalgia. Just a desire to go back to simpler things.

Sort of like what I consider the desire to have a Volkswagen Beetle, or a Ford Mustang, or the bringing back of the Ford Bronco.

IMHO . . . if something was a good idea, and it continues to be a good idea . . . then if you keep making it, and it makes sense for someone, then why isn't that a good thing?

Like dSLR.

DSLRs (along with SLRs) might seem redundant to some but I think predictions of an imminent extinction might be premature.

Ok.

Here's my story.

I got a Nikon D5100 back in 2011 in order to chase my daughter around at gymnastics competitions.

And . . . 9 years later, I still have that camera. It still works. And it can still get shots at gymnastics . . . although, now both my daughters do cheer.

As a parent, that was probably the last camera I needed.

Where as, just before that, I was buying a dSLR every couple of years just to get better quality pictures.

IMHO we are at the point where the dSLR cameras being sold right now might very well be the last dSLR camera that we need.

So . . . that means less sales for dSLR manufacturers.

IMHO, I think companies like Nikon or Canon are recognizing that, and deciding that, hey . . . if we can't sell another dSLR (because a person already has one and its still good), then maybe they could sell some mirrorless (either to the same person, or to some other target consumer.)

But here's the issue as I see it.

If Nikon or Canon is looking at this and thinking . . . ok, no one wants dSLR cameras anymore, which we are guessing because no one is buying any right now, then we will stop making dSLR cameras.

But . . . as I pointed out, the Nikon D5100 I picked up in 2011 is still working. I am still getting the pictures I want from it. It's no wonder I haven't replaced it. LOL.

But . . . when it finally goes, will the mirrorless cameras then be good enough to shoot indoor sports?

If so, then I guess I am in the market for a mirrorless camera then.

But, if the mirrorless are still not ideal for indoor sports, and the dSLR was the better solution . . . but Canon and Nikon have stopped making dSLR cameras because they thought everyone didn't want them, guess what, I'm screwed! LOL.

Another thing: lets look at what sells well for Fujifilm. Rangefinder cameras were the original mirrorless cameras of course so the XPro cameras sort of leverage that tradition but what are people really buying? There's good color science of course but those film emulations are popular. Digitalized analog. The design of the X-Pro 3 is similar. Instead of the place to put the piece of the film box it's a little screen. Digitalized analog. Then there's the X-T4. I have buddies that love those but what is it they like about it? It's the analog feel of the body at least in part. It's mirrorless sure but it looks like an SLR and it sells well.

I just got to thinking maybe the DSLR come SLR retro thing hasn't quite got to where people realize it's not going away. It is retro though. It's all about market share and such which I get. Market share can fluctuate though in time. I'm willing to bet there will continue to be a niche for folks that like the SLR form particularly if it has that digital analog element. Eventually there will be a bottom in the market probably. Things may turn bullish for the SLR much as it did for vinyl. It may even prove to be the case for film SLRs. Brand new ones that aren't 50 years old etc.

If Canon or Nikon stop making dSLR lenses . . . as time goes on, the dSLR lenses out there will all mostly breakdown.

Without dSLR lenses to put on dSLR cameras, there will be no need to buy a dSLR camera.

So . . . if Nikon only makes mirrorless lenses, and no dSLR lenses . . . they will be forcing Nikon users to either go mirrorless or go somewhere else.

It would seem everyone is betting on mirrorless though these days.

As I mentioned above . . . it may be because dSLR cameras now-a-days or so darn good that once you buy one, then you don't need to buy another one for 10-15 years now.

So . . . what are the camera manufacturers supposed to sell in the meantime.

If there is a market for mirrorless, then it makes sense to go after it.

If they sell a new body, then that person is going to need new lenses.

Some people use that as a basis to say Pentax should do the same. Join he crowd right? Or does it suggest that if the market share stabilizes and shifts like it did with CDs and vinyl records that a Pentax for instance might have a cozy little niche. People used to characterize Fuji as a niche camera company but I think you could say that's changed.

So yeah I might be a Nikon owner. This line of reasoning though has sort of sparked my interest in weatherized cameras for use in the outdoors too.

For me, a good weatherized camera is why I think I keep looking at Pentax.

I think for folks that do wildlife and birding the APS-C might not be that bad an idea.

IMHO for a family camera for vacations or get-togethers, APS-C makes a lot of sense.

The sensor performance is pretty good. It is capable of a lot.

But also, the lenses don't need to be really big in order to cover a wide range.

An APS-C superzoom isn't so big that you wouldn't want to drag it along on your vacation.

If it works there is a niche for it. Probably a fairly large one in terms of the bird guys. Business involves risk so I'm not predicting a massive turnaround. Just observing that in terms of technological obsolescence it's pretty unlikely we'll see the SLR go extinct and Pentax might be well positioned if they can build on it like Fuji did.

