Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.

Started 7 months ago | Discussions
(unknown member) Regular Member • Posts: 360
Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.

I would love for Pentax to compete against mirrorless cameras. There are talks about having a hybrid viewfinder.

What about an adjustable sensor-flange distance? Imagine a Pentax mirrorless camera with a PK mount but with a flange distance similar to Sony and Fuji but the sensor can be pulled back when SLR lenses are adapted?

The body will of course look a bit different but Pentax always has. I'd love for the K-mount to survive and this is the concept I cant think of.

What do you think of this idea? Any other ideas out there?

Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 11,748
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.
6

Murdoko wrote:

I would love for Pentax to compete against mirrorless cameras.

Why? (if not with their DSLR line)

There are talks about having a hybrid viewfinder.

All we have is a patent. It would help video, but I'm concerned about ruining the optical viewfinder for that...

What about an adjustable sensor-flange distance? Imagine a Pentax mirrorless camera with a PK mount but with a flange distance similar to Sony and Fuji but the sensor can be pulled back when SLR lenses are adapted?

Too complex. We're discussing this subject from time to time; the classic new-mount camera with an adapter makes much more sense. This way you'd get a non-compromised mirrorless with the ability to use existing SLR lenses, and no cost for those using only native ones.

But the adjustable flange distance... you'd get a mirrorless camera which is as bulky or even bulkier than a SLR, using a mount which has a too small diameter and quirks introduced decades ago.

The body will of course look a bit different but Pentax always has. I'd love for the K-mount to survive and this is the concept I cant think of.

The concept won't help Pentax K to survive. A short flange distance mount is not a K-mount... and K-mount makes little sense if it's not a SLR.

What do you think of this idea? Any other ideas out there?

Well, there will be the K-new (the APS-C flagship they're working on), and I'd like a "K-1 new" very much. Then, there are the new K-mount lenses. The problem is the slow execution, not the direction.

Alex

-- hide signature --

"When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say." - George R.R. Martin, A Clash of Kings

 Alex Sarbu's gear list:Alex Sarbu's gear list
Ricoh GR III Pentax K-5 IIs Pentax K-1 II Pentax smc DA 21mm F3.2 AL Limited Pentax smc DA 70mm F2.4 AL Limited +8 more
breeze_of_wind
breeze_of_wind Senior Member • Posts: 1,332
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.
4

We go around and around.  Mirrorless is one wave of the future.  Many have adopted this path, but not Pentax.  Until they say and then prove that this path makes sense for them, can we just assume that is not really worth our time pushing this path on Pentax.  Sorry!

So what do we have -- a superb K1.  It works great (and I mean really great) for all but those applications that involve considerable subject movement.  Look at work by our colleagues who do landscapes, relatively still animal and bird captures, portraits, and macro images.  If this was all there was, Pentax K1-II would be it!.

But many of us do both types of work and we are not happy.  Could there be an upgraded full full frame K1 that did both -- that would be great.  Will the new APSc release meet our needs.  I am betting on Pentax at this time.  Thus the K -mount stays and they round out there camera body options.  This keeps there installed base on board and if the new camera is a true gem opens up other marketing avenues.

One man's opinion.

John

 breeze_of_wind's gear list:breeze_of_wind's gear list
Pentax K20D Pentax K-5 Pentax K-3 Pentax K-1 II Pentax smc DA* 16-50mm F2.8 ED AL (IF) SDM +12 more
tex Veteran Member • Posts: 8,337
"...in the mirrorless world." Hmmmmm
4

I guess I'm not as sure of that as you are.  I don't think it's a mirrorless world.

-- hide signature --

tex_andrews, Andrews Fine Arts LLC, co-founder and webmaster of The LightZone Project, an all-volunteer group providing the free and open source LightZone photo editing software.
"Photography is the product of complete alienation" Marcel Proust
"I would like to see photography make people despise painting until something else will make photography unbearable." Marcel Duchamp

 tex's gear list:tex's gear list
Pentax 645Z Pentax K-1 Pentax K-1 II Pentax smc FA 31mm F1.8 AL Limited Pentax smc FA 77mm 1.8 Limited +30 more
robgendreau Veteran Member • Posts: 7,641
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.
3

Murdoko wrote:

I would love for Pentax to compete against mirrorless cameras. There are talks about having a hybrid viewfinder.

