For $999

Started 9 months ago | Discussions
MAC Forum Pro • Posts: 15,450
Re: Rp ruined by old sensor tech
2

tkbslc wrote:

nnowak wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

nnowak wrote:

In the USA, the M6 II with the EF-M 15-45mm f/3.5-6.3 and EVF-DC2 is currently $999. The EOS RP with the RF 24-105mm f/4-7.1 is now on sale for the same $999. Both kits get you an EVF and 24-XXX general purpose zoom. If you are already invested in the EF-M or RF mount, the price of the alternative is probably of little interest. If you are transitioning from the Canon DSLRs, the choice gets more interesting. While the M6 II is lighter than the RP kit, the RP kit is lighter than many of the crop sensor DSLR kits and much lighter than any of the full frame DSLRs.

I was really tempted by the RP for a minute, but the sensor is really bad. Has less DR than even 1" compacts and 4/3. Just look through any sample gallery and you'll find slightly clipped highlights and crushed blacks. Download some RAW files and try to edit them and you'll find the same thing where colors are easily clipped. The files can't really be pushed at all. It's a decent camera body, but it has a sensor that belongs in 2009. The only place where it beats the M6 II is at ISO 12800.

Not to mention, the AF, Video and shooting performance is higher on the M6 II (or any similarly priced crop mirrorless).

I'd say just get a used 6D for <$500 over the RP. Might as well get 10 year old camera prices if you are using the 10 year old sensor tech.

(And before someone calls me a DR snob, I'm not saying I need to push 5 stops, but when it clips significantly easier than even a G7X, then I'd say it's got a problem)

The RP sensor is far from state of the art, but to suggest that 1" and m4/3 sensors are superior is utter nonsense.

To be fair, I was only talking about low ISO DR. Obviously detail and ISO noise will be superior. I'm sure DR above base ISO will be better, too.

Correct.

Dustin Abbott shows you can push base iso 2 stops with the RP whereas 4 stops with the R

but as I said, with the control ring set to exposure compensation and having exposure simulation on board, I haven’t had any issues in getting the exposure right straight out of the camera.  You can always bracket exposures if you need even more dr for iso 50 landscapes

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scrup Regular Member • Posts: 488
Re: For $999

tkbslc wrote:

Given we are talking the Rp, I disagree thanks to the sensor. If you get the R, yes.

I think you are way overacting to the RP sensor.

People are using older tech and still get great pictures. Sure new tech is better, but there are compromises with price.

This is a 1k camera that gets you into the RF system. If you don't plan on growing with the system, that's fine, buy into the M cameras.

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MAC Forum Pro • Posts: 15,450
Re: For $999
2

scrup wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

Given we are talking the Rp, I disagree thanks to the sensor. If you get the R, yes.

I think you are way overacting to the RP sensor.

agree

People are using older tech and still get great pictures.

true

Sure new tech is better, but there are compromises with price.

i paid $850 for my 26 mpxl FF RP - watch Dustin Abbott’s review

This is a 1k camera that gets you into the RF system.

yep - it is a gateway to the great RF glass - I have the great RF 24-105 f4 L - I paid $899 for it - nothing like this zoom with the m

If you don't plan on growing with the system, that's fine, buy into the M cameras.

I’m predicting the new RF 50 f1.8 stm beats the m 32

and I’m predicting the new RF 85 f2 IS beats the siggy 56

we shall see

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Bolothegreat Contributing Member • Posts: 712
Re: For $999

Lol of course the new RF should be better than the M....but also lot heavier & bulkier ☝️😀

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MAC Forum Pro • Posts: 15,450
Re: For $999

Bolothegreat wrote:

Lol of course the new RF should be better than the M....but also lot heavier & bulkier ☝️😀

I thought you would also add - and a bit more in price

the RP + RF 24-105 L fits in my jacket pockets

i think the new RF 50 f1.8 and RF 85 F2 IS might not be a lot bigger either

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tkbslc Forum Pro • Posts: 15,568
Re: Rp ruined by old sensor tech

