Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

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Denis de Gannes
Denis de Gannes Senior Member • Posts: 1,994
Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

A friend in another is having problems with the WB and color rendering when processing DNG files from this camera model in Lightroom Classic.

Do any other users care to share their experience?

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Denis de Gannes

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Sigma sd Quattro
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Shawn67 Senior Member • Posts: 2,283
Re: Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

Not the SD but I do all my DP1 Quattro files in DNG with LR6. I adjust WB if needed and can change the color mode using the Profile setting in camera calibration. Works great.

I usually put the files through DNG Creator first to lossly compress them as it cuts the file size way down.

Shawn

Denis de Gannes
OP Denis de Gannes Senior Member • Posts: 1,994
Re: Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

Shawn67 wrote:

Not the SD but I do all my DP1 Quattro files in DNG with LR6. I adjust WB if needed and can change the color mode using the Profile setting in camera calibration. Works great.

I usually put the files through DNG Creator first to lossly compress them as it cuts the file size way down.

Shawn

So I just wish to clarify the problem. Lightroom does not have support for the Sigma  SD Quattro camera model. However the camera can write raw DNG files and Lightroom Classic can import the DNG file but the rendition by Adobe shows a significant shift to the WB and colors in the rendition compared to the Camera rendition. So do any users of this specific model experience if they create DNG files in Camera?

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Denis de Gannes

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Strelov Forum Member • Posts: 78
Re: Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

Denis de Gannes wrote:

Shawn67 wrote:

Not the SD but I do all my DP1 Quattro files in DNG with LR6. I adjust WB if needed and can change the color mode using the Profile setting in camera calibration. Works great.

I usually put the files through DNG Creator first to lossly compress them as it cuts the file size way down.

Shawn

So I just wish to clarify the problem. Lightroom does not have support for the Sigma SD Quattro camera model. However the camera can write raw DNG files and Lightroom Classic can import the DNG file but the rendition by Adobe shows a significant shift to the WB and colors in the rendition compared to the Camera rendition. So do any users of this specific model experience if they create DNG files in Camera?

I use X3F RAW which is the proper RAW. DNG is cooked because of the 3 layer design of the camera, meaning you don't have the same latitude in WB etc...

Try the DNGs with Darkroom or rawstudio and see how they handle the DNGs compared to LR.

Shawn67 Senior Member • Posts: 2,283
Re: Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

Strelov wrote:

Denis de Gannes wrote:

Shawn67 wrote:

Not the SD but I do all my DP1 Quattro files in DNG with LR6. I adjust WB if needed and can change the color mode using the Profile setting in camera calibration. Works great.

I usually put the files through DNG Creator first to lossly compress them as it cuts the file size way down.

Shawn

So I just wish to clarify the problem. Lightroom does not have support for the Sigma SD Quattro camera model. However the camera can write raw DNG files and Lightroom Classic can import the DNG file but the rendition by Adobe shows a significant shift to the WB and colors in the rendition compared to the Camera rendition. So do any users of this specific model experience if they create DNG files in Camera?

I use X3F RAW which is the proper RAW. DNG is cooked because of the 3 layer design of the camera, meaning you don't have the same latitude in WB etc...

Try the DNGs with Darkroom or rawstudio and see how they handle the DNGs compared to LR.

I doubt there is much difference in WB latitude between the RAW and linear DNG. It is not cooked into the DNG, just the 3 layers of data are built into the DNG.

Shawn

Shawn67 Senior Member • Posts: 2,283
Re: Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

Yes, it is exactly the same with the DP Quattros. LR can't handle the X3Fs but it can handle the in camera DNG files. I just go through the extra step of using Adobe DNG creator on those DNGs as it cuts the file size in half with no loss of quality.

Shawn

Denis de Gannes
OP Denis de Gannes Senior Member • Posts: 1,994
Re: Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

Shawn67 wrote:

Yes, it is exactly the same with the DP Quattros. LR can't handle the X3Fs but it can handle the in camera DNG files. I just go through the extra step of using Adobe DNG creator on those DNGs as it cuts the file size in half with no loss of quality.

Shawn

You state above "Adobe DNG Creator* are you referring to Adobe DNG Converter application?

Or possibly selecting the option when importing in Lightroom Classic, Copy as DNG and not Copy or Add?

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Denis de Gannes

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Shawn67 Senior Member • Posts: 2,283
Re: Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

Adobe DNG Converter. You feed it the DNG from the camera and it will losslessly compress it which cuts the file size in half.