What about an adjustable sensor-flange distance? Imagine a Pentax mirrorless camera with a PK mount but with a flange distance similar to Sony and Fuji but the sensor can be pulled back when SLR lenses are adapted?

The body will of course look a bit different but Pentax always has. I'd love for the K-mount to survive and this is the concept I cant think of.

What do you think of this idea? Any other ideas out there?

If by "mirrorless" you mean smartphones, then yeah, it's their world.

If you are just referring to mirrorless ILCs, vs say DSLRs, then mirrorless still lag in total sales I think. And have maybe even lost ground at times: https://nofilmschool.com/digital-camera-market-sales-low

But mirrorless vs DSLR in such a shrinking market is kind of a deck chair vs folding chair argument on that well known sinking ship.

I'd think Pentax would want to keep the DSLR going to fill a niche (isn't it still kind of unique with IBIS, Astrotracer, etc?) just to sell lenses. I think they compete quite well; I owned a mirrorless and subsequently bought a K-1ii.

And Ricoh already has a few great mirrorless cameras: the GR, the Theta, and the WG. Not sure how they're doing relative to the Pentax DSLRs, but quite well regarded even in the smartphone age.

-- hide signature --

“Art is not what you see, but what you make others see.”
— Edgar Degas

KentG Veteran Member • Posts: 4,696
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.

I have found its just easier to invest in small set from another system to do the things Pentax does no do well. In spite of the fact that I can do that job with Pentax if needed. Simpler just to fudge it some so I have one Canon body and a few lenses like 300/2.8, 100-300/4, a couple of decent TCs and a few others thrown in just for giggles. Pentax is the only complete system I have with multiple bodies and a full coverage of lenses although there is a mix of APS-C and FF.

To me the K-mount makes no sense in mirrorless except as an adapter.

Kent Gittings

 KentG's gear list:KentG's gear list
Pentax K-5 IIs Pentax K-S1 Pentax K-1 Pentax smc D-FA 50mm F2.8 Macro Pentax FA 150-450mm F4.5-5.6 +3 more
ozdean
ozdean Forum Pro • Posts: 26,283
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.
2

Don't forget Pentax was the first to produce a ILMC in the K01 and it never took off and was ridiculed 10 years ago.

Because of shorter flange distance new mirrorless cameras have to have larger lenses so there is no advantage in this regard.

-- hide signature --

Regards Dean - Capturing Creation
N.B. All my Images are Protected by Copyright

 ozdean's gear list:ozdean's gear list
Pentax MX-1 Pentax K-5 IIs Pentax K-50 Pentax smc DA* 55mm F1.4 SDM Pentax smc DA 15mm F4 ED AL Limited +13 more
Pentax645 Contributing Member • Posts: 512
Indeed...Definately not my world.
4

But there will be yet another 149 replies to this post. Uugh.

tex wrote:

I guess I'm not as sure of that as you are. I don't think it's a mirrorless world.

 Pentax645's gear list:Pentax645's gear list
Pentax K10D Pentax K-1 Pentax smc DA 16-45mm F4 ED AL Pentax smc DA 12-24mm F4.0 ED AL (IF) Pentax smc D-FA 100mm F2.8 macro +5 more
K0d Regular Member • Posts: 184
Re: Indeed...Definately not my world.
3

With every mirrorless Pentax thread the desire for nearly all features were met in this camera with a dedicated K mount adapter with AF 4K etc.

Samsung NX1 Review: Digital Photography Review

So how how many of you purchased one?

Cheers Pierre

Mark Ransom
Mark Ransom Veteran Member • Posts: 7,385
What mirrorless world?
9

I understand there are lots of people who prefer mirrorless cameras.  But I get a little tired of the assumption that DSLRs are on the endangered species list.  I'm certainly not wasting any time speculating on something Pentax have stated very clearly they're not pursuing.

