Looking for an ICC profile for Epson Premium Presentation Matte on SC-P800

Started 7 months ago | Questions
Charles2
Charles2 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,358
Re: So usually NOT fully color-managed

NAwlins Contrarian wrote: ... When you use printer manages colors, you're not using a fully color-manged workflow. ... even in the printer driver, you cannot choose an ICC profile.

Actually, you can choose the ICC profile with which the Printer Manages Color. Below is a screenshot of the driver dialog (accessed from within Picture Window Pro. Sorry PS folks, the universe is bigger than Adobe Inc.). Five "modes" are offered. You choose Off (No Color Adjustment) when your program manages color. You choose ICM when you want the printer to manage color using an ICC profile of your choice. You then go to the Advanced sub-dialog to choose which profile.

The price paid is that you don't get to choose Perceptual or Relative Colorimetric rendering intent, so indeed you give up that part of color management to the printer. Well, you have probably seen that the choice between the two often makes little or no difference, and with experience you can get a feel for when it may or may not make a difference -- how "extreme" are the colors in the particular image, etc.

NAwlins Contrarian Veteran Member • Posts: 5,297
Re: So usually NOT fully color-managed

NAwlins Contrarian wrote: ... When you use printer manages colors, you're not using a fully color-manged workflow. ... even in the printer driver, you cannot choose an ICC profile.

Actually, you can choose the ICC profile with which the Printer Manages Color. Below is a screenshot of the driver dialog (accessed from within Picture Window Pro. Sorry PS folks, the universe is bigger than Adobe Inc.). Five "modes" are offered. You choose Off (No Color Adjustment) when your program manages color. You choose ICM when you want the printer to manage color using an ICC profile of your choice. You then go to the Advanced sub-dialog to choose which profile.

The price paid is that you don't get to choose Perceptual or Relative Colorimetric rendering intent, so indeed you give up that part of color management to the printer.

Then Epson has added an option similar to what some Canon drivers have--although IIRC those at least let you choose a rendering intent. As you say, at that point using this Epson driver you're not fully color-managed because you can't choose a rendering intent. Also, it's not clear (to me at least) from Eric's screen captures, but it doesn't look like he was choosing ICM Mode, and was instead showing Media Type options (I see in the third capture Mode: Off (No Color Adjustment) and in the fourth capture Current Settings ... Color Adjustment: Epson Standard (sRGB)).

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OP Eric Stevens New Member • Posts: 12
Re: So usually NOT fully color-managed

NAwlins Contrarian wrote:

NAwlins Contrarian wrote: ... When you use printer manages colors, you're not using a fully color-manged workflow. ... even in the printer driver, you cannot choose an ICC profile.

Actually, you can choose the ICC profile with which the Printer Manages Color. Below is a screenshot of the driver dialog (accessed from within Picture Window Pro. Sorry PS folks, the universe is bigger than Adobe Inc.). Five "modes" are offered. You choose Off (No Color Adjustment) when your program manages color. You choose ICM when you want the printer to manage color using an ICC profile of your choice. You then go to the Advanced sub-dialog to choose which profile.

The price paid is that you don't get to choose Perceptual or Relative Colorimetric rendering intent, so indeed you give up that part of color management to the printer.

Then Epson has added an option similar to what some Canon drivers have--although IIRC those at least let you choose a rendering intent. As you say, at that point using this Epson driver you're not fully color-managed because you can't choose a rendering intent. Also, it's not clear (to me at least) from Eric's screen captures, but it doesn't look like he was choosing ICM Mode, and was instead showing Media Type options (I see in the third capture Mode: Off (No Color Adjustment) and in the fourth capture Current Settings ... Color Adjustment: Epson Standard (sRGB)).

I was trying to explain earlier confusion, not the full extent of how I manage colors. I don't do a great amount of printing and up to now I have mainly used Epson papers with Epson supplied profiles. I run a fully colour managed work flow with the exception that I cannot calibrate my printer. For a variety of reasons which I don't really want to go into I long ago decided against the use of ICM. I am fully satisfied that within the limitations of the paper and the ink,  the ability of my printer to match what I see on the screen is generally excellent.

And yes, I do use rendering intent which is usually set to Perceptual. Color Adjustment has to be set to something and if you look over my shoulder you will find that it is just as often set to AdobeRGB.

technoid Senior Member • Posts: 2,276
Re: So usually NOT fully color-managed

NAwlins Contrarian wrote:

Then Epson has added an option similar to what some Canon drivers have--although IIRC those at least let you choose a rendering intent. As you say, at that point using this Epson driver you're not fully color-managed because you can't choose a rendering intent. Also, it's not clear (to me at least) from Eric's screen captures, but it doesn't look like he was choosing ICM Mode, and was instead showing Media Type options (I see in the third capture Mode: Off (No Color Adjustment) and in the fourth capture Current Settings ... Color Adjustment: Epson Standard (sRGB)).

My Epson 9800 can print color managed images directly from the driver. I tested this some time ago on Windows and accurately printed images in ProPhoto RGB with Photoshop using "Printer Manages Color." It also allows selection of different intents, Perc., Rel., Sat., and Abs.  The only thing often used but missing is BPC.

OP Eric Stevens New Member • Posts: 12
Re: So usually NOT fully color-managed

NAwlins Contrarian wrote:

NAwlins Contrarian wrote: ... When you use printer manages colors, you're not using a fully color-manged workflow. ... even in the printer driver, you cannot choose an ICC profile.

Actually, you can choose the ICC profile with which the Printer Manages Color. Below is a screenshot of the driver dialog (accessed from within Picture Window Pro. Sorry PS folks, the universe is bigger than Adobe Inc.). Five "modes" are offered. You choose Off (No Color Adjustment) when your program manages color. You choose ICM when you want the printer to manage color using an ICC profile of your choice. You then go to the Advanced sub-dialog to choose which profile.

The price paid is that you don't get to choose Perceptual or Relative Colorimetric rendering intent, so indeed you give up that part of color management to the printer.

Then Epson has added an option similar to what some Canon drivers have--although IIRC those at least let you choose a rendering intent. As you say, at that point using this Epson driver you're not fully color-managed because you can't choose a rendering intent. Also, it's not clear (to me at least) from Eric's screen captures, but it doesn't look like he was choosing ICM Mode, and was instead showing Media Type options (I see in the third capture Mode: Off (No Color Adjustment) and in the fourth capture Current Settings ... Color Adjustment: Epson Standard (sRGB)).

ICM stands for Image Color Management. Basically it makes use of ICC profiles and makes use of a color engine written by Heidelberg, the printing press manufacurers. It has been replaced by WCS (Windows Color System) from Vista onwards. You will find more information about ICM here. You will note the instruction "When using this feature with an application that supports color management, turn off the application’s color management feature." You will also see "Color management by driver ICM (Windows XP x64, XP, or 2000 only)".

GFrom what I have read ICM/WCS is just another colour engine and you should not use it if you are already using a color managed work flow (Adobe, Corel, DxO etc). Otherwise you will end up with two lots of color correction and problematic results.

technoid Senior Member • Posts: 2,276
Re: So usually NOT fully color-managed

Eric Stevens wrote:

NAwlins Contrarian wrote:

NAwlins Contrarian wrote: ... When you use printer manages colors, you're not using a fully color-manged workflow. ... even in the printer driver, you cannot choose an ICC profile.

Actually, you can choose the ICC profile with which the Printer Manages Color. Below is a screenshot of the driver dialog (accessed from within Picture Window Pro. Sorry PS folks, the universe is bigger than Adobe Inc.). Five "modes" are offered. You choose Off (No Color Adjustment) when your program manages color. You choose ICM when you want the printer to manage color using an ICC profile of your choice. You then go to the Advanced sub-dialog to choose which profile.

The price paid is that you don't get to choose Perceptual or Relative Colorimetric rendering intent, so indeed you give up that part of color management to the printer.

Then Epson has added an option similar to what some Canon drivers have--although IIRC those at least let you choose a rendering intent. As you say, at that point using this Epson driver you're not fully color-managed because you can't choose a rendering intent. Also, it's not clear (to me at least) from Eric's screen captures, but it doesn't look like he was choosing ICM Mode, and was instead showing Media Type options (I see in the third capture Mode: Off (No Color Adjustment) and in the fourth capture Current Settings ... Color Adjustment: Epson Standard (sRGB)).

ICM stands for Image Color Management. Basically it makes use of ICC profiles and makes use of a color engine written by Heidelberg, the printing press manufacurers. It has been replaced by WCS (Windows Color System) from Vista onwards. You will find more information about ICM here. You will note the instruction "When using this feature with an application that supports color management, turn off the application’s color management feature." You will also see "Color management by driver ICM (Windows XP x64, XP, or 2000 only)".

GFrom what I have read ICM/WCS is just another colour engine and you should not use it if you are already using a color managed work flow (Adobe, Corel, DxO etc). Otherwise you will end up with two lots of color correction and problematic results.

That's correct. Since Photoshop offers application managed color you should use that and not ICM. And, of course, if you do choose to use ICM you shouldn't let Photoshop manage color. Also, Photoshop's ACE CME is slightly more accurate than Microsoft's CME which is what's used with driver ICM selected. The former also offers BPC which is commonly used. Especially with Rel. Col. Intent.

OP Eric Stevens New Member • Posts: 12
Re: So usually NOT fully color-managed

technoid wrote:

NAwlins Contrarian wrote:

Then Epson has added an option similar to what some Canon drivers have--although IIRC those at least let you choose a rendering intent. As you say, at that point using this Epson driver you're not fully color-managed because you can't choose a rendering intent. Also, it's not clear (to me at least) from Eric's screen captures, but it doesn't look like he was choosing ICM Mode, and was instead showing Media Type options (I see in the third capture Mode: Off (No Color Adjustment) and in the fourth capture Current Settings ... Color Adjustment: Epson Standard (sRGB)).

My Epson 9800 can print color managed images directly from the driver. I tested this some time ago on Windows and accurately printed images in ProPhoto RGB with Photoshop using "Printer Manages Color." It also allows selection of different intents, Perc., Rel., Sat., and Abs. The only thing often used but missing is BPC.

With this and all the preceding discussion in mind I have just run off two A3+ (13" x 19") prints of  the following image on Epson Premium Photopaper Glossy. One was Printer Manages Colors and the other was Photoshop Manages Colors.

There was a small but subtle difference between them. The Printer Manages Colors option had better defined detail and slightly richer colors. There is no doubt in my mind that the printer driver did a better job of managing the printed image than did Photoshop.

This is not an easy image from which to make a large print. The general level of lighting is obvious and it was taken many years ago with a Nikon D70.

technoid Senior Member • Posts: 2,276
Re: So usually NOT fully color-managed

Eric Stevens wrote:

technoid wrote:

NAwlins Contrarian wrote:

Then Epson has added an option similar to what some Canon drivers have--although IIRC those at least let you choose a rendering intent. As you say, at that point using this Epson driver you're not fully color-managed because you can't choose a rendering intent. Also, it's not clear (to me at least) from Eric's screen captures, but it doesn't look like he was choosing ICM Mode, and was instead showing Media Type options (I see in the third capture Mode: Off (No Color Adjustment) and in the fourth capture Current Settings ... Color Adjustment: Epson Standard (sRGB)).

My Epson 9800 can print color managed images directly from the driver. I tested this some time ago on Windows and accurately printed images in ProPhoto RGB with Photoshop using "Printer Manages Color." It also allows selection of different intents, Perc., Rel., Sat., and Abs. The only thing often used but missing is BPC.

With this and all the preceding discussion in mind I have just run off two A3+ (13" x 19") prints of the following image on Epson Premium Photopaper Glossy. One was Printer Manages Colors and the other was Photoshop Manages Colors.

There was a small but subtle difference between them. The Printer Manages Colors option had better defined detail and slightly richer colors. There is no doubt in my mind that the printer driver did a better job of managing the printed image than did Photoshop.

This is not an easy image from which to make a large print. The general level of lighting is obvious and it was taken many years ago with a Nikon D70.

My Canon 9500II would often make prettier prints using printer manages v application manages with their OEM profiles. Turned out printer managed pushed out, depending on where the colors were in the gamut, more saturated and sometimes lighter colors. Appears the engineers decided to alter things to achieve more "attractive" prints that don't use soft proofing and have good color managed workflow.

OTOH, using a fully color managed workflow I get prints that are indistinguishable, aside from bronzing type effects, on my three very printers. At least for images that are within all three printer gamuts.  Not possible to do with printer manages except for those that allow ICM and profile selection.

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