Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
viska Regular Member • Posts: 396
Re: Indeed...Definately not my world.
1

Samsung supported their system until 2017/8,the most recent body NX500 came in 2015.

They were the "smartest" camera company,they read the market then put their research and development people into an expanding camera division SMARTphones.95% of photos taken are with those devices.

Their compacts were good and their ILCs were great,Fuji & Sony have only just gone past the NXs.

Pentax M/L is a blip on the radar,Ricoh will continue with Dslr in the short term but how short?I hope the next body is worth the wait?

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 11,743
Re: Indeed...Definately not my world.

viska wrote:

Samsung supported their system until 2017/8,the most recent body NX500 came in 2015.

February 2015. That's when the last Samsung camera was released.

There is no supporting the system after that date. There is only death.

They were the "smartest" camera company,they read the market then put their research and development people into an expanding camera division SMARTphones.95% of photos taken are with those devices.

So they would've been "smart" as well with Pentax, don't you think?

Which is my point: we should not assume they would have acted completely different if they somehow acquired Pentax.

Their compacts were good and their ILCs were great,Fuji & Sony have only just gone past the NXs.

Pentax M/L is a blip on the radar,Ricoh will continue with Dslr in the short term but how short?I hope the next body is worth the wait?

It should be worth the wait, indeed. Now, that depends on what you're waiting for... hopefully a Pentax camera

Alex

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viska Regular Member • Posts: 396
Re: Indeed...Definately not my world.
1

February 2015. That's when the last Samsung camera was released.
There is no supporting the system after that date.

Oh yes there was, I do recall updating firmware.

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 11,743
Re: Indeed...Definately not my world.

viska wrote:

February 2015. That's when the last Samsung camera was released.
There is no supporting the system after that date.

Oh yes there was, I do recall updating firmware.

OK... if that's good enough to be called supporting a system... then yes, they updated the firmware of a discontinued product.

Alex

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viska Regular Member • Posts: 396
Re: Indeed...Definately not my world.
2

Yes, like the 645z and Q systems.

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 11,743
Re: Indeed...Definately not my world.

viska wrote:

Yes, like the 645z and Q systems.

What's your point? We were discussing about Samsung (how they weren't an option to acquire and purchase Pentax).

Alex

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Luis Fonseca Regular Member • Posts: 418
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.

ozdean wrote:

Because of shorter flange distance new mirrorless cameras have to have larger lenses so there is no advantage in this regard.

Not really. The Canon RF 24-105 f/4 is almost 1 centimeter smaller (not much but smaller) and almost 100g lighter than the EF 24-105mm.

And Leica M lenses, that can be easilly adapted, are usually very small. Just look how small is the 7artisans 35mm f/2.

Regards,

Luis

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 11,743
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.

Luis Fonseca wrote:

ozdean wrote:

Because of shorter flange distance new mirrorless cameras have to have larger lenses so there is no advantage in this regard.

Not really. The Canon RF 24-105 f/4 is almost 1 centimeter smaller (not much but smaller) and almost 100g lighter than the EF 24-105mm.

And Leica M lenses, that can be easilly adapted, are usually very small. Just look how small is the 7artisans 35mm f/2.

But Leica SL lenses are huge.

I guess there's no hard rule either way?

Alex

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brett nz
brett nz Contributing Member • Posts: 576
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.

The main benefits of mirrorless can be incorporated into the slr - the FF mirrorless are not that much lighter, certainly not their lenses - yes a mirrorless body can be smaller but a camera needs to be a certain size for me to hold nicely anyway - thats how I chose Pentax originally.

I am wanting a new K1 - fast and large buffer so timelapse can shoot at 2sec intervals instead of lagging every doz frames as it does now - improved af and yes I want much improved video. Thats all I need and it doesnt need to be mirrorless for that.

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Luis Fonseca Regular Member • Posts: 418
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.

Alex Sarbu wrote:

But Leica SL lenses are huge.

Indeed.

I guess there's no hard rule either way?

Alex

There is only one rule: it's a matter of compromise in the lens design.

Just look at FA 50 f/1.4 and DFA* 50 f/1.4.

But if the flange distance is smaller you can always use the SLR lens design. The other way around is impossible.

I'm using my Pentax mount lenses with the small Canon RP. I "just" lost the IBIS (which is a good thing because it keeps me away from buying more lenses) and AF although focus peaking makes focusing very easy with the viewfinder.

Luis

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Luis Fonseca Regular Member • Posts: 418
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.

brett nz wrote:

The main benefits of mirrorless can be incorporated into the slr -

Most of them yes. Those related to a small flange distance can't.

the FF mirrorless are not that much lighter, certainly not their lenses -

It's a matter of what the manufacturer chooses. The main benefict in lens design should be with focal lenghts between 20mm (typical flange distance on mirroless) and 40mm (on SLR). Just look at the Canon EF-M 22mm f/2 for example.

yes a mirrorless body can be smaller but a camera needs to be a certain size for me to hold nicely anyway - thats how I chose Pentax originally.

There is no need for extra size in the lens mount. Usually one doen't hold the camera there. And a mirrorless can be huge like the Panasonic that is even larger than the K-1.

I am wanting a new K1 - fast and large buffer so timelapse can shoot at 2sec intervals instead of lagging every doz frames as it does now - improved af and yes I want much improved video. Thats all I need and it doesnt need to be mirrorless for that.

And I wanted small Pentax mirroless (Canon RP/Sony a7 sized) with PK to mirrorless  adapter that works flawlessly and a DFA* 24-105 f/4.