The Pentax engineers are very clever, and if they ever decide to go down this road I'm sure it will be better than any of us have dreamed up.

 Mark Ransom's gear list:Mark Ransom's gear list
Pentax K-7 Pentax K-01 Olympus E-M5 II Pentax smc DA 15mm F4 ED AL Limited Pentax smc DA 18-135mm F3.5-5.6ED AL [IF] DC WR +6 more
Mistral75
Mistral75 Contributing Member • Posts: 897
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.
2

ozdean wrote:

Don't forget Pentax was the first to produce a ILMC in the K01 and it never took off and was ridiculed 10 years ago.

(...)

Err... no.

The first mirrorless interchangeable lens camera was the Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1, announced in September 2008.

The Pentax K-01 was announced in February 2012, almost three and a half years later.

Between these two dates 32 mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras were announced, namely:

  • Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH1 (March 2009)
  • Olympus Pen E-P1 (June 2009)
  • Panasonic DMC-GF1 (September 2009)
  • Olympus Pen E-P2 (November 2009)
  • Ricoh GXR (does it count as MILC?) (November 2009)
  • Samsung NX10 (January 2010)
  • Olympus Pen E-PL1 (January 2010)
  • Panasonic Lumix DMC-G10 and DMC-G2 (March 2010)
  • Sony NEX-3 and NEX-5 (May 2010)
  • Samsung NX5 (June 2010)
  • Samsung NX100 (September 2010)
  • Panasonic DMC-GH2 (September 2010)
  • Panasonic DMC-GF2 (November 2010)
  • Olympus Pen E-PL1s (November 2010)
  • Samsung NX11 (December 2010)
  • Olympus Pen E-PL2 (January 2011)
  • Panasonic Lumix DMC-G3 (May 2011)
  • Sony NEX-C3 (June 2011)
  • Panasonic DMC-GF3 (June 2011)
  • Pentax Q (June 2011) (the first Pentax MILC actually)
  • Olympus Pen E-PM1 and Pen E-PL3 (June 2011)
  • Sony NEX-5N and NEX-7 (August 2011)
  • Samsung NX200 (September 2011)
  • Nikon 1 J1 and 1 V1 (September 2011)
  • Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX1 (November 2011)
  • Fujifilm X-Pro1 (January 2012)
  • Kodak Pixpro S-1 (January 2012)
Mr Garibaldi Contributing Member • Posts: 798
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.

I expect that for the future, Pentax means K mount. Ricoh, OTOH, is very well positioned to leverage the GR series as mirrorless.

If they do that, they might even be able to generate excitement, something that they have had problems with doing with the Pentax brand.

xmeda
xmeda Senior Member • Posts: 1,464
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.
4

They can always create mirror-less camera and adaptor that will work with K mount lenses. But as long as they keep making cameras with good enough parameters, I don't care that much if it is DSLR or MLC.
If you give me APS-C MLC with good enough EVF that is back-compatible with already existing lenses using adaptor, I'll be happy.
If they create good APS-C DSLR with good live-view options, it is good too.

But they are completely missing the point. They focused on 4% overcrowded FF DSLR market where is ZERO space for new contenders. They have very limited capacity to develop lenses, so they are just reusing overpriced Tamron zooms as a basis. And meanwhile 645 medium format is 5 years without anything new = dead. And APS-C is still totally neglected. Expensive 11-18/2.8 is nice, but for who? There is still no new advanced APS-C camera available. K70 is old now and even latest KP is now loosing ground. Not to mention lenses with horrible CA and dying SDM motors that had to be replaced years ago.
Fuji started two new systems from scratch and after few years they are now better option than Pentax system. It is hard to compete without new products..

-- hide signature --
 xmeda's gear list:xmeda's gear list
Casio QV-R40 Casio Exilim EX-Z110 Olympus XZ-1 Olympus Stylus 1s Pentax K20D +31 more
xmeda
xmeda Senior Member • Posts: 1,464
Re: Indeed...Definately not my world.

K0d wrote:

With every mirrorless Pentax thread the desire for nearly all features were met in this camera with a dedicated K mount adapter with AF 4K etc.

