16mp vs 20mp, AA filter comp

Curious if anyone could comment on how the image quality compares between a few generations of cameras. I have a GX7, which I still really like. I've been sort of eyeing getting a cheap G85, which I believe has the same sensor as my GX7 but doesn't have the AA filter, has a new shutter, etc. Then there's the 20mp sensors of the GX9, G95, etc.

My question is: if I were to grab a G85, would I notice an image quality bump? Or is it closer in quality to my GX7 and the bigger bump would be going to the latest 20mp ones? Framed another way, is the G85 closer in image quality to a GX7 or a GX9?

Although I love the gx7, even using pro lenses it does not produce 'really' sharp images. But on getting a 20mp GX8. I was staggered by the upgrade in image quality.

I don't own any other 16mp cams so can't comment on them.

Adrian
http://www.artfotografia.co.uk/

It seems that in terms of sharpness, 16Mp sensor without AA-filter is close to a 20Mp sensor with AA-filter, and 20Mp sensor without AA-filter is close to a 24Mp sensor with AA filter (not existing in µ4/3 world today). Moving from 16Mp to "20Mp"is not a big difference, but the change 16Mp to "24Mp" might be worth it.

G85 is a great camera.

GX7 was my main camera for a few years, in between my wife upgraded hers with GX85. I also moved to G85 last year.

While I looked at the first few testing batches from GX85, I was amused by the sharper SOOC jpg than what I used to expect from GX7. Panny claimed around 10% sharper due to no AA filter, IMHO the extra sharpness should be more observable than 10%. And the improved jpg engine indeed should help a better SOOC output.

The new m-shutter (G85 has EFCS as extra to GX85) helps to reduce shutter shock but on certain SS prone lenses like 14~140, e-shutter is the best solution on GX85 (or also the EFCS on G85).

Beside the new m-shutter, sharper SOOC, GX85 and G85 could deliver 1.5 stop higher usable ISO over GX7, plus the 5-axis IBIS & DUAL IS (DUAL IS 2 on G85), it has more advantage on low light handheld shooting.

Then the zebra for easy ETTR setting, the 4K video and very interesting 4K photo, 3 more bracketing, the introduction of Dial Operation Switch allowing the dual dials to control extra 2 features temporarily...

I can say GX85 is a major upgrade to GX7 for my usage. The G85 has a few more features like AF sensitivity adjustment, mic in port, longer battery life, and most importantly above all, a polarized glasses friendly OLED EVF/LCD...

I know GX9 has more pixel count, also a very useful My Menu, or the Live composite of G95... Their owners also warranted a further improving jpg engine...

So, if budget rules, GX85 and G85 are the most economy  solution for a quite substantial upgrade from GX7, very equivalent to the upgrade from GX1 to GX7. If money is not a matter, of course GX9 and G95 are the best.

My 2 cents.

I have had G80, GX85, GX9 and GX90 and the 20mp models definitely have the edge. Sold the GX85, but still own the other three, not that much difference in image quality.  The newer 20mp cameras also have nicer looking jpegs, must be the newer processor

Adrian Harris wrote:

Although I love the gx7, even using pro lenses it does not produce 'really' sharp images. But on getting a 20mp GX8. I was staggered by the upgrade in image quality.

to get really sharp images from the GX7 (had one for ages) you need E-Shutter more than the GX8 and in the GX7 E-Shutter drops to 10 bit and increased noise .....

The GX8 fixed that - 12 bit with no penalty and the Sony made 20Mp sensor has better colour depth , cleaner skies and more DR due to the true-iSO100 business . I`d say yes, the 20Mp sensor cams are a big IQ upgrade for many reasons...... and the GX8 has the perfect EVF IMO too , it`s like a Sony A7R-II one but a bit smaller with none of the optical issues the G9 has and better contrast than the LCDs in the Oly EM1 series

The GX8 with its AA filter produces a more vibrant image compared to the GX80 and G80, which have no AA filter. The GX80 and G80 look a bit flatter and have less punch.
The G90 without the AA filter is more vibrant than the GX8 with its AA filter.
I tend to use the GX8 when doing events photography because the lack of AA filter can produce moire patterns on clothing under certain conditions.  All the above info was gathered by me after using two cameras at a time for shooting the same scenes on holiday, events, urban walk about etc.

Adrian Harris wrote:

Although I love the gx7, even using pro lenses it does not produce 'really' sharp images. But on getting a 20mp GX8. I was staggered by the upgrade in image quality.

Yes! The GX8 has an AA filter, I think.

I wonder does the lack of an AA filter really improve image quality? In what way?

Does it really matter, or is it a geeky gearhead thing?

I don't own any other 16mp cams so can't comment on them.

I still have a GH2 and GX1, but haven’t used either in ages, so can’t really comment, either.

Yes! The GX8 has an AA filter, I think.

it does and its rather noticable - IN RAW that is ......... the JPG engine in the thing is so damn crude you`d not tell the sharpness difference between an Oly 14-42 and the 12-35 F2.8

I wonder does the lack of an AA filter really improve image quality? In what way?

IN RAW all your lenses are sharper on bodies without one, it `s like moving up a step in lens quality sharpness wisel, you get to crop deeper .. the GX8`s is stronger than the one on the G5, GX7, and the EM1 Mk1 for instance and almost negates the 4Mp upgrade (though the GX8s sensor is more than worth the upgrade over the 16Mp ones in other respects such as colour depth, dynamic range and true ISO100 in the case of the GX8 ..

I`m thinking of getting a mint boxed BLACK GX8 and having the AA filter replaced with a plain UV block by those companies who do IR conversions , I really like this camera far more than any of the later GX cams (GX80, "GX9", GX7 Mk2 etc ) which to me are closer to what a larger GM series would be

AdamT wrote:

Adrian Harris wrote:

Although I love the gx7, even using pro lenses it does not produce 'really' sharp images. But on getting a 20mp GX8. I was staggered by the upgrade in image quality.

to get really sharp images from the GX7 (had one for ages) you need E-Shutter more than the GX8 and in the GX7 E-Shutter drops to 10 bit and increased noise .....

GX7 uses a 12 bits e-shutter...

http://m43photo.blogspot.com/2014/05/worse-image-quality-with-e-shutter.html

The GX8 fixed that - 12 bit with no penalty and the Sony made 20Mp sensor has better colour depth , cleaner skies and more DR due to the true-iSO100 business . I`d say yes, the 20Mp sensor cams are a big IQ upgrade for many reasons...... and the GX8 has the perfect EVF IMO too , it`s like a Sony A7R-II one but a bit smaller with none of the optical issues the G9 has and better contrast than the LCDs in the Oly EM1 series

jeffharris wrote:

Adrian Harris wrote:

Although I love the gx7, even using pro lenses it does not produce 'really' sharp images. But on getting a 20mp GX8. I was staggered by the upgrade in image quality.

Yes! The GX8 has an AA filter, I think.

I wonder does the lack of an AA filter really improve image quality? In what way?

Sharper SOOC image.

Does it really matter, or is it a geeky gearhead thing?

No, the increased sharpness is very observable (GX7 vs GX85/G85).

But on some example there might be a higher chance to show moire, but mostly could be found on higher than 1:1 pixel peeping.

I don't own any other 16mp cams so can't comment on them.

I still have a GH2 and GX1, but haven’t used either in ages, so can’t really comment, either.

to get really sharp images from the GX7 (had one for ages) you need E-Shutter more than the GX8 and in the GX7 E-Shutter drops to 10 bit and increased noise .....

GX7 uses a 12 bits e-shu

Ahh right - thanks -  Stand corrccted (i`ts been a few years since I had the camera - had a GM5 and GX80 inbetween)

Sranang Boi wrote:

The GX8 with its AA filter produces a more vibrant image compared to the GX80 and G80, which have no AA filter. The GX80 and G80 look a bit flatter and have less punch.
The G90 without the AA filter is more vibrant than the GX8 with its AA filter.
I tend to use the GX8 when doing events photography because the lack of AA filter can produce moire patterns on clothing under certain conditions. All the above info was gathered by me after using two cameras at a time for shooting the same scenes on holiday, events, urban walk about etc.

You seem to be describing the colors and contrast, which is interesting. What about sharpness and level of detail? You've got me re-interested in the GX8 vs the G80/85. This was actually at the heart of my original question of whether the more important jump from my GX7 would be getting a 16mp cam with no AA or a 20mp cam (in this case, with one).