MAC wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

nnowak wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

nnowak wrote:

In the USA, the M6 II with the EF-M 15-45mm f/3.5-6.3 and EVF-DC2 is currently $999. The EOS RP with the RF 24-105mm f/4-7.1 is now on sale for the same $999. Both kits get you an EVF and 24-XXX general purpose zoom. If you are already invested in the EF-M or RF mount, the price of the alternative is probably of little interest. If you are transitioning from the Canon DSLRs, the choice gets more interesting. While the M6 II is lighter than the RP kit, the RP kit is lighter than many of the crop sensor DSLR kits and much lighter than any of the full frame DSLRs.

I was really tempted by the RP for a minute, but the sensor is really bad. Has less DR than even 1" compacts and 4/3. Just look through any sample gallery and you'll find slightly clipped highlights and crushed blacks. Download some RAW files and try to edit them and you'll find the same thing where colors are easily clipped. The files can't really be pushed at all. It's a decent camera body, but it has a sensor that belongs in 2009. The only place where it beats the M6 II is at ISO 12800.

Not to mention, the AF, Video and shooting performance is higher on the M6 II (or any similarly priced crop mirrorless).

I'd say just get a used 6D for <$500 over the RP. Might as well get 10 year old camera prices if you are using the 10 year old sensor tech.

(And before someone calls me a DR snob, I'm not saying I need to push 5 stops, but when it clips significantly easier than even a G7X, then I'd say it's got a problem)

The RP sensor is far from state of the art, but to suggest that 1" and m4/3 sensors are superior is utter nonsense.

To be fair, I was only talking about low ISO DR. Obviously detail and ISO noise will be superior. I'm sure DR above base ISO will be better, too.

Correct.

Dustin Abbott shows you can push base iso 2 stops with the RP whereas 4 stops with the R

but as I said, with the control ring set to exposure compensation and having exposure simulation on board, I haven’t had any issues in getting the exposure right straight out of the camera. You can always bracket exposures if you need even more dr for iso

I really do think it’s perfect for me otherwise, maybe I’ll have a closer look.  I might be a bit overly critical after reading some negative reviews.

Bolothegreat Contributing Member • Posts: 712
Re: For $999

MAC wrote:

Bolothegreat wrote:

Lol of course the new RF should be better than the M....but also lot heavier & bulkier ☝️😀

I thought you would also add - and a bit more in price

the RP + RF 24-105 L fits in my jacket pockets

i think the new RF 50 f1.8 and RF 85 F2 IS might not be a lot bigger either

Lol of course...not much of a prediction

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Icagel Forum Member • Posts: 57
Re: For $999
2

I was choosing M6 II or RP. M6 won for following reasons:

  1. 80% of pictures were on ISO100
  2. 93% of pictures were on ISO100-800 range
  3. Smaller
  4. Lighter
  5. Much faster
  6. Overall cheaper and smaller system (this camera only for my hobby and family pics, traveling)
  7. better DR and with downloaded RAW pictures was really visible

So based on my statistics I need best high iso performance not so often. But if you do not shoot any action so RP is still very good option.

What I miss in M6:

weather sealing, good native telezoom, still no fast zoom but looks like I do not miss it. There is some M line lenses on the way I hope I would really like to see 300 f4 lens for M mount. No mater who will make such lens. But probably it will not happen.

RP as FF camera has  really better DR only above 1200 so it is not an issue for myself.

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thunder storm Senior Member • Posts: 6,278
Re: For $999

nnowak wrote:

Zen4Life wrote:

Wouldn't price also have to not matter because each full frame lens you buy is going to cost you significantly more than EF-M lenses?

Depends a lot on which lenses you are comparing. For example, the full frame EF 85mm f/1.8 is less expensive than the EF-M mount Sigma 56mm f/1.4. There are also a lot of full frame 50mm lenses that are less expensive than the EF-M 32mm f/1.4.