Samsung NX1 Review: Digital Photography Review

So how how many of you purchased one?

Cheers Pierre

If only Samsung bought Pentax 10 years ago...  this thing is brutal although 5 years old now. It only has one issue - missing IBIS.

But sensor and AF were generation ahead.

Like Samsung K20D sensor in early 2008..

-- hide signature --
 xmeda's gear list:xmeda's gear list
Casio QV-R40 Casio Exilim EX-Z110 Olympus XZ-1 Olympus Stylus 1s Pentax K20D +31 more
zakaria
zakaria Veteran Member • Posts: 5,310
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.

Even if pentax goes to the mirrorless who will buy a Pentax camera and leave, for example, Sony or Canon, or even Nikon who preceded it temporarily in this field?  these people in this forum only who will buy pentax gear.

-- hide signature --

pentaxian .

 zakaria's gear list:zakaria's gear list
Nikon D750 Fujifilm X-H1 Pentax K-1 II Pentax smc FA 31mm F1.8 AL Limited HD Pentax DA 21mm F3.2 AL Limited +7 more
Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 11,748
Re: Indeed...Definately not my world.
3

xmeda wrote:

K0d wrote:

With every mirrorless Pentax thread the desire for nearly all features were met in this camera with a dedicated K mount adapter with AF 4K etc.

Samsung NX1 Review: Digital Photography Review

So how how many of you purchased one?

Cheers Pierre

If only Samsung bought Pentax 10 years ago...

then Pentax would be dead by now, killed when Samsung closed their camera division.

Alex

-- hide signature --

"When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say." - George R.R. Martin, A Clash of Kings

 Alex Sarbu's gear list:Alex Sarbu's gear list
Ricoh GR III Pentax K-5 IIs Pentax K-1 II Pentax smc DA 21mm F3.2 AL Limited Pentax smc DA 70mm F2.4 AL Limited +8 more
Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 11,748
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.
1

xmeda wrote:

But they are completely missing the point.

Repeating doesn't make it true.

They focused on 4% overcrowded FF DSLR market

There are only 2 competitors, and the 4% appears to be made up and too low.

Besides, everyone who had that option prioritized FF, because that works right now. As for APS-C... the information presented here isn't encouraging:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/137-photographic-industry-professionals/406571-lens-sales-apsc-lenses-declining-fast.html

where is ZERO space for new contenders.

Pentax proved otherwise.

They have very limited capacity to develop lenses,

That is true (but it's the same for both APS-C and FF lenses)

so they are just reusing overpriced Tamron zooms as a basis

That is false. There are 7 new generation D FA lenses - obviously there are more FF lenses but let's count only those; 3 are Tamron-based zooms and 4 are Pentax lenses (1 prime and 3 zooms). "Just reusing" is misinformation.

The next FF lens will also be a Pentax - the D FA* 85mm f/1.4.

. And meanwhile 645 medium format is 5 years without anything new = dead.

Maybe.

And APS-C is still totally neglected. Expensive 11-18/2.8 is nice, but for who?

Again, misinformation. So, it's neglected if we ignore a recent high-end APS-C? What's next, will you ask us to ignore the K-new, too?

There is still no new advanced APS-C camera available.

Of course you will. Such a camera is in advanced development.

Fuji started two new systems from scratch and after few years they are now better option than Pentax system.

Then, jump ship. Nobody will blame you for going with an option better for you.

Me? Fujifilm has no FF...

Alex

-- hide signature --

"When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say." - George R.R. Martin, A Clash of Kings

 Alex Sarbu's gear list:Alex Sarbu's gear list
Ricoh GR III Pentax K-5 IIs Pentax K-1 II Pentax smc DA 21mm F3.2 AL Limited Pentax smc DA 70mm F2.4 AL Limited +8 more
bilybianca Contributing Member • Posts: 556
Re: Survival of the K-mount in the mirrorless world.
1

It's just so simple.

IF you really want a camera with the letters PENTAX on the front, there are some mighty fine DSLRs to choose from. APS-C or "full frame". If you're prepared to go the second hand route, there are numerous models out there. And you can even find a mirrorless, the K-01.