Shawn

Denis de Gannes
OP Denis de Gannes Senior Member • Posts: 1,994
Re: Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

Will this in any way help with Lightroom's ability to improve the rendering of  the DNG?

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Denis de Gannes

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Denis de Gannes
OP Denis de Gannes Senior Member • Posts: 1,994
Re: Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

Ok, I tried processing through the Adobe DNG Converter,  and the file I choose was reduced from 153 MB to 61 MB but there is no apparent difference in the rendering.

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Denis de Gannes

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Shawn67 Senior Member • Posts: 2,283
Re: Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

Do you have a sample file somewhere? I see no rendering problems at all with DNGs in Lightroom 6 using DNGs from the DP1 Quattro and from the SD Quattro H.

https://www.dpreview.com/sample-galleries/4388344015/sigma-sd-quattro-h-real-world-samples-gallery/7611460513

If you are shooting above say 400 ISO that is a Foveon issue, not a LR issue.

Shawn

EEvan
EEvan Regular Member • Posts: 198
Re: Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

Denis de Gannes wrote:

Ok, I tried processing through the Adobe DNG Converter, and the file I choose was reduced from 153 MB to 61 MB but there is no apparent difference in the rendering.

Can you provide an example?

I ended up making profiles for each lens with a Color Checker to improve how LR rendered the images. That might be your best bet.

Denis de Gannes
OP Denis de Gannes Senior Member • Posts: 1,994
Re: Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

Shawn67 wrote:

Do you have a sample file somewhere? I see no rendering problems at all with DNGs in Lightroom 6 using DNGs from the DP1 Quattro and from the SD Quattro H.

https://www.dpreview.com/sample-galleries/4388344015/sigma-sd-quattro-h-real-world-samples-gallery/7611460513

If you are shooting above say 400 ISO that is a Foveon issue, not a LR issue.

Shawn

The issue I am referring to is with the SD Quattro, not the H model.

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Denis de Gannes

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Denis de Gannes
OP Denis de Gannes Senior Member • Posts: 1,994
Re: Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

Strelov wrote:

Denis de Gannes wrote:

Shawn67 wrote:

Not the SD but I do all my DP1 Quattro files in DNG with LR6. I adjust WB if needed and can change the color mode using the Profile setting in camera calibration. Works great.

I usually put the files through DNG Creator first to lossly compress them as it cuts the file size way down.

Shawn

So I just wish to clarify the problem. Lightroom does not have support for the Sigma SD Quattro camera model. However the camera can write raw DNG files and Lightroom Classic can import the DNG file but the rendition by Adobe shows a significant shift to the WB and colors in the rendition compared to the Camera rendition. So do any users of this specific model experience if they create DNG files in Camera?

I use X3F RAW which is the proper RAW. DNG is cooked because of the 3 layer design of the camera, meaning you don't have the same latitude in WB etc...

Try the DNGs with Darkroom or rawstudio and see how they handle the DNGs compared to LR.

This is interesting so if this is accurate then what we have is a tiff file with a DNG extension?

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Denis de Gannes

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Strelov Forum Member • Posts: 78
Re: Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

Shawn67 wrote:

Strelov wrote:

Denis de Gannes wrote:

Shawn67 wrote:

Not the SD but I do all my DP1 Quattro files in DNG with LR6. I adjust WB if needed and can change the color mode using the Profile setting in camera calibration. Works great.

I usually put the files through DNG Creator first to lossly compress them as it cuts the file size way down.

Shawn

So I just wish to clarify the problem. Lightroom does not have support for the Sigma SD Quattro camera model. However the camera can write raw DNG files and Lightroom Classic can import the DNG file but the rendition by Adobe shows a significant shift to the WB and colors in the rendition compared to the Camera rendition. So do any users of this specific model experience if they create DNG files in Camera?

I use X3F RAW which is the proper RAW. DNG is cooked because of the 3 layer design of the camera, meaning you don't have the same latitude in WB etc...

Try the DNGs with Darkroom or rawstudio and see how they handle the DNGs compared to LR.

I doubt there is much difference in WB latitude between the RAW and linear DNG. It is not cooked into the DNG, just the 3 layers of data are built into the DNG.

Shawn

Well to make the DNG they have to generate blue, green and red layer. So some cooking is needed, but perhaps there is enough latitude. Anyway try the other software and see if that is better. I would not be surprised

Strelov Forum Member • Posts: 78
Re: Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

Denis de Gannes wrote:

Strelov wrote:

Denis de Gannes wrote:

Shawn67 wrote:

Not the SD but I do all my DP1 Quattro files in DNG with LR6. I adjust WB if needed and can change the color mode using the Profile setting in camera calibration. Works great.

