With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?

Started 7 months ago | Discussions
Anonymous Pi Contributing Member • Posts: 875
Re: It's a good question

michaeladawson wrote:

There's nothing wrong with your view of what Nikon will be doing with their camera lineup. I just don't quite agree with it. First, I don't count the Df. That's a one-off oddball.

So Nikon's DSLR line-up (full frame) is:

D610 (entry) -> D780 (mid-level "prosumer") -> D850 (high MP "pro") -> D6 (flagship "pro")

What does a Z lineup look like if there is both a Z7 and Z8?

Z5 (entry) -> Z6 (mid-level "prosumer") -> Z7 (high MP "prosumer") -> Z8 (higher MP "pro") -> Z9 (flagship "pro")

It's certainly possible that this will be Nikon's line-up. But it's an extra model in the line-up in a shrinking market. I just think the line-up would make more sense if the Z7 MkII was upgraded to be more of a "pro" camera and gained the latest 60MP sensor. Even the rumored D5 is supposed to have dual card slots. I expect a Z6 MkII and a Z7 MkII will both have dual slots. What other features need to be carried over from the D850 to Z?

The problem with this view is that it ignores the fact that the DSLR lineup -- which is clearly on the long road to being phased out -- wasn't always as you present it now. Until recently (well, for a good amount of time, I didn't notice exactly when it disappeared, but I don't think it was that long ago) it also included the D810 which was really halfway between the D750 & D850 in resolution, and the gaps would be wider between Z6, 7 & 8. Also, the Z6 & 7 share the same body and more, and could indefinitely, making keeping both of them less development work (for the m2, m3, ...) over time than 5 completely distinct cameras. (Who knows if the Z8 could share a body with a Z9 or maybe m2 models of the Z6 & 7.)

So, it's not really an extra model in the lineup. As long as they are rationally distinguished from each other and are optimal for certain photographers/use, there's no reason Nikon can't offer 5 FX cameras even in these times. (If they aren't rationally distinct from each other, then Nikon has a problem.) There will probably be fewer DX models as well, so overall the total number of cameras will likely remain roughly the same. I doubt very much there will be 4 DX models, maybe only 2, but I would say 3 tops.

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 27,102
Re: It's a good question
1

michaeladawson wrote:

So Nikon's DSLR line-up (full frame) is:

D610 (entry) -> D780 (mid-level "prosumer") -> D850 (high MP "pro") -> D6 (flagship "pro")

Note: CURRENT and existing.

What does a Z lineup look like if there is both a Z7 and Z8?

Z5 (entry) -> Z6 (mid-level "prosumer") -> Z7 (high MP "prosumer") -> Z8 (higher MP "pro") -> Z9 (flagship "pro")

Note: Some CURRENT and existing, but more than half is SPECULATION and imaginative.

You can't compare imaginative cameras with existing ones. Forget about Z5, when (if) that comes the Z6 will be phased out. Forget about the Z8 and the Z9 for a long time. When one of those comes, the Z7 will be phased out and replaced.

I don't think Nikon will continue spitting out as many mirrorless models as they once did with DSLRs. That time is forever gone. I think you must see it as the Z6 is a D610 AND D780 in one, and the Z7 is the D850 of the mirrorless cameras. I know many people won't accept this view, but I think they are simply refusing to accept reality. Nikon won't have any interest in, and resources to continuing the DSLR line as well as the mirrorless line in parallel, so they will drop the DSLR. Maybe one more model to be expected (D7 maybe), but after that it's all gone. I am pretty sure about that. ...and when (if) the Z8 comes, the Z7 will be dropped as a natural step forward in development.

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briantilley
briantilley Veteran Member • Posts: 4,893
Re: It's a good question

olyflyer wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

So Nikon's DSLR line-up (full frame) is:

D610 (entry) -> D780 (mid-level "prosumer") -> D850 (high MP "pro") -> D6 (flagship "pro")

Note: CURRENT and existing.

What does a Z lineup look like if there is both a Z7 and Z8?

Z5 (entry) -> Z6 (mid-level "prosumer") -> Z7 (high MP "prosumer") -> Z8 (higher MP "pro") -> Z9 (flagship "pro")

Note: Some CURRENT and existing, but more than half is SPECULATION and imaginative.

You can't compare imaginative cameras with existing ones.

I think you mean "imaginary".  Something like the original Fuji X100 was quite an imaginative camera, but it was certainly real

Forget about Z5, when (if) that comes the Z6 will be phased out. Forget about the Z8 and the Z9 for a long time. When one of those comes, the Z7 will be phased out and replaced.

Clearly you're just guessing, but you make it sound so definite.

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Anonymous Pi Contributing Member • Posts: 875
Re: It's a good question
2

olyflyer wrote:

You can't compare imaginative cameras with existing ones. Forget about Z5, when (if) that comes the Z6 will be phased out. Forget about the Z8 and the Z9 for a long time. When one of those comes, the Z7 will be phased out and replaced.

This doesn't make sense for at least a couple of reasons.

First of all, "phasing out" models with the naming strategy Nikon has chosen for Z cameras leaves you with little or no room to maneuver in the market. Sure, they could bring them back, but why? And why phase out the cameras that you've established reputation with?

Secondly, this idea that the Z5 will replace the Z6 (based on rumors of the Z5) isn't even rational. Nikon doesn't need to replace the Z6 with something that a couple hundred dollars cheaper, and not nearly as good, as a Z6. What they do need to do is add a camera below the Z6 that is several hundred dollars cheaper and complements the Z6 as a true entry level FX camera. The rumored "Z5" doesn't do that, it's not a rational product positioning, all it does is disrupt Nikon's own product line. I for one am very skeptical of the rumors.

Likewise, with the Z7/Z8 contentions -- especially combined with these Z5/Z6 ideas. When you put these ideas together, you have this huge functional gap between this crippled (rumored) "Z5" spec and the expected "Z8" spec, with nothing in between. Again, this isn't a rational product line.

Nikon can very well have a viable line of 5 FX cameras if they are rationally positioned. A Z9 is a different animal altogether, so it doesn't have to "fit in" with the others. A Z5 for $1K - 1.2K with less functionality (esp. no IBIS) and the same resolution as a Z6; a Z6 where it is now; a Z7 where it is now; a Z8 at 60MP: these all appeal to different people for different reasons and cover the full spread of FX capability. This is rational. The idea you are repeating is not rational, it's haphazard and disruptive to Nikon's own product strategy. Maybe Nikon will totally surprise me, but I don't expect them to engage in madness.

nk4002r Regular Member • Posts: 245
Re: It's a good question
2

Yes, I agree with you.  There was a bubble - a boom period when new cameras came often.  That period is over, now we'll have the same camera model for 4-5 years.  What people should be asking for is firmware upgrades.  The Z7 with V3 firmware is already the Z7II in my opinion.  It improved so much and we must appreciate that and applaud Nikon.  When released, the Z7 exceeded the A7RII, but was a little behind the A7RIII, with firmware V3 it is on par and arguably exceeds it - certainly for my requirements.  The 61MP of the A7RIV is not something to covet...

The Z5, Z8 and Z9 are not even rumors, there isn't any credible information about the planned Nikon camera line up.  Even if there was a public Nikon corporate plan, all bets are off in these changing economic times.

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Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 19,922
Re: It's a good question

nk4002r wrote:

The 61MP of the A7RIV is not something to covet...

All other factors ignored (and sometimes there are other factors) going from 45 MP to 90 MP should increase sensor resolution tested in isolation by 42% (square root of 2).

Image resolution is made up from a percentage of lens resolution tested in isolation and a percentage of sensor resolution tested in isolation.

45 to 61 MP is an increase of 33% in potential sensor resolution - measured in isolation. While each lens and body combination needs be tested to get an exact measure of image resolution - a reasonable expectation is an average increase of 16.5% in image resolution.

To me a 16.5% average increase in image resolution for some types of photography can be worth having.

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Leonard Shepherd
In lots of ways good photography is much more about how equipment is used rather than anything else.

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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 27,102
Re: It's a good question

briantilley wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

So Nikon's DSLR line-up (full frame) is:

D610 (entry) -> D780 (mid-level "prosumer") -> D850 (high MP "pro") -> D6 (flagship "pro")

Note: CURRENT and existing.

What does a Z lineup look like if there is both a Z7 and Z8?

Z5 (entry) -> Z6 (mid-level "prosumer") -> Z7 (high MP "prosumer") -> Z8 (higher MP "pro") -> Z9 (flagship "pro")

Note: Some CURRENT and existing, but more than half is SPECULATION and imaginative.