My Tamron 85mm has IS, and i payed 475 euro for a used one in stead of 430 for the 56mm f/1.4.

My sigma 50mm Art was 350 euro used in stead of 470 for the 32mm f/1.4.

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EF glass = bang for my buck

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thunder storm Senior Member • Posts: 6,278
Re: new RF lenses coming

MAC wrote:

nnowak wrote:

Zen4Life wrote:

Wouldn't price also have to not matter because each full frame lens you buy is going to cost you significantly more than EF-M lenses?

Depends a lot on which lenses you are comparing. For example, the full frame EF 85mm f/1.8 is less expensive than the EF-M mount Sigma 56mm f/1.4. There are also a lot of full frame 50mm lenses that are less expensive than the EF-M 32mm f/1.4.

https://fstoppers.com/gear/canons-2020-rf-lens-roadmap-emerges-six-new-lenses-including-nifty-fifty-and-two-492461

I'll probably get the 50 and 85 if bokeh is good, sharpness wide open is good, and fringing is minimal

the 85 has IS too which is a big benefit

Tough choice between that Canon RF 85 and the Samyang f/1.4.

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EF glass = bang for my buck

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thunder storm Senior Member • Posts: 6,278
Re: For $999
2

Alastair Norcross wrote:

nnowak wrote:

Zen4Life wrote:

Wouldn't price also have to not matter because each full frame lens you buy is going to cost you significantly more than EF-M lenses?

Depends a lot on which lenses you are comparing. For example, the full frame EF 85mm f/1.8 is less expensive than the EF-M mount Sigma 56mm f/1.4.

True (by a little). But I would take the M6II with 56 any day over the RP with 85. The RP is 2/3 to 1 stop better at high ISO than the M6II, so noise performance will be indistinguishable between them. And the 56 is a much better lens (I have both). And the M6II has far far better performance than the RP. If you're going to go full frame, the RP is not the way to go. You give up way too much compared with the M6II. This whole thing, which seems to come up quite often, of saying that you may as well go full frame, because you can get the RP for about the same as the M6II, and it isn't too much bigger, is very misleading. You are comparing a very basic entry-level full frame camera with a really sophisticated APS-C. If you really want to take advantage of what full frame has to offer,

No. The RP has definitely something more to offer than the M6mkII:

- full frame lenses will give you way more sharpness and way better IQ on the RP

- You can enjoy that IQ right now, saving money on the body, still investing in the glass for once you upgrade to that body.

With the M6mkII you are investing a lot in a body, not so much in glass. With the RP you are investing more in glass, not so much in the body.

Bodies come and go. Glass stays. With the RP you're not primarily buying a body and next to it some glass. With the RP you are buying primarily good glass, and next to that a body to run it, until you can afford the better body.

you will spend a lot more, and have a much bigger and heavier kit. That's fine. I might even do it myself one day. But let's not kid ourselves about what it takes to surpass what you can do with the M6II and good EF-M primes with a full frame kit. There is no free lunch.

As for now you will end up with a compact camera being compatible with only mediocre zooms or adapted big and heavy yet not great zoom lenses.

You should compare apples to apples:

- full frame zooms on full frame bodies to crop zooms on crop bodies

- full frame primes on full frame bodies to crop primes on crop bodies

When comparing apples to apples the advantage of the RP becomes very clear. It blows the M6mkII out of the water in the IQ department. "Yes but the sensor, the senor!" A good sensor is only needed in low light. When there's good light the sensor of the RP is fine. We all know as a Canon lover you don't care about dynamic range, so no problems there either.

There are also situations with too much light. At least the full frame lenses are compatible with bodies with a 1/8000th maximum shutter speed. Add to that on a full frame body you only need f/2.2  to get the same shallow dof compared to f/1.4 on crop, and it becomes clear that even the RP with it's 1/4000th max shutter speed is the winner in this department too.

I bought into the M system at first, because of the great deals on the original M. I stayed with it, and grew with it, because it offers amazingly good quality at low prices and small sizes. And it's such fun to use. I've been an avid photographer since I was a teenager, when I taught myself developing and printing, and loaded my own canisters of Tri-X from 100 foot rolls. I have never been as satisfied with my photographic gear as I am now with the M system. I carry an M with me everywhere I go. I simply wouldn't do that with an RP.

You do with mediocre zooms, and primes being very good on crop level, but nothing against full frame primes.

There are also a lot of full frame 50mm lenses that are less expensive than the EF-M 32mm f/1.4.

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thunder storm Senior Member • Posts: 6,278
Re: Rp ruined by old sensor tech

MAC wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

nnowak wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

nnowak wrote:

In the USA, the M6 II with the EF-M 15-45mm f/3.5-6.3 and EVF-DC2 is currently $999. The EOS RP with the RF 24-105mm f/4-7.1 is now on sale for the same $999. Both kits get you an EVF and 24-XXX general purpose zoom. If you are already invested in the EF-M or RF mount, the price of the alternative is probably of little interest. If you are transitioning from the Canon DSLRs, the choice gets more interesting. While the M6 II is lighter than the RP kit, the RP kit is lighter than many of the crop sensor DSLR kits and much lighter than any of the full frame DSLRs.

I was really tempted by the RP for a minute, but the sensor is really bad. Has less DR than even 1" compacts and 4/3. Just look through any sample gallery and you'll find slightly clipped highlights and crushed blacks. Download some RAW files and try to edit them and you'll find the same thing where colors are easily clipped. The files can't really be pushed at all. It's a decent camera body, but it has a sensor that belongs in 2009. The only place where it beats the M6 II is at ISO 12800.

Not to mention, the AF, Video and shooting performance is higher on the M6 II (or any similarly priced crop mirrorless).

I'd say just get a used 6D for <$500 over the RP. Might as well get 10 year old camera prices if you are using the 10 year old sensor tech.

(And before someone calls me a DR snob, I'm not saying I need to push 5 stops, but when it clips significantly easier than even a G7X, then I'd say it's got a problem)

The RP sensor is far from state of the art, but to suggest that 1" and m4/3 sensors are superior is utter nonsense.

To be fair, I was only talking about low ISO DR. Obviously detail and ISO noise will be superior. I'm sure DR above base ISO will be better, too.

Correct.

Dustin Abbott shows you can push base iso 2 stops with the RP

And that's without corrections of vignetting (!!!)  Have you seen the vignetting of some RF lenses?  A lot of lenses will eat all the room there is.

whereas 4 stops with the R

but as I said, with the control ring set to exposure compensation and having exposure simulation on board, I haven’t had any issues in getting the exposure right straight out of the camera. You can always bracket exposures if you need even more dr for iso 50 landscapes

That's unfair, that's with a skilled photographer.

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EF glass = bang for my buck

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BearInDespair New Member • Posts: 16
Re: For $999

Can't compere M6 mark 2 to RP as I never used it.

M50 vs RP on paper no big difference but when you use the RP is on another level. Handling of RP is so much better, size, grip, AF, depth of field, moving AF points on lcd screen is so fluid, controls. Much more well rounded camera, I was not sure about RP in the beginning but the more I use it i can see the differences in favor of it.

My M50 will be inherited by my girlfriend if it survives visit to the service as it broke down.

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Sittatunga Senior Member • Posts: 2,724
Re: For $999

Icagel wrote:

I was choosing M6 II or RP. M6 won for following reasons:

  1. 80% of pictures were on ISO100
  2. 93% of pictures were on ISO100-800 range
  3. Smaller
  4. Lighter
  5. Much faster
  6. Overall cheaper and smaller system (this camera only for my hobby and family pics, traveling)
  7. better DR and with downloaded RAW pictures was really visible

So based on my statistics I need best high iso performance not so often. But if you do not shoot any action so RP is still very good option.