A new flagship APS-C DSLR might seem counterintuitive. I'm not convinced it won't work though obviously. It might surprise some folks. Besides I like to root for the underdog.

The other option is something like the Nikon D780.

It is a dSLR. But it can do a mirrorless mode (liveview) that has phase-detect autofocus.

What it doesn't have is an EVF (Electronic Viewfinder) or the ability to use the new Z mirrorless lenses.

But . . . it is a kinda little bit of each world type camera.

Ok. But getting back to the idea of this thread . . .

. . . I am really happy with dSLR cameras. They work really well for what I use them for.

- Indoor Sports (low light / fast moving subjects / need for good AF and sensor performance.)

- Long day shoots. At competitions, I could be shooting over 8-10 hours. Not continuously. But in between routines, I spend my time making selects in-camera. A dSLR . . . I can shoot an entire day on a single battery. Which means if I bring another 2 back-up batteries . . . I am set.

- Works with the lenses I have. If I went mirrorless, I'd have to buy new lenses. That is very expensive and not in my cards. LOL.

For me, I would have been happy if everything stuck with dSLR because I have the equipment I need now.

I am happy to see the Nikon D780 because that means when my Nikon D750 wears out, I have the potential to stick with dSLR just a bit longer. Something I'd be happy to do because it would be cheaper, but also if no mirrorless camera screams out at me as saying . . . I am the solution to all your problems! LOL.

As for Pentax dSLR.

I have it in the back of my mind to have 2 more Pentax dSLR cameras.

One would be a weather resistant APS-C camera that doesn't cost me an arm and a leg for vacation.

And the other would be a full frame dSLR to use the old manual focus Pentax lenses my dad gave me.

EDIT: I am thinking that there might be some people stuck in analysis-paralysis in that they have a dSLR system. They have looked at mirrorless, but really haven't seen a system that is calling out to them. Pentax might want to try to pull in all the people happy with dSLR and lock them in as customers. Once they get a body, the body can last for 10-15 years now. And everyone could just buy the odd lens or flash unit over the next 10-15 years.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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robbo d Senior Member • Posts: 2,983
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again

Alex Sarbu wrote:

robbo d wrote:

ozdean wrote:

You are right - Pentax have always been Photographer's Cameras.

I'm not quite sure that you really mean "photographers" cameras Dean ?

Why not? He's not claiming exclusivity, so no photographers should feel attacked for not using Pentax.

I completely understand and that is why I've heard this claim before..... a bit like a "drivers car"

However I suspect it's a statement made out of emotion and preference rather than substance.

A drivers car is something like an Alfa Romeo or porsche which,in the right hands will reward a skilled driver to go faster than the average car.

Pentax are nice cameras, solidly built, a slightly older but slowly renewing lens lineup, very good image quality arguably marginally higher in some respects to some others but not necessarily overall, but relatively poor AF.

Do they make better images in the hands of a skilled photographer? Not really...

They're not sold on hype, marketing, video capabilities...

Alex

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zakaria
zakaria Veteran Member • Posts: 5,142
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again

JasonTheBirder wrote:

zakaria wrote:

Iam a multi user system including Nikon fujifilm and pentax.

I find myself using pentax more than the rest.

I can put the settings while I am closing my eyes when using pentax cameras.

This is interesting. My favourite brand is Nikon, and I love the D500. I think it's the best camera ever!

I have had it .yes its superior regarding af though the IQ is not that kind I love.

I like pentax IQ .

However, I will say this about Pentax: their usability, controls, and menu system I think is superior to Nikon and other brands in most ways. The menu system is particularly intuitive. They also have a handy feature where each day of shooting is put in a date-specific folder. The Nikon D500 doesn't have that. The control wheels on my Pentax cameras also seem a little nicer than the Nikon's control wheels.

Pentax does have that charm that doesn't seem to be captured by other brands.

Indeed.

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pentaxian .

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ozdean
ozdean Forum Pro • Posts: 26,176
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again
2

When I photograph;

I like an optical viewfinder and mechanical Shutter

I like to shoot in the Rain

I like deadly accurate micro adjust AF for Stationary subjects

I like to shoot centre AFC - I pan, not track

I like 4-5 stops of SR on all lenses - old & new

I like Limited and * Glass

I like auto Horizon Correction

I like to follow the stars

I like Bullet Proof Little Tanks

I like great Jpg custom imaging

I like Hi IQ PS when I can take my time

I like to shoot in the snow

I like to shoot in the 40c +heat

I like reliability

I like to shoot anywhere anytime

I choose Pentax - but that's just me.

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viska Regular Member • Posts: 382
Re: Opinion. What's Old Is New Again
1

I like decent moving pictures.

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