IF you really want a mirrorless, there are so many brands to choose from. And if you want to use your mighty fine legacy k-mount lenses? No problem, there are adaptors!

IF you have a very good business plan, involving the letters PENTAX, get in touch with the RICOH management. They might be interested.

I'm not.

Kjell

 bilybianca's gear list:bilybianca's gear list
Pentax *ist DS Pentax K-5 Pentax K-1 Pentax smc FA 50mm F1.4 Pentax smc DA 16-45mm F4 ED AL +24 more
xmeda
xmeda Senior Member • Posts: 1,464
Re: Indeed...Definately not my world.

Alex Sarbu wrote:

xmeda wrote:

K0d wrote:

With every mirrorless Pentax thread the desire for nearly all features were met in this camera with a dedicated K mount adapter with AF 4K etc.

Samsung NX1 Review: Digital Photography Review

So how how many of you purchased one?

Cheers Pierre

If only Samsung bought Pentax 10 years ago...

then Pentax would be dead by now, killed when Samsung closed their camera division.

Alex

Definitely no. Samsung NX had completely new mount. That was the problem. They were not pursuing the chance enough and without stable customer base it was problematic.

But using K mount cameras - that would be much more successful. They were selling Pentax clones and modified cameras + lenses for several years. Customer base was there around 2008-2010 and was plentiful. Also there were many lenses available and already developed system that only needed new sensors and R&D investments.

Unfortunately Samsung decided to drop any connections to K mount completely and started new system from scratch. That alone was raised finger for all those previous Samsung customers already invested in Kmount.

-- hide signature --
 xmeda's gear list:xmeda's gear list
Casio QV-R40 Casio Exilim EX-Z110 Olympus XZ-1 Olympus Stylus 1s Pentax K20D +31 more
Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 11,748
Re: Indeed...Definately not my world.
1

xmeda wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

xmeda wrote:

K0d wrote:

With every mirrorless Pentax thread the desire for nearly all features were met in this camera with a dedicated K mount adapter with AF 4K etc.

Samsung NX1 Review: Digital Photography Review

So how how many of you purchased one?

Cheers Pierre

If only Samsung bought Pentax 10 years ago...

then Pentax would be dead by now, killed when Samsung closed their camera division.

Alex

Definitely no.

Definitely no? Based on what?

Samsung NX had completely new mount. That was the problem. They were not pursuing the chance enough and without stable customer base it was problematic.

So in your opinion what didn't happen with the NX would've definitely happen with K-mount? No offense, but this sounds like wishful thinking.

But using K mount cameras - that would be much more successful. They were selling Pentax clones and modified cameras + lenses for several years. Customer base was there around 2008-2010 and was plentiful. Also there were many lenses available and already developed system that only needed new sensors and R&D investments.

If Pentax only needed new sensors and R&D investments, then they must be now in a great position...

Don't misunderstand, a willing owner - instead of Hoya, someone who would care about the Imaging division rather than seeing it as extra luggage to be thrown away at the first opportunity - would've most likely helped. Perhaps a lot.

And I'm talking about then, when the market was growing and DSLRs not yet mature, and Pentax' position stronger.

But...

Unfortunately Samsung decided to drop any connections to K mount completely and started new system from scratch. That alone was raised finger for all those previous Samsung customers already invested in Kmount.

The facts we know about Samsung:

- they didn't do much "collaborating" with Pentax. In retrospective, their intention was never to co-develop K-mount with Pentax.

- they attempted the NX and NX-mini lines instead. Partnering with Pentax was not considered.

- they completely gave up.

Which of those makes you think Samsung could've been interested in getting Pentax (a Pentax that was actually for sale after 2008), and invest in K-mount instead of their NX, and not give up?

Your Samsung is a direct opposite of the real one.

Alex

-- hide signature --

"When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say." - George R.R. Martin, A Clash of Kings

 Alex Sarbu's gear list:Alex Sarbu's gear list
Ricoh GR III Pentax K-5 IIs Pentax K-1 II Pentax smc DA 21mm F3.2 AL Limited Pentax smc DA 70mm F2.4 AL Limited +8 more
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads