Samsung S20 ultra comparison

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Lee Jay Forum Pro • Posts: 56,227
Re: Samsung S20 ultra comparison

teemodk wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

RDM5546 wrote:

teemodk wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

Bingo.

Here is a real world comparison. Same sensor, same camera, different use of the sensor. I think the images speak for themselves.

Left to right: 12mp binned and gcam processed - 48mp gcam processed - 48mp raw (gcam).

WOW!! This is an amazing picture from 108M sensor in the S20 Utra.

That middle one is labeled 48, so they seem to all be from the 48MP 19mm periscope camera, not the 108MP 7mm main camera.

It's from an average cam with the IMX586 sensor. Native 48MP, binned to 12MP. The only thing this picture were ment for, is illustrate the claim that more pixels give more detail.

Okay.  I just tested an S20 with the 64MP camera at 12MP and at 64MP and the difference is quite dramatic.

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Lee Jay Forum Pro • Posts: 56,227
So, this is weird

I just went and tested two S20s and two Ultras and found something really odd.

The S20's Ultra's main 108MP camera produces lousy images at 108MP when examined at 1:1, partly due to over-processing and partly due to apparent motion blur (these were at 1/1250th). It's odd looking so it could be focus issues rather than motion blur (honestly, it looks like a mix).

The S20's telephoto 64MP camera produces pretty good images at 64MP when examined at 1:1.

The weird thing is, they both have 0.8 micron pixels. The 108MP sensor is a Samsung and the 64MP sensor is a Sony. I doubt the sensor quality is the difference but it could be part of it. It looks like all software, as if Samsung developed entirely different software for their own sensor than they did for the Sony sensor.

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RDM5546
RDM5546 Senior Member • Posts: 1,418
Re: Samsung S20 ultra comparison

Lee Jay wrote:

teemodk wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

RDM5546 wrote:

teemodk wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

Bingo.

Here is a real world comparison. Same sensor, same camera, different use of the sensor. I think the images speak for themselves.

Left to right: 12mp binned and gcam processed - 48mp gcam processed - 48mp raw (gcam).

WOW!! This is an amazing picture from 108M sensor in the S20 Utra.

That middle one is labeled 48, so they seem to all be from the 48MP 19mm periscope camera, not the 108MP 7mm main camera.

It's from an average cam with the IMX586 sensor. Native 48MP, binned to 12MP. The only thing this picture were ment for, is illustrate the claim that more pixels give more detail.

Okay. I just tested an S20 with the 64MP camera at 12MP and at 64MP and the difference is quite dramatic.

Yes.  I also have tested the S20 Ultra but with the 108mp at 12mp jpeg and at 108mp jpeg.  I too was impressed with the great increase in detail that the 108mp has in comparison to the 12mp.   However, the file size of the 108mp is huge! (40MB) .

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RDM5546
RDM5546 Senior Member • Posts: 1,418
Re: So, this is weird

Lee Jay wrote:

I just went and tested two S20s and two Ultras and found something really odd.

The S20's Ultra's main 108MP camera produces lousy images at 108MP when examined at 1:1, partly due to over-processing and partly due to apparent motion blur (these were at 1/1250th). It's odd looking so it could be focus issues rather than motion blur (honestly, it looks like a mix).

The S20's telephoto 64MP camera produces pretty good images at 64MP when examined at 1:1.

The weird thing is, they both have 0.8 micron pixels. The 108MP sensor is a Samsung and the 64MP sensor is a Sony. I doubt the sensor quality is the difference but it could be part of it. It looks like all software, as if Samsung developed entirely different software for their own sensor than they did for the Sony sensor.

What 64mp camera, I think you migh mean the 48mp camera?

I have not found a way to export the 48mp telephoto camera images only 12mp binned 2x2 images.  Are you sure you have an unbinned image from the telephoto camera?

On the rear of the phone there are 108-megapixel (wide-angle), 48-megapixel (telephoto), 12-megapixel (ultra-wide), time-of-flight camera.

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Lee Jay Forum Pro • Posts: 56,227
Re: So, this is weird

RDM5546 wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

I just went and tested two S20s and two Ultras and found something really odd.

The S20's Ultra's main 108MP camera produces lousy images at 108MP when examined at 1:1, partly due to over-processing and partly due to apparent motion blur (these were at 1/1250th). It's odd looking so it could be focus issues rather than motion blur (honestly, it looks like a mix).

The S20's telephoto 64MP camera produces pretty good images at 64MP when examined at 1:1.

The weird thing is, they both have 0.8 micron pixels. The 108MP sensor is a Samsung and the 64MP sensor is a Sony. I doubt the sensor quality is the difference but it could be part of it. It looks like all software, as if Samsung developed entirely different software for their own sensor than they did for the Sony sensor.

What 64mp camera, I think you migh mean the 48mp camera?

No.  The image files are 9248x6236 = 64,144,128 pixels.  As highlighted above, I'm talking about the S20/S20+ telelphoto, not the 48MP periscope from the Ultra.

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SHood Veteran Member • Posts: 5,620
Re: So, this is weird

I wonder if the larger 108mp senor module is challenged for fast OIS and fast AF in the small space of the phone.

I have been thinking about that for the past few days and wonder if that could explain some of the inconsistencies. If it is hardware related then a firmware update will not help much.

A larger sensor needs an stronger AF motor to move the larger lens elements quickly and there may not be enough room to do that. The same would apply for OIS especially with the accuracy required to support the large number of pixels.

Edit: This was suppose to be in response to Lee Jay. I'll change the subject heading to better match.

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RDM5546
RDM5546 Senior Member • Posts: 1,418
Re: So, this is weird

Lee Jay wrote:

RDM5546 wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

I just went and tested two S20s and two Ultras and found something really odd.

The S20's Ultra's main 108MP camera produces lousy images at 108MP when examined at 1:1, partly due to over-processing and partly due to apparent motion blur (these were at 1/1250th). It's odd looking so it could be focus issues rather than motion blur (honestly, it looks like a mix).

The S20's telephoto 64MP camera produces pretty good images at 64MP when examined at 1:1.

The weird thing is, they both have 0.8 micron pixels. The 108MP sensor is a Samsung and the 64MP sensor is a Sony. I doubt the sensor quality is the difference but it could be part of it. It looks like all software, as if Samsung developed entirely different software for their own sensor than they did for the Sony sensor.

What 64mp camera, I think you migh mean the 48mp camera?

No. The image files are 9248x6236 = 64,144,128 pixels. As highlighted above, I'm talking about the S20/S20+ telelphoto, not the 48MP periscope from the Ultra.

You are right. It was my mistaked interpreting your description of "two S20s and two Ultras " which I interpreted wrongly as being just cameras I know nothing about the S20 or S20+ . I only own the S20 Ultra which allows you to get the 108mp normal range camera (Samsung calls this 108mp camera in the S20 Ultra the wide angle camera but it appears to cover 24-120mm 35mm equival focal lengths which I would call normal) .

I see that you are saying the S20 ultra normal lens outputing 108mp is worse looking than the S20 64mp telephoto and you can see the image files are 64mp by array size.

I have not found a way to take 48mp images with the S20 Ultra telephoto lens. When I zooming using successive pincing motion the touch screen I can not go above 6.0X by further pincing motions. If I engage the telephone lens using the single tree icon at the bottoms of these screen it jumps to 5.0X and I can zoom by pinching to 100X.

However the technique that I use to output the unbinned image from the 108mp sensor is by changing 3:4 icon at the top of the screen and selecting the 3:4/108MP icon on the extreme left side of the list of five alternative image shape icons.

This does not work when using the telephoto camera. When the  camera is set at 10X  or 30x it is using the telephoto camera and  when the 3:4/108MP icon shape alternative appears in the list of shape icon selecting it causes the zoom factor to change from the telephote camera and 10X ot 30X and reture to 1.0X which is using 108mp sensor.  There is no shape icon available when using the telephoto camera for 3:4/48MP operation like the 3:4/108MP works for the 108mp camera.

I do not know how to output a telephoto camera JPEG that is unbinned like I can for the 108mp sensor.

I gather the S20 software is different than S20 Ultra and you have a way in the S20 of outputting the unbinned telephoto 60mp files. I wish I could output the unbinned 48mp telephoto camera image in the S20 ultra.

Thank you for posting all your good information.  I would love to get the files of youf good S20 and bad S20 ultra unbinned images so that might see the differences in quality myself.  Can you provide me link to these two images. I am interested.

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Panino Manino
Panino Manino Regular Member • Posts: 321
Re: So, this is weird

Have in mind that the intention there is for the device to be "a camera". Despite having many "cameras" it's all part of a single "unit". Behaving like one is part of the objective, that's why you're having these difficulties.

Maybe with another camera interface you can control each camera separately and independently.

Lee Jay Forum Pro • Posts: 56,227
Re: So, this is weird

RDM5546 wrote:

Thank you for posting all your good information. I would love to get the files of youf good S20 and bad S20 ultra unbinned images so that might see the differences in quality myself.

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RDM5546
RDM5546 Senior Member • Posts: 1,418
Re: So, this is weird

Lee Jay wrote:

RDM5546 wrote:

Thank you for posting all your good information. I would love to get the files of youf good S20 and bad S20 ultra unbinned images so that might see the differences in quality myself.

Wow.  the S20 Ultra main  appear blurry like they are out of focus for both the binned 12MP and  full 108MP array images.  I assume both of  S20 Ultra main images are uncropped so we are seeing the full frame images out of the camera.

THese pictures look like the light is pretty dim.  Do the images from the S20 Ultra  main camera this blurry ?

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Lee Jay Forum Pro • Posts: 56,227
Re: So, this is weird

RDM5546 wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

RDM5546 wrote:

Thank you for posting all your good information. I would love to get the files of youf good S20 and bad S20 ultra unbinned images so that might see the differences in quality myself.

Wow. the S20 Ultra main appear blurry like they are out of focus for both the binned 12MP and full 108MP array images. I assume both of S20 Ultra main images are uncropped

No, these are all fully zoomed in to at least 1:1 so no information is lost.

so we are seeing the full frame images out of the camera.

THese pictures look like the light is pretty dim.

Direct sunlight, but backlit.

Do the images from the S20 Ultra main camera this blurry ?

Two of those are from the S20 Ultra main camera.

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RDM5546
RDM5546 Senior Member • Posts: 1,418
Re: So, this is weird

My S20 Ultra camera takes pictures that look closer to your S20 64MP images than your S20 Ultra.

As a wild first guess it looks like poor AF performance in dim light. What is the ISO, speed, focal length, and fstop these Ultra pictures were shot at. Mine is a wild guess because, I have very few quantitative facts to base my guess on thous. The S20 Ultra is not an excellent dim light camera except when using the Night mode shootig with its limitations. I have seen on the S20 Ultra AI image processing problems in dim light with smearig and overcorrection but never a blurry out of focus look like you have.  I have seen some slow focussing in dim light doing macrophotography.

I show you below an example picture I took using my S20 Ultra in the 3x3 binned 12MP mode on the 108MP camera without flash in moderately dim light. The focus worked I think in this image. I have not seen what you are showing in my first few hundred shots.

An indoor picture taken without flash

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Lee Jay Forum Pro • Posts: 56,227
Re: So, this is weird

RDM5546 wrote:

My S20 Ultra camera takes pictures that look closer to your S20 64MP images than your S20 Ultra.

As a wild first guess it looks like poor AF performance in dim light.

As I said, it was taken in full sunlight at 1/1250th of a second.  It was at ISO 25.  Those were 100% crops or more.

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Lee Jay Forum Pro • Posts: 56,227
I know what's going on now

Lee Jay wrote:

RDM5546 wrote:

Thank you for posting all your good information. I would love to get the files of youf good S20 and bad S20 ultra unbinned images so that might see the differences in quality myself.

I went back and did a separate test.  The above is focused using Samsung's autofocus.  My new test was done with tap-to-focus on the area shown above, and it's pretty sharp.

The deal is, a large sensor (1/1.33") + relatively fast lens (f/1.8) plus tiny pixels (0.8 micron) yields shallow DOF when viewed at 1:1.  Therefore, Samsung missed focus (it focused on the store I was in instead of the building across the street.

The processing is still terrible, but hopefully the software update will fix that.

I did find something else out - the "slow motion" video (not ultra-slow-mo) is taken at 240fps.  It's unbelievable that this is not listed in any spec sheet anywhere.  I took a 12 second video so it's not limited to 1 second like the ultra slow-mo (480fps on the ultra and 960fps on the s20 and s20+).

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RDM5546
RDM5546 Senior Member • Posts: 1,418
Re: I know what's going on now

The AI automatic focus was the problem and the two S20 Ultra Main Camera shots are cropped by quite a bit to have the same field of view as the telephoto of the standard S20. Probably the configuration of the lighting was a factor. Using the touch focus with success is a good sign. This is the core AF focussing action while the failure was in the AI that selected where in the image to focus on. This is a hard problem to solve to build a machine that knows what to ignor an what the priorities should be for the many common photographic situations in general. That is why touch focus selection exists.

They done a bunch right in this smartphone but there is clearly room for improvement. The zoom blows away my S8 and the display screen incredible. I have few typing errors than I used to and the keys are not as crammed together as they were on the S8. The battery life is pretty good.

I hope the software updates will improve the ability of the user to adjust the color and smoothing correctio that is applied.

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Lee Jay Forum Pro • Posts: 56,227
My own comparison

These are cropped to match the FOV, and they were taken in a store so not a controlled test, but the processing on the Ultra's main camera seems terrible compared to the S20's telephoto camera with the same pixel size. The Ultra's telephoto is good.

Since the Ultra main and S20 telephoto have the same pixel size but the Ultra's main camera has more focal length (7mm vs 5.9mm) and aperture (3.9mm vs 2.9mm), it should out-resolve the S20's telephoto.  But it doesn't.  The 19mm telephoto on the Ultra is substantially better than the 5.9mm telephoto on the S20 when ultimate resolving power is desired.

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RDM5546
RDM5546 Senior Member • Posts: 1,418
Re: My own comparison

Lee Jay wrote:

These are cropped to match the FOV, and they were taken in a store so not a controlled test, but the processing on the Ultra's main camera seems terrible compared to the S20's telephoto camera with the same pixel size. The Ultra's telephoto is good.

Since the Ultra main and S20 telephoto have the same pixel size but the Ultra's main camera has more focal length (7mm vs 5.9mm) and aperture (3.9mm vs 2.9mm), it should out-resolve the S20's telephoto. But it doesn't. The 19mm telephoto on the Ultra is substantially better than the 5.9mm telephoto on the S20 when ultimate resolving power is desired.

The F-number of a lens is the ratio of its focal length divided by the diameter of the aperture.   Smaller F numbers than three commonly are more difficult to build with good quality than large F.   For example, given everning thing else equal a F2.8 lens shot wide open will be sharper than an F1.4 lens shot wide open.    These probably are low cost injected plastic lenses with very simple coatings.  It is amazing to me that they work as well as they do.  I expect the S20 to be in every way less in critical performance than the S20+ or S20 Ultra because it targeted for the lowest entry cost into the S20 family.  There are some conflicting performance critera such as low light, resolution, color rendition, ad bokeh which can make the design for the optimum to be conflicted with the usage scenario.  I do not know how elements these lenses have I would that would a factor too. I have used mostly the main camera of the S20 Ultra  at the wide end (1X) and the pictures are nicer than my S8 took but not every picture is a keeper.   I am more bothered by the color and smearing than the resolution which seems to be pretty good.   I think I am not about to stop using my DSLRs because they make better pictures but they are not handy to carry for some of my usage.

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Lee Jay Forum Pro • Posts: 56,227
Re: My own comparison

RDM5546 wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

These are cropped to match the FOV, and they were taken in a store so not a controlled test, but the processing on the Ultra's main camera seems terrible compared to the S20's telephoto camera with the same pixel size. The Ultra's telephoto is good.

Since the Ultra main and S20 telephoto have the same pixel size but the Ultra's main camera has more focal length (7mm vs 5.9mm) and aperture (3.9mm vs 2.9mm), it should out-resolve the S20's telephoto. But it doesn't. The 19mm telephoto on the Ultra is substantially better than the 5.9mm telephoto on the S20 when ultimate resolving power is desired.

The F-number of a lens is the ratio of its focal length divided by the diameter of the aperture.

Yes...that's how I calculated the aperture.

Smaller F numbers than three commonly are more difficult to build with good quality than large F.

We're talking about f/1.8 vs f/2. Not enough difference to matter.

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Panino Manino
Panino Manino Regular Member • Posts: 321
Re: My own comparison

In teory, technically, this Ultra is very good:

But suffers from moiré?

https://www.gsmarena.com/piccmp.php3?idType=4&idPhone1=10081&idPhone2=9936&idPhone3=10040

kalpachev
kalpachev New Member • Posts: 13
Re: My own comparison

I have a few questions to the S 20 Ultra owners:

1.

Can someone confirm how bad is the auto focus at the moment (for a video shooting, for example faces etc.) ?

2.

I know it can shoot RAW, but hearing that it is only 12MB, only from the main camera. Is this true ?

3. Do you think the software update will be able to solve the AF issue ?

I am currently looking for new phone and not sure between S20 Ultra / Oppo Find X2 Pro / Huawei P40 Pro

Thank you.

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