I usually put the files through DNG Creator first to lossly compress them as it cuts the file size way down.

Shawn

So I just wish to clarify the problem. Lightroom does not have support for the Sigma SD Quattro camera model. However the camera can write raw DNG files and Lightroom Classic can import the DNG file but the rendition by Adobe shows a significant shift to the WB and colors in the rendition compared to the Camera rendition. So do any users of this specific model experience if they create DNG files in Camera?

I use X3F RAW which is the proper RAW. DNG is cooked because of the 3 layer design of the camera, meaning you don't have the same latitude in WB etc...

Try the DNGs with Darkroom or rawstudio and see how they handle the DNGs compared to LR.

This is interesting so if this is accurate then what we have is a tiff file with a DNG extension?

That is my understanding, but Roland knows this stuff as they made this conversion first.

Myon Regular Member • Posts: 198
I am the guy Denis wrote about

Hi, I am digitizing 6x12cm slides with the SD Quattro shooting DNGs with a 3000K light source, so I set the WB manually.

When I import the DNG file into LR with embedded previews on, the embedded preview has correct colors, once LR previews are generated, I get ugly greens and the WB shifts to 2400K or so. It helps setting it back to 3000K but the colors don't look nice and they are not correct.

Shooting X3Fs with the same WB I get insanely accurate colors. Since yesterday I export them from Sigma PhotoPro to TIFFs and import them into LR.

Check for yourself, this is part of a panoramic slide, the light is dull, but what u get in the embedded preview is accurate.

Sidenote:

If u shoot DNGs with the Quattro, which I used to and now I don't, don't shrink them with Adobe DNG converter, blotching artifacts appear, even if u dont stretch the files.

Greetings

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Myon

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tagscuderia
tagscuderia Senior Member • Posts: 1,695
Re: Problem with rendering, SD Quattro RAW DNG files in Lightroom Classic?

Denis de Gannes wrote:

This is interesting so if this is accurate then what we have is a tiff file with a DNG extension?

No because Quattro OOC DNGs are 100% scene referred (thus can legitimately be considered RAW); the DCP/metadata contains the colour matrices for White Balance and colour mode, a cLUT and the tone curve. The photo data is stored in RGB space with linear gamma, white and black points have been balanced and clipped and it has been denoised.

It's a good bodge, but a bodge all the same.

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Shawn67 Senior Member • Posts: 2,283
Re: I am the guy Denis wrote about
2

Check your Adobe DNG Converter settings to make sure you are using lossless compression. Lossless means the resulting data is identical to what you start with. If you are getting blotches you are either reducing the bit depth or using lossy compression or maybe removing metadata for corrections.

Tried your DNG in LR. It does look awful with the as shot white balance. Clicked Auto and it looks fine.

Shawn

Myon Regular Member • Posts: 198
Re: I am the guy Denis wrote about

Thank you for your time and comment,

this is a screenshot from the embedded preview and these are/should be the correct colors. That's what one also gets when shooting X3Fs.

The DNG is useless (try matching it with the embedded preview colors...), at least when the WB is set manually to 3000K for a dead on 3000K light source.

One could try other WB values matching other light temperature sources (for example digitizing slides with a 5000K or 6000K lamp), but I don't have the time to do this, as I need to move forward with my project. I have switched to X3Fs and export to TIFFs, not only for slide copying but generally when using the SDQ, which is an insanely great camera if used properly.

...and one more thing:
the Sigma DNG firmware statement states that the camera supports now Lightroom - and not vice versa! Which means Sigma provides a DNG with an embedded profile (this was the idea behind DNGs in the first place, to have an embedded profile).

Then Adobe/CaptureOne shoot some images to create a profile neglecting the embedded one, also neglect profiling low Kelvin and we land on a situation like this.

Even if color management is subjective, why on earth does LR shift the WB to a value of 2400K, even before hitting the Auto adjustments button, as Shawn did??

Greetings

Shawn67 wrote:

Check your Adobe DNG Converter settings to make sure you are using lossless compression. Lossless means the resulting data is identical to what you start with. If you are getting blotches you are either reducing the bit depth or using lossy compression or maybe removing metadata for corrections.

Tried your DNG in LR. It does look awful with the as shot white balance. Clicked Auto and it looks fine.

Shawn

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Myon

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