What I miss in M6:

weather sealing,

Not sure I do. Fuji have just released a non-weather sealed version of their 35mm lens. It's got the same glass as the original, but it's less than half the price... I'd rather use a plastic bag, as seals don't last forever.  Be careful what you ask for.

good native telezoom, still no fast zoom but looks like I do not miss it. There is some M line lenses on the way I hope I would really like to see 300 f4 lens for M mount. No mater who will make such lens. But probably it will not happen.

An M mount lens with a 77mm or larger filter? Really? Would it be significantly smaller than the EF 300mm f/4 I use on my M mount cameras?

RP as FF camera has really better DR only above 1200 so it is not an issue for myself.

Icagel Forum Member • Posts: 57
Re: For $999

Sittatunga wrote:

Not sure I do. Fuji have just released a non-weather sealed version of their 35mm lens. It's got the same glass as the original, but it's less than half the price... I'd rather use a plastic bag, as seals don't last forever. Be careful what you ask for.

good native telezoom, still no fast zoom but looks like I do not miss it. There is some M line lenses on the way I hope I would really like to see 300 f4 lens for M mount. No mater who will make such lens. But probably it will not happen.

An M mount lens with a 77mm or larger filter? Really? Would it be significantly smaller than the EF 300mm f/4 I use on my M mount cameras?

RP as FF camera has really better DR only above 1200 so it is not an issue for myself.

As for sealing it is really not so important : I also gave plastic seal and never used it

And as for 300 f4 it just my dream to have native lens, I could survive with canon 70-300 ef nano USM as well.

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Sittatunga Senior Member • Posts: 2,724
Re: For $999

Icagel wrote:

Sittatunga wrote:

Not sure I do. Fuji have just released a non-weather sealed version of their 35mm lens. It's got the same glass as the original, but it's less than half the price... I'd rather use a plastic bag, as seals don't last forever. Be careful what you ask for.

good native telezoom, still no fast zoom but looks like I do not miss it. There is some M line lenses on the way I hope I would really like to see 300 f4 lens for M mount. No mater who will make such lens. But probably it will not happen.

An M mount lens with a 77mm or larger filter? Really? Would it be significantly smaller than the EF 300mm f/4 I use on my M mount cameras?

RP as FF camera has really better DR only above 1200 so it is not an issue for myself.

As for sealing it is really not so important : I also gave plastic seal and never used it

And as for 300 f4 it just my dream to have native lens, I could survive with canon 70-300 ef nano USM as well.

The EF 300mm is as near native as makes no matter, the adapter is tiny compared to the lens and the lens works on DSLRs and RF mounts too.  It's the sensible choice for anyone who isn't going to limit themselves to the EOS M part of the system.  That makes the market for an EOS M version tiny, which would make an EOS M version more expensive than the EF version, so it's very unlikely to happen.  300mm f/5.6 is more of a possibility, but lenses like that stopped being popular in the 20th Century thanks to zooms.

MAC Forum Pro • Posts: 15,450
Re: Rp ruined by old sensor tech

thunder storm wrote:

MAC wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

nnowak wrote:

tkbslc wrote:

nnowak wrote:

In the USA, the M6 II with the EF-M 15-45mm f/3.5-6.3 and EVF-DC2 is currently $999. The EOS RP with the RF 24-105mm f/4-7.1 is now on sale for the same $999. Both kits get you an EVF and 24-XXX general purpose zoom. If you are already invested in the EF-M or RF mount, the price of the alternative is probably of little interest. If you are transitioning from the Canon DSLRs, the choice gets more interesting. While the M6 II is lighter than the RP kit, the RP kit is lighter than many of the crop sensor DSLR kits and much lighter than any of the full frame DSLRs.

