With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?

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michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 14,363
It's a good question
2

First, let me say that I think Nikon will start using Mark II, Mark III designations.  I don't see that they can do otherwise given the Zx model numbering.

So I think it would be really strange for Nikon to come out with a high resolution (60MP) Z8.  It would make much more sense to introduce a Z7 MkII with 60MP.

If Nikon were to have a lineup that included Z5, Z6, Z7, Z8, and Z9 (a D6 pro type model) that would be one more in the lineup than they ever had in DSLR.  If they do that, of which I'm doubtful, they would really need to come up with some differentiation between Z7 and Z8.

I have no clue what Nikon will actually do.  But I would think that the Z8 will really be a Z7 Mk II.

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BGD300V1
BGD300V1 Senior Member • Posts: 2,460
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?
6

john isaacs wrote:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Z7 is not a professional camera. Not even close.

Does that mean that folks who have made money with it have to give the money back?

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rokoko
rokoko Senior Member • Posts: 1,883
Re: It's a good question
1

The limitation of current Z6/Z7 firmware updates seemed to be certain. I had a chance testing the 20/1.8 last weekend, and asked Nikon couple of questions. What they explained was hardware related restriction, which prevented the AF performance upgrade.

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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 27,109
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?
1

john isaacs wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

Jeff Self wrote:

When the Z7 debuted, everyone thought it was a mirrorless version of the D850. But now that there are rumors of the Z8, where does the Z7 fit now? After all, the D850 is a professional camera. Best jack of all trades dSLR there is. A rumored Z8 seems to me that it would be the equivalent of a D850. So what's the purpose of the Z7 then? I see the purpose of the Z6. It's basically equivalent to the D750/D780. Maybe the Z8 will be the equivalent of the D5/D6? Then maybe there will be no Z9? Provided the Z8 isn't the D5/D6 equivalent, what's the point of the Z7?

I'm a happy owner of a D850, D500 and a Z6. Hoping to have mirrorless versions of my D850 and D500 in the next couple of years.

The Z7 is also a professional camera, just like the D850, or the Z6. What makes you think otherwise...? If the Z8 will become available, it will still be a professional camera, nothing will change that. By the time the Z8 comes, the Z7 will be at least two years old, so it will be a generation change, but that doesn't render the Z7 into useless paper weight, just like if Nikon would ever come up with a crazy idea of making a D860 to replace your D850 with. Would you think that it would mean ANY change in the build quality or the performance of the D850 if it was replaced by a new model...? In fact, even if the Z8 will really be just like the D850, and Nikon scrap ALL the DSLR line, the D850 will still be a pro camera, just like the cameras it replaced a few years ago.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Z7 is not a professional camera. Not even close.

Don't worry, you are not big enough to "burst my bubble...". 

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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 27,109
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?
1

Lance B wrote:

john isaacs wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

Jeff Self wrote:

When the Z7 debuted, everyone thought it was a mirrorless version of the D850. But now that there are rumors of the Z8, where does the Z7 fit now? After all, the D850 is a professional camera. Best jack of all trades dSLR there is. A rumored Z8 seems to me that it would be the equivalent of a D850. So what's the purpose of the Z7 then? I see the purpose of the Z6. It's basically equivalent to the D750/D780. Maybe the Z8 will be the equivalent of the D5/D6? Then maybe there will be no Z9? Provided the Z8 isn't the D5/D6 equivalent, what's the point of the Z7?

I'm a happy owner of a D850, D500 and a Z6. Hoping to have mirrorless versions of my D850 and D500 in the next couple of years.

The Z7 is also a professional camera, just like the D850, or the Z6. What makes you think otherwise...? If the Z8 will become available, it will still be a professional camera, nothing will change that. By the time the Z8 comes, the Z7 will be at least two years old, so it will be a generation change, but that doesn't render the Z7 into useless paper weight, just like if Nikon would ever come up with a crazy idea of making a D860 to replace your D850 with. Would you think that it would mean ANY change in the build quality or the performance of the D850 if it was replaced by a new model...? In fact, even if the Z8 will really be just like the D850, and Nikon scrap ALL the DSLR line, the D850 will still be a pro camera, just like the cameras it replaced a few years ago.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Z7 is not a professional camera. Not even close.

LOL. Way more professional than any dinky Olympus.

Sure, that's true, but then the question is: What is the definition of a "professional camera"? In my opinion, any camera which is used by a professional photographer who earns his/her daily bread with that camera is a professional camera. To be honest, I think only amateurs worry about these things, a real pro care only about if the camera is good enough for the work he/she is doing or not. "biggest, heaviest, fastest, most expensive" are not part of the definition of what a professional camera is, and today the professional photographers are running around with every kind of cameras, large and small, heavy and light. Maybe not so many with Olympus, but maybe even one or two of that brand can bee seen once in a blue moon.

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Lance B Forum Pro • Posts: 32,727
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?

olyflyer wrote:

Lance B wrote:

john isaacs wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

Jeff Self wrote:

When the Z7 debuted, everyone thought it was a mirrorless version of the D850. But now that there are rumors of the Z8, where does the Z7 fit now? After all, the D850 is a professional camera. Best jack of all trades dSLR there is. A rumored Z8 seems to me that it would be the equivalent of a D850. So what's the purpose of the Z7 then? I see the purpose of the Z6. It's basically equivalent to the D750/D780. Maybe the Z8 will be the equivalent of the D5/D6? Then maybe there will be no Z9? Provided the Z8 isn't the D5/D6 equivalent, what's the point of the Z7?

I'm a happy owner of a D850, D500 and a Z6. Hoping to have mirrorless versions of my D850 and D500 in the next couple of years.

The Z7 is also a professional camera, just like the D850, or the Z6. What makes you think otherwise...? If the Z8 will become available, it will still be a professional camera, nothing will change that. By the time the Z8 comes, the Z7 will be at least two years old, so it will be a generation change, but that doesn't render the Z7 into useless paper weight, just like if Nikon would ever come up with a crazy idea of making a D860 to replace your D850 with. Would you think that it would mean ANY change in the build quality or the performance of the D850 if it was replaced by a new model...? In fact, even if the Z8 will really be just like the D850, and Nikon scrap ALL the DSLR line, the D850 will still be a pro camera, just like the cameras it replaced a few years ago.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Z7 is not a professional camera. Not even close.

LOL. Way more professional than any dinky Olympus.

Sure, that's true, but then the question is: What is the definition of a "professional camera"? In my opinion, any camera which is used by a professional photographer who earns his/her daily bread with that camera is a professional camera. To be honest, I think only amateurs worry about these things, a real pro care only about if the camera is good enough for the work he/she is doing or not. "biggest, heaviest, fastest, most expensive" are not part of the definition of what a professional camera is, and today the professional photographers are running around with every kind of cameras, large and small, heavy and light. Maybe not so many with Olympus, but maybe even one or two of that brand can bee seen once in a blue moon.

Never said anything about what cameras are professional or not professional. Obviously, a professional camera can be whatever camera makes money for you. However, my response is to this John Isaacs who seems to think that there is a certain type of camera that is professional and that he said the Z7 can't be as by his statement "the Z7 is not a professional camera. Not even close". Which is absurd in the extreme. I was pointing out that his beloved Olympus camera would be used less by professionals than the Z7 regardless of what he would like to think, hence my statement, "Way more professional than any dinky Olympus". In other words, the Z7 would be used by more professional camera users than his beloved Olympus meaning it is "more professional". Having said all this, generally speaking there are cameras that are more professional than others simply because they have more features that professional users require. I really do not know why I even need to explain this.

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jfw Contributing Member • Posts: 558
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?
1

Ellis Vener wrote:

Jeff Self wrote:

After all, the D850 is a professional camera.

so is the Z7. At least it is when I am using it.

Best response in the whole thread, Ellis.  QED.

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UshdKnow New Member • Posts: 9
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?

Nikon Better Hurry Up with the Z8
Sony‘s coming with another Camera
And The Iphone 12 Max Pro will be
A same year budget breaker for some
and by then then (a year later) a Nikon
Z8 will be a boring non event.
Come On Nikon put out a press release
And announce It!
If you want people to wait for it
You’ll have to give them something to wait for
Before they get distracted and go elsewhere.
Every month that you delay the announcement
will cost you tens of thousands of unit sales.
Come on. Get moving NOW!

rick in vegas Regular Member • Posts: 213
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?

And you decided this?

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Chris Mak Senior Member • Posts: 2,459
Re: It's a good question

rokoko wrote:

The limitation of current Z6/Z7 firmware updates seemed to be certain. I had a chance testing the 20/1.8 last weekend, and asked Nikon couple of questions. What they explained was hardware related restriction, which prevented the AF performance upgrade.

That is terribly vague though. I'm sure there are hardware limitations, but I am also sure that Nikon was a lot more specific about what it is that is preventing better AF, than simply stating that it is the hardware? Not meaning to imply that your input has no value, but it would be far less subject to all sorts of speculating if people were a bit more careful and precise when making statements on whether the AF performance of the Z6/Z7 can be further improved by firmware updates, or not, and describe why not, if that is the case, certainly when claiming that it comes directly from Nikon.

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rokoko
rokoko Senior Member • Posts: 1,883
Re: It's a good question

Chris Mak wrote:

rokoko wrote:

The limitation of current Z6/Z7 firmware updates seemed to be certain. I had a chance testing the 20/1.8 last weekend, and asked Nikon couple of questions. What they explained was hardware related restriction, which prevented the AF performance upgrade.

That is terribly vague though. I'm sure there are hardware limitations, but I am also sure that Nikon was a lot more specific about what it is that is preventing better AF, than simply stating that it is the hardware? Not meaning to imply that your input has no value, but it would be far less subject to all sorts of speculating if people were a bit more careful and precise when making statements on whether the AF performance of the Z6/Z7 can be further improved by firmware updates, or not, and describe why not, if that is the case, certainly when claiming that it comes directly from Nikon.

I understand your frustration, if not satisfaction.

I also asked:

if a Z5 is coming, the answer was "Don't know";

when 70-200 f2.8 will be available, the answer was "Don't know"...

So I took what they knew as a compliment.

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SteveCooper
SteveCooper Senior Member • Posts: 1,540
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?
2

I don't believe Nikon should be in a rush to release any new camera bodies. Since version 3 FW, the Z series are very nice cameras that have continued to get better.

Right now with the current pandemic, there are going to be a lot of people being more cautious with their money, and use what they have and maybe learn how to better use their gear.

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FingerPainter Veteran Member • Posts: 9,245
Re: It's a good question

michaeladawson wrote:

First, let me say that I think Nikon will start using Mark II, Mark III designations. I don't see that they can do otherwise given the Zx model numbering.

There is a good chance this will happen.

So I think it would be really strange for Nikon to come out with a high resolution (60MP) Z8. It would make much more sense to introduce a Z7 MkII with 60MP.

The Z8 will be to the Z6 and Z7 what the D800 was to the D700 and D3X, and then some. (I's say like the D800 was to the D610 and D750 except I think the D800 was introduced first.) It will be a professional model (like the D8x0 line and unlike the D610, D750, D780, Z6 or Z7.

If Nikon were to have a lineup that included Z5, Z6, Z7, Z8, and Z9 (a D6 pro type model) that would be one more in the lineup than they ever had in DSLR.

Think again: Dx, D8x0, D7x0, D6X0 and Df, I can count to five.  I expect that if a Z5 comes out, it will be lower end than any Nikon FF dSLR ever was.

If they do that, of which I'm doubtful, they would really need to come up with some differentiation between Z7 and Z8.

They will, not only a higher resolution sensor, but more pro features, as in the difference between a D8x00 and a D7x0.

I have no clue what Nikon will actually do. But I would think that the Z8 will really be a Z7 Mk II.

Nope, Nikon have clearly positioned the Z6 and Z7 as consumer cameras. The Z8 and Z9 will be the two flavours of pro cameras seen in their dSLRS - landscape and sports. They'll only come out when their performance merits it.

michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 14,363
Re: It's a good question

FingerPainter wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

First, let me say that I think Nikon will start using Mark II, Mark III designations. I don't see that they can do otherwise given the Zx model numbering.

There is a good chance this will happen.

So I think it would be really strange for Nikon to come out with a high resolution (60MP) Z8. It would make much more sense to introduce a Z7 MkII with 60MP.

The Z8 will be to the Z6 and Z7 what the D800 was to the D700 and D3X, and then some. (I's say like the D800 was to the D610 and D750 except I think the D800 was introduced first.) It will be a professional model (like the D8x0 line and unlike the D610, D750, D780, Z6 or Z7.

If Nikon were to have a lineup that included Z5, Z6, Z7, Z8, and Z9 (a D6 pro type model) that would be one more in the lineup than they ever had in DSLR.

Think again: Dx, D8x0, D7x0, D6X0 and Df, I can count to five. I expect that if a Z5 comes out, it will be lower end than any Nikon FF dSLR ever was.

If they do that, of which I'm doubtful, they would really need to come up with some differentiation between Z7 and Z8.

They will, not only a higher resolution sensor, but more pro features, as in the difference between a D8x00 and a D7x0.

I have no clue what Nikon will actually do. But I would think that the Z8 will really be a Z7 Mk II.

Nope, Nikon have clearly positioned the Z6 and Z7 as consumer cameras. The Z8 and Z9 will be the two flavours of pro cameras seen in their dSLRS - landscape and sports. They'll only come out when their performance merits it.

There's nothing wrong with your view of what Nikon will be doing with their camera lineup.  I just don't quite agree with it.  First, I don't count the Df.  That's a one-off oddball.

So Nikon's DSLR line-up (full frame) is:

D610 (entry) -> D780 (mid-level "prosumer") -> D850 (high MP "pro") -> D6 (flagship "pro")

What does a Z lineup look like if there is both a Z7 and Z8?

Z5 (entry) -> Z6 (mid-level "prosumer") -> Z7 (high MP "prosumer") -> Z8 (higher MP "pro") -> Z9 (flagship "pro")

It's certainly possible that this will be Nikon's line-up.  But it's an extra model in the line-up in a shrinking market.  I just think the line-up would make more sense if the Z7 MkII was upgraded to be more of a "pro" camera and gained the latest 60MP sensor.  Even the rumored D5 is supposed to have dual card slots.  I expect a Z6 MkII and a Z7 MkII will both have dual slots.  What other features need to be carried over from the D850 to Z?

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Mike Dawson

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ericbowles
ericbowles Contributing Member • Posts: 933
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?
1

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

In many ways the Z7 is fully up with the D850 - including resolution and with ML differences.

In other ways the Z7 is a bit like the D750 with a small buffer and single card slot.

I expect either a Pro model with faster fps, much improved AF, big buffer, twin CFExpress slots, or a 60 MP D850 upgrade with a big buffer.

There are some signs Nikon are following Sony' example of continuing older models such as D750 and D850 at much reduced prices after new cameras are launched - except there is no D850 replacement announced yet.

Time will tell what Nikon launches next - other than as always there will be new products in the future.

I have a similar perspective.

Both the Z7 and Z6 are professional cameras.  Both cameras are excellent but they are used in different ways.

You have the following:

Z6 mirrorless and D780 DSLR - Standard resolution all purpose cameras

Z7 and D850 - High resolution cameras

D6 and Z_ - Full size journalism bodies - standard resolution, grip, dual cards, fast frame rate, big buffer, good video, great AF

D500/550 and Z_ - APS-C action camera - standard resolution, fast frame rate, grip, limitless buffer, great AF for action, crop factor (counterpart to D6/Z_); same size and shape as Z6/Z7.

Nikon will be limiting body changes and changing components.  We're probably looking at two body configurations for DSLR and two for mirrorless.

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FKS
FKS Veteran Member • Posts: 3,120
Re: It's a good question

Highly doubtful. They're not going to go down the Canon nomenclature path.

FingerPainter wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

First, let me say that I think Nikon will start using Mark II, Mark III designations. I don't see that they can do otherwise given the Zx model numbering.

There is a good chance this will happen.

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FingerPainter Veteran Member • Posts: 9,245
Re: It's a good question

michaeladawson wrote:

There's nothing wrong with your view of what Nikon will be doing with their camera lineup. I just don't quite agree with it.

Time will tell.

First, I don't count the Df. That's a one-off oddball.

Yet it does exist.

So Nikon's DSLR line-up (full frame) is:

D610 (entry) -> D780 (mid-level "prosumer") -> D850 (high MP "pro") -> D6 (flagship "pro")

What does a Z lineup look like if there is both a Z7 and Z8?