You can't compare imaginative cameras with existing ones.

I think you mean "imaginary".

Yes. Sorry for the error.

Forget about Z5, when (if) that comes the Z6 will be phased out. Forget about the Z8 and the Z9 for a long time. When one of those comes, the Z7 will be phased out and replaced.

Clearly you're just guessing,

Yes.

but you make it sound so definite.

Like everybody else...

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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 27,102
Re: It's a good question
1

Anonymous Pi wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

You can't compare imaginative cameras with existing ones. Forget about Z5, when (if) that comes the Z6 will be phased out. Forget about the Z8 and the Z9 for a long time. When one of those comes, the Z7 will be phased out and replaced.

This doesn't make sense for at least a couple of reasons.

First of all, "phasing out" models with the naming strategy Nikon has chosen for Z cameras leaves you with little or no room to maneuver in the market. Sure, they could bring them back, but why? And why phase out the cameras that you've established reputation with?

Secondly, this idea that the Z5 will replace the Z6 (based on rumors of the Z5) isn't even rational. Nikon doesn't need to replace the Z6 with something that a couple hundred dollars cheaper, and not nearly as good, as a Z6. What they do need to do is add a camera below the Z6 that is several hundred dollars cheaper and complements the Z6 as a true entry level FX camera. The rumored "Z5" doesn't do that, it's not a rational product positioning, all it does is disrupt Nikon's own product line. I for one am very skeptical of the rumors.

Likewise, with the Z7/Z8 contentions -- especially combined with these Z5/Z6 ideas. When you put these ideas together, you have this huge functional gap between this crippled (rumored) "Z5" spec and the expected "Z8" spec, with nothing in between. Again, this isn't a rational product line.

Nikon can very well have a viable line of 5 FX cameras if they are rationally positioned. A Z9 is a different animal altogether, so it doesn't have to "fit in" with the others. A Z5 for $1K - 1.2K with less functionality (esp. no IBIS) and the same resolution as a Z6; a Z6 where it is now; a Z7 where it is now; a Z8 at 60MP: these all appeal to different people for different reasons and cover the full spread of FX capability. This is rational. The idea you are repeating is not rational, it's haphazard and disruptive to Nikon's own product strategy. Maybe Nikon will totally surprise me, but I don't expect them to engage in madness.

Whatever you believe is fine for me. What I am convinced of is that times are changing and the tracks of COVID-19 are not clear yet, so we will see which way it goes. I think it's going to go my way...

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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 27,102
Re: It's a good question
1

nk4002r wrote:

Yes, I agree with you. There was a bubble - a boom period when new cameras came often. That period is over, now we'll have the same camera model for 4-5 years. What people should be asking for is firmware upgrades. The Z7 with V3 firmware is already the Z7II in my opinion. It improved so much and we must appreciate that and applaud Nikon. When released, the Z7 exceeded the A7RII, but was a little behind the A7RIII, with firmware V3 it is on par and arguably exceeds it - certainly for my requirements. The 61MP of the A7RIV is not something to covet...

The Z5, Z8 and Z9 are not even rumors, there isn't any credible information about the planned Nikon camera line up. Even if there was a public Nikon corporate plan, all bets are off in these changing economic times.

Exactly. The problem is that many people are incapable of thinking rationally and emotionally neutral, instead their thinking is controlled by emotions and what they wish for, not what is probable. I don't care how many models Nikon will release, and if the global financial situation would allow, I would welcome many new models, but currently everyone is fighting for survival and in this situation, to flood the market with many models would be totally crazy.

Who would buy those cameras when large number of the consumers lost their income in the traces of COVID-19 and force to chose between food and milk or a new camera...? Who would chose a new camera in that situation? Nikon knows that very well also, so pushing new models on the current market for the coming 1-2-3 years would be suicide for them unless carefully planed in a replacement scheme and aiming at a specific group. Low end consumers will definitely not spend money on new cameras unless their finances are solid, and even high end users like professional photographers probably consider carefully is a new camera is REALLY needed at this moment of uncertainty.

I am not that well informed about how well the photography business is doing, but my guess is that it suffered a lot during the last months, perhaps much more than many other businesses. With weddings sport events and cancelled, customers losing their income, large companies struggle and so on, it is an easy choice to skip the pro photographer as saving money activity. I don't know if that's happening, but I am pretty sure that business is NOT as usual for the photography business.

I would be very surprised if Nikon would ignore all of the above and would go on just like before, like if COVID-19 never existed. I think that the world changed forever, and the world we knew will never return to as it was before.

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briantilley
briantilley Veteran Member • Posts: 4,893
Re: It's a good question
1

olyflyer wrote:

briantilley wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

Forget about Z5, when (if) that comes the Z6 will be phased out. Forget about the Z8 and the Z9 for a long time. When one of those comes, the Z7 will be phased out and replaced.

Clearly you're just guessing,

Yes.

but you make it sound so definite.

Like everybody else...

No, not everybody else.

Contrast what you said: "When one of those comes, the Z7 will be phased out and replaced"

With this, from another poster earlier in the thread: "I don't personally see a lot of reason for the current Z7 to stay around after a next generation high res mirrorless body comes out from Nikon"

He makes it clear it's just his opinion, you state that it willhappen. There's a difference

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1llusive
1llusive Senior Member • Posts: 2,226
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?
1

SteveCooper wrote:

The Z7 has more resolution than the Z6, and less resolution than the rumored Z8. The Z7 is the closest mirrorless equivalent to the D850. The rumored Z8 will have more resolution than the D850, but unless they have a new Expeed 7, I can't imagine the rumored Z8 will be as fast as the D850 or Z7 since it is rumored to use the 60MP (approximate) sensor.

Nikon considers the Z7 to be a professional body, but my Sony DSC-F828 can take some beautiful photos, so what makes it professional?

Nice Mackies - I've got the MR624's at my computer desk right now 

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RedFox88 Forum Pro • Posts: 30,003
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?

sfoweatherman wrote:

If there's a replacement to the Z7, hopefully, Nikon will address the slow follow focus to compete with Sony and now the Canon R series.

Sounds like that’s the z7s fix model that’s coming later this years

The only other situation with the Z7 is the action type shooting sessions.

FKS
FKS Veteran Member • Posts: 3,115
Re: It's a good question

In the distant past, top of the line was the D2, then the D100, then the D70 (mimicking the film bodies F6, F100, F80). So the number of digits doesn't always indicate pecking order.

They've improved on that as you've noted, but with odd gaps (D810 to D850, D700 to D750 to D780). Marketing hasn't been Nikon's forte.

If Nikon Rumors is correct, the S models are coming, but those are just incremental upgrades.

michaeladawson wrote:

I don't see many alternatives based on the naming convention they've introduced with the Z line. What does the next model of Z6 become? Z16? Oh, wait. Is a Z16 a lower end model compared with the Z50?

I don't really care if they use Mark II, Mk II, or simply II. But they are going to have to do something like that unless they start following the auto industry and just keep the same name year after year despite model updates. Maybe they'll call it a Z7 2022.

I think it is telling that Nikon didn't keep a naming convention similar to their DSLR lineup. Simply substitute Z for D. The Z6 could have been the Z600, the Z7 the Z700. And the Z50 would have been a Z5000. But they didn't do that.

Model names are important as they are one way for a consumer to make sense out of a company's product lineup.

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astirusty Senior Member • Posts: 1,164
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?

breivogel wrote:

Apparently, many people don't think of the Z7 as a pro camera. Z8 to correct the deficiencies?

Possibly due to a few things.

Body of Z7 is lacking, making it hard to hold compared to Pro camera, (who's name shall not be mentioned) I used to own.

A vertical grip with controls can't be attached to Z7.

Menu system / controls needs to evolve, made easier to use.

Firmware needs to mature.  On two occasions, Z7 would not allow selection of menu function, until a factory reset was done.

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jfriend00 Forum Pro • Posts: 12,834
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?
2

astirusty wrote:

breivogel wrote:

Apparently, many people don't think of the Z7 as a pro camera. Z8 to correct the deficiencies?

Possibly due to a few things.

Body of Z7 is lacking, making it hard to hold compared to Pro camera, (who's name shall not be mentioned) I used to own.

A vertical grip with controls can't be attached to Z7.

Menu system / controls needs to evolve, made easier to use.

Firmware needs to mature. On two occasions, Z7 would not allow selection of menu function, until a factory reset was done.

Those last two are general usability and bugs, neither of which has to do with being a "pro" body or not.  Those should be fixed regardless.  The first two are better aligned with a "pro" body, particularly no availability of an add-on grip.  I think there are some pros that would argue that dual cards is also a widely appreciated "pro" feature that doesn't have to only available on pro cameras, but is highly desired on pro cameras by many pros.