I know that ideally I'd just get one of the most recent 20mp cams with no AA filter but aside from the GX9, they're all more than I want to spend right now. I also can't imagine getting another cam with that viewfinder and  what would seem to be worse handling so many years later.

dmokn wrote:

Sranang Boi wrote:

The GX8 with its AA filter produces a more vibrant image compared to the GX80 and G80, which have no AA filter. The GX80 and G80 look a bit flatter and have less punch.
The G90 without the AA filter is more vibrant than the GX8 with its AA filter.
I tend to use the GX8 when doing events photography because the lack of AA filter can produce moire patterns on clothing under certain conditions. All the above info was gathered by me after using two cameras at a time for shooting the same scenes on holiday, events, urban walk about etc.

You seem to be describing the colors and contrast, which is interesting. What about sharpness and level of detail? You've got me re-interested in the GX8 vs the G80/85.

The GX8 and 20MP sensor DOES have more detail. And yes, the colors and contrast are better. Even the image noise has a nice analogue character. Sharpness has more to do with the lens than the sensor.

This was actually at the heart of my original question of whether the more important jump from my GX7 would be getting a 16mp cam with no AA or a 20mp cam (in this case, with one).

I know that ideally I'd just get one of the most recent 20mp cams with no AA filter but aside from the GX9, they're all more than I want to spend right now. I also can't imagine getting another cam with that viewfinder and what would seem to be worse handling so many years later.

Yes, the GX85 and GX9 have poorer handling than the GX7. The GX7's grip is very nice.

As far as contrast and details are concerned, when I use any of my sharper lenses like the PL15mm f1.7 or the PL 35-100mm f2.8 the GX8 pictures are far clearer. I also get better results in post processing when trying to push shadows and highlights. If you find one at a good price it is worth every penny.

AdamT wrote:

Yes! The GX8 has an AA filter, I think.

it does and its rather noticable - IN RAW that is ......... the JPG engine in the thing is so damn crude you`d not tell the sharpness difference between an Oly 14-42 and the 12-35 F2.8

I wonder does the lack of an AA filter really improve image quality? In what way?

IN RAW all your lenses are sharper on bodies without one, it `s like moving up a step in lens quality sharpness wisel, you get to crop deeper .. the GX8`s is stronger than the one on the G5, GX7, and the EM1 Mk1 for instance and almost negates the 4Mp upgrade (though the GX8s sensor is more than worth the upgrade over the 16Mp ones in other respects such as colour depth, dynamic range and true ISO100 in the case of the GX8 ..

Yeah, there isn't much difference in detail between GX8 photos and G80 16mp w/o AA.

I`m thinking of getting a mint boxed BLACK GX8 and having the AA filter replaced with a plain UV block by those companies who do IR conversions , I really like this camera far more than any of the later GX cams (GX80, "GX9", GX7 Mk2 etc ) which to me are closer to what a larger GM series would be

Please let me know if you find a company to do that, or if it will work.  I don't really appreciate having an AA filter in my GX8.  Moiré is maybe an issue in every 500th shot, sharpness is good to have in nearly every shot.  If you find a mint black GX8 on Ebay, you may have to fend off another bidder

This thread had prompted me to see whether could I find something to compare the sharpness of SOOC output from sensor has and without AA filter.

I have looked into my old photos from GX7 and GX85 for a more (not very since not under control testing) rational comparison. Since My wife shot with GX85 and I used GX7, we had not many shots from both cameras which were under similar framing and at similar time (similar exposure).

The followings are SOOC jpgs, both under vivid photo style (so higher contrast, higher saturation and sharper than other photo styles), shooting at similar time and place. They were also shot using e-shutter so shutter shock is 100% eliminated.

These might not be the best since she used 14 and I used 12, also 12-35 f/2.8 mk-I on my GX7 is marginally more contrast and sharper than her 14-140 f/3.5 mk-I on her GX85 (the difference is minimal). They are not for contest of any kind, just wishing we can find the difference between the 2 models because of the AA filter as well as improved jpg engine (better look at their original).

GX7

GX85

Cropped the aboves into 720 x 720 and lined up for comparison:

GX7 on the left vs GX85 on the right. The lower section has been brightened in PP for better shadow viewing

I guess if the above were shot by the same lens, difference could be spotted a little easier.

Of course, the above would only be interest to those who care the exact quality of our gear can deliver. The output from GX7 alone has no problem at all.

Finally the above would be of little meaning to RAW shooter since sharpening, contrast, WB, exposure etc would (could) be fine tune or applied during RAW conversion.