Luis

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hikerdoc Senior Member • Posts: 2,752
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.
4

My Z7 body is over 300g lighter than my D850 body, about a cm narrower and not as deep. The 24-70S f/2.8 lens is about 200g lighter and over 2.5 cm shorter than the DSLR 24-70E in Nikon land. I guess it depends on your definition of not that much smaller and lighter, but that 500g and size difference is very noticeable to me. But, on the other hand, the  70-200 is actually slightly longer and heavier for the Z, but not enough to negate the significant difference in the bodies.

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brett nz
brett nz Contributing Member • Posts: 576
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.

Hi Luis,

Is the smaller flange and the larger lens mount diameter mirrorless design allows a definitive improvement? I suppose if Nikon and Canon are saying yes then it is. I understand it allows for wider apertures but I cant understand why Pentax would not have gone that direction (at least now) if it were as definitive as it seems.

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viska Regular Member • Posts: 396
Re: Indeed...Definately not my world.
2

Well,Samsung has never officially been discontinued,it's in the same boat as the 2 Pentax formats!

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 11,743
Re: Indeed...Definately not my world.

viska wrote:

Well,Samsung has never officially been discontinued,it's in the same boat as the 2 Pentax formats!

Nonsense. Samsung closed down their camera division.

Alex

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"When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say." - George R.R. Martin, A Clash of Kings

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Luis Fonseca Regular Member • Posts: 418
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.

brett nz wrote:

Hi Luis,

Is the smaller flange and the larger lens mount diameter mirrorless design allows a definitive improvement? I suppose if Nikon and Canon are saying yes then it is.

It's not what anyone says. To make a wide lens with a longer flange distance you need a retrofocus design instead of a simpler design like Tessar or Sonnar.
Just compare the Canon RF 35mm with the two Pentax 35mm. With the same overall size (and jus 100g more) Canon (someone not really famous for small lenses) made a mixture of the two Pentax lenses. The Canon is a FF almost macro fast(er) lens and with AF motor and optical stabilization.

But is this a significant advantage? Most of the time it isn't.

I understand it allows for wider apertures but I cant understand why Pentax would not have gone that direction (at least now) if it were as definitive as it seems.

If I was going to take a bet it would be on lack of resourses. Pentax/Ricoh market share is small so it would take a long time to have a return on investment.

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brett nz
brett nz Contributing Member • Posts: 576
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.

Luis Fonseca wrote:

brett nz wrote:

Hi Luis,

I understand it allows for wider apertures but I cant understand why Pentax would not have gone that direction (at least now) if it were as definitive as it seems.

If I was going to take a bet it would be on lack of resourses. Pentax/Ricoh market share is small so it would take a long time to have a return on investment.

Their market share in consumer photographic equipment is small but Ricoh has huge resources and success industrially. If it were obvious (scientifically) that a wider lens mount and smaller flange distance are of that much greater advantage they would go there imo.

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Maxxum Fan Regular Member • Posts: 452
Re: Indeed...Definately not my world.

Alex Sarbu wrote:

xmeda wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

xmeda wrote:

K0d wrote:

With every mirrorless Pentax thread the desire for nearly all features were met in this camera with a dedicated K mount adapter with AF 4K etc.

Samsung NX1 Review: Digital Photography Review

So how how many of you purchased one?

Cheers Pierre

If only Samsung bought Pentax 10 years ago...

then Pentax would be dead by now, killed when Samsung closed their camera division.

Alex

Definitely no.

Definitely no? Based on what?

Samsung NX had completely new mount. That was the problem. They were not pursuing the chance enough and without stable customer base it was problematic.

So in your opinion what didn't happen with the NX would've definitely happen with K-mount? No offense, but this sounds like wishful thinking.

But using K mount cameras - that would be much more successful. They were selling Pentax clones and modified cameras + lenses for several years. Customer base was there around 2008-2010 and was plentiful. Also there were many lenses available and already developed system that only needed new sensors and R&D investments.

If Pentax only needed new sensors and R&D investments, then they must be now in a great position...

Don't misunderstand, a willing owner - instead of Hoya, someone who would care about the Imaging division rather than seeing it as extra luggage to be thrown away at the first opportunity - would've most likely helped. Perhaps a lot.

And I'm talking about then, when the market was growing and DSLRs not yet mature, and Pentax' position stronger.

But...

Unfortunately Samsung decided to drop any connections to K mount completely and started new system from scratch. That alone was raised finger for all those previous Samsung customers already invested in Kmount.

The facts we know about Samsung:

- they didn't do much "collaborating" with Pentax. In retrospective, their intention was never to co-develop K-mount with Pentax.

- they attempted the NX and NX-mini lines instead. Partnering with Pentax was not considered.

- they completely gave up.

Which of those makes you think Samsung could've been interested in getting Pentax (a Pentax that was actually for sale after 2008), and invest in K-mount instead of their NX, and not give up?

Your Samsung is a direct opposite of the real one.

Alex

There is a reason why Samsung left the camera market, because there isn't much of one left. Whilst I think it was a waste of time for their NX users and unfortunate - reality bites on 2020, not many people are buying new camera gear. And it's only going to get worse at a much faster pace.

Mix the phones for most and abundance of cheap s/h gear, there is very little reason to buy new expensive cameras/lenses, even for those who are deeply into photography.

justmeMN Veteran Member • Posts: 9,650
The trend towards mirrorless
1

Mark Ransom wrote: But I get a little tired of the assumption that DSLRs are on the endangered species list.

The trend is pretty clear.

Graphic created by CIPA

Maxxum Fan Regular Member • Posts: 452
Re: The trend towards mirrorless

justmeMN wrote:

Mark Ransom wrote: But I get a little tired of the assumption that DSLRs are on the endangered species list.

The trend is pretty clear.

Graphic created by CIPA

This is the trend

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/dw-202003_e.pdf

Mirrorless won't save them

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