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John

astirusty Senior Member • Posts: 1,164
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?

jfriend00 wrote:

astirusty wrote:

Menu system / controls needs to evolve, made easier to use.

Firmware needs to mature. On two occasions, Z7 would not allow selection of menu function, until a factory reset was done.

Those last two are general usability and bugs, neither of which has to do with being a "pro" body or not. Those should be fixed regardless.

My point is pros are not going to go for a camera with a still evolving menu system, whereby they miss shots, become distracted, or waste time digging and fiddling around due menu changes.

Same with a camera with a flaky operating system or OS for a new line of cameras which hasn't proven itself to be reliable.

Can you imagine a pro saying: Sorry I got new NiKanOy ZM11 and it locked up.  Give about 5-minutes to do a factory reset and re-load of my settings; then we can continue the Wedding.   Make that 10-minutes, with the last firmware update, the menu system changed, and I can't find factory reset.

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tommiejeep
tommiejeep Veteran Member • Posts: 7,325
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?
4

Well, my experience with Professional Photographers is that, when on assignment,  they do not need to Menu Dive, use a camera that they are totally comfortable with and have a backup.  Many do not use latest model.   If they are using a camera as a primary then they have already worked out how it works,

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Anticipate the Light and wing it when you get it wrong but always have fun
Tom
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briantilley
briantilley Veteran Member • Posts: 4,893
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?
4

astirusty wrote:

jfriend00 wrote:

astirusty wrote:

Menu system / controls needs to evolve, made easier to use.

Firmware needs to mature. On two occasions, Z7 would not allow selection of menu function, until a factory reset was done.

Those last two are general usability and bugs, neither of which has to do with being a "pro" body or not. Those should be fixed regardless.

My point is pros are not going to go for a camera with a still evolving menu system, whereby they miss shots, become distracted, or waste time digging and fiddling around due menu changes.

That's odd, because I'm using my Z6 and Z7 on the same paid assignments I was previously using a D5 and D850 for.  Or, I would be if it wasn't for Covid-19...

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Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 19,922
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?
3

astirusty wrote:

Can you imagine a pro saying: Sorry I got new NiKanOy ZM11 and it locked up. Give about 5-minutes to do a factory reset and re-load of my settings; then we can continue the Wedding. Make that 10-minutes, with the last firmware update, the menu system changed, and I can't find factory reset.

Surely anyone who has not first mastered use and control of their equipment before taking on a paid job does not score high on a scale of 1 to 10 as a pro 

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Leonard Shepherd
In lots of ways good photography is much more about how equipment is used rather than anything else.

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jfriend00 Forum Pro • Posts: 12,834
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?
3

astirusty wrote:

jfriend00 wrote:

astirusty wrote:

Menu system / controls needs to evolve, made easier to use.

Firmware needs to mature. On two occasions, Z7 would not allow selection of menu function, until a factory reset was done.

Those last two are general usability and bugs, neither of which has to do with being a "pro" body or not. Those should be fixed regardless.

My point is pros are not going to go for a camera with a still evolving menu system, whereby they miss shots, become distracted, or waste time digging and fiddling around due menu changes.

Same with a camera with a flaky operating system or OS for a new line of cameras which hasn't proven itself to be reliable.

Can you imagine a pro saying: Sorry I got new NiKanOy ZM11 and it locked up. Give about 5-minutes to do a factory reset and re-load of my settings; then we can continue the Wedding. Make that 10-minutes, with the last firmware update, the menu system changed, and I can't find factory reset.

My point is that you don't need a Z8 to improve a menu system (if it even needs fixing) or fix a bug that occasionally causes a lockup.  You need to just fix your bugs or usability in the current product.   No need for a new hardware rev just to fix software issues.

Nowhere anywhere in this forum are you seeing significant numbers of people saying that they can't use the Z7 for professional assignments because the menus are junk or the camera locks up all the time.  You've apparently developed that opinion, but I'm not reading that lots of pros are saying that or pros are saying they're avoiding it for those reasons.

Menus are user interface so everyone has their own opinion about UI (some more informed and reasoned than others) and, in particular, with these kinds of menus, everyone will have their own "pet" feature they wish was easier to get to.  None of that means it's not a pro camera or isn't already being used by lots of pros.

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John

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