I was really tempted by the RP for a minute, but the sensor is really bad. Has less DR than even 1" compacts and 4/3. Just look through any sample gallery and you'll find slightly clipped highlights and crushed blacks. Download some RAW files and try to edit them and you'll find the same thing where colors are easily clipped. The files can't really be pushed at all. It's a decent camera body, but it has a sensor that belongs in 2009. The only place where it beats the M6 II is at ISO 12800.

Not to mention, the AF, Video and shooting performance is higher on the M6 II (or any similarly priced crop mirrorless).

I'd say just get a used 6D for <$500 over the RP. Might as well get 10 year old camera prices if you are using the 10 year old sensor tech.

(And before someone calls me a DR snob, I'm not saying I need to push 5 stops, but when it clips significantly easier than even a G7X, then I'd say it's got a problem)

The RP sensor is far from state of the art, but to suggest that 1" and m4/3 sensors are superior is utter nonsense.

To be fair, I was only talking about low ISO DR. Obviously detail and ISO noise will be superior. I'm sure DR above base ISO will be better, too.

Correct.

Dustin Abbott shows you can push base iso 2 stops with the RP

And that's without corrections of vignetting (!!!)

you make a good point for those f1.2/f1.4 primes with a lot of vignetting - I’d recommend the R for that application.  But for the RF 24-105 F4L I have not seen a noise issue for in camera corrected photos.  The only setting Optical Limits shows that might raise concern is at 24 mm  and F4 where ev in corners is just above 2 - but that would be a rare setting for me.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I will study vignetting of primes in the corners before purchasing primes for my RP.  I’m hopeful the new RF50 f1.8 and RF 85 f2 will control vignetting

Have you seen the vignetting of some RF lenses? A lot of lenses will eat all the room there is.

good point for buying the R if into f1.2/f1.4 primes

whereas 4 stops with the R

but as I said, with the control ring set to exposure compensation and having exposure simulation on board, I haven’t had any issues in getting the exposure right straight out of the camera. You can always bracket exposures if you need even more dr for iso 50 landscapes

That's unfair, that's with a skilled photographer.

by the way, my shoot went really well.  1200 shots in 1 hour.  I used the RF 24-105 f4 on the RP with 580 II and diffuser mag mod globe onboard and on the 6d I used 100L with Odin trigger and dual ocf speedlights on light stand.

the lights kept up outside in the shade as I popped shot after shot

btw- no way would I live without internal EVF and speed light  - so the m6ii would not have worked at all for me

the client commented that the colors and clarity were great

the focus was spot on

wow - I love the RF 24-105 F4L and the $850 RP was my gateway to this great optics

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EF glass = bang for my buck

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wats0n Regular Member • Posts: 170
Re: For $999
5

The RP will provide you with superior image quality. Don’t let the “chart” folks fool you, the image quality of Canon’s FF sensors regardless of the dynamic range complaints is exceedingly better. Better per pixel detail, silky smooth noise free images, detail that looks crisp without sharpening, deeper colors and tones. Rent and compare as I did, sample galleries on these sites are rather inconsistent and poor to use as a gauge.

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Canon EOS RP Fujifilm X-T20 Canon RF 24-105mm F4.0-7.1 IS STM Fujifilm XF 35mm F2 R WR
m100 Regular Member • Posts: 438
Re: For $999

I wanted to see my 6D compared to the M6II with only DPP adjustments so I downloaded the raw files from DPR and ran them through DPP.  At ISO 12800.

Alastair Norcross Veteran Member • Posts: 7,692
Re: For $999

Good illustration. The 6D image holds up a little better, but just a little. At ISO 12800. At ISO 100, the M6II is actually better. But, if you have a full frame camera, and want to justify it to yourself, you will see all kinds of things in your images that aren't really there. But, if it makes you happy...

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As the length of a thread approaches 150, the probability that someone will make the obvious "it's not the camera, it's the photographer" remark approaches 1.
Alastair
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