Z5 (entry) -> Z6 (mid-level "prosumer") -> Z7 (high MP "prosumer") -> Z8 (higher MP "pro") -> Z9 (flagship "pro")

I'd characterize them as

Z5 (lower entry) -> Z6(upper entry) -> Z7 (prosumer) -> Z8 (landscape pro) -> Z9 (sports pro)

What is new is splitting the entry level into two models. They did this with DX cameras, and they have to be prepared to market a sub $1K FF MILC. I expect to see fewer DX MILC lines, to compensate.

The main argument against this view is the great similarity between the Z6 and Z7, except for sensor. This made early release of two models easier. The argument in favour of the view is how they are marketed.

It's certainly possible that this will be Nikon's line-up. But it's an extra model in the line-up in a shrinking market.

We don't know that they will continue to produce both the Z6 and Z7 after introducing a Z5 and a Z8. So we cannot assume they'll have 5 model lines at once, at least not for long.

I just think the line-up would make more sense if the Z7 MkII was upgraded to be more of a "pro" camera

That just doesn't fit with standard market differentiation tactics.

and gained the latest 60MP sensor. Even the rumored D5

Z5?

is supposed to have dual card slots.

Do you think they learned something from the reactions to the D7500, Z6 and Z7?

I expect a Z6 MkII and a Z7 MkII will both have dual slots. What other features need to be carried over from the D850 to Z?

The Nikon pro control interface, which has always been a key differentiator between pro and prosumer models.

FingerPainter Veteran Member • Posts: 9,245
Re: It's a good question

FKS wrote:

Highly doubtful. They're not going to go down the Canon nomenclature path.

FingerPainter wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

First, let me say that I think Nikon will start using Mark II, Mark III designations. I don't see that they can do otherwise given the Zx model numbering.

There is a good chance this will happen.

With only one digit per model line, how will they indicate iterations in that line?

michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 14,363
Re: It's a good question
1

FKS wrote:

Highly doubtful. They're not going to go down the Canon nomenclature path.

I don't see many alternatives based on the naming convention they've introduced with the Z line.  What does the next model of Z6 become?  Z16?  Oh, wait.  Is a Z16 a lower end model compared with the Z50?

I don't really care if they use Mark II, Mk II, or simply II.  But they are going to have to do something like that unless they start following the auto industry and just keep the same name year after year despite model updates.  Maybe they'll call it a Z7 2022.

I think it is telling that Nikon didn't keep a naming convention similar to their DSLR lineup.  Simply substitute Z for D.  The Z6 could have been the Z600, the Z7 the Z700.  And the Z50 would have been a Z5000.  But they didn't do that.

Model names are important as they are one way for a consumer to make sense out of a company's product lineup.

FingerPainter wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

First, let me say that I think Nikon will start using Mark II, Mark III designations. I don't see that they can do otherwise given the Zx model numbering.

There is a good chance this will happen.

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Mike Dawson

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jfriend00 Forum Pro • Posts: 12,853
Re: With rumors of a Z8, where does the Z7 fit in?

I think it's easier to think about this if you forget about product numbers/names and just look at price points as we've already seen many years of how Nikon operates price points.  These are the prices directly from NikonUSA's web-site.  A "few" cameras are "on sale" according to Nikon which slightly distorts the median price for that part of the product line, but I still think this is a useful way to look at things:

First off, I think we can all agree that at some point, there will be a D6 style camera in mirrorless at the $6k+ price point probably whenever Nikon thinks they can beat the D6 in terms of performance.

Then, I think we can agree that Nikon wants to fill out the lower end of the product line with some entry-level DX cameras that are less expensive than the Z50 since mirrorless is supposed to ultimately enable better price performance (so many fewer parts).

So, then if you look at a possible Z8, it could go at the launch price of the D850 ($3299) or at the launch price of the Z7 ($3399).  If it did, then Nikon could keep the Z7 in the product in the $2300-$2600 price range or they could just drop it entirely.  Over time though we've already seen the Z7 drift downwards from $3399 down to $2799 so if that happened to the Z8, there really wouldn't be much pricing room for the Z7 to fit any more unless the Z6 (and it's successor drift down even more).

It seems to be more likely that the Z7 price point gets beefed up with things like dual memory cards, higher fps, faster AF, better video and maybe higher resolution in a future camera at around the same price point that the Z7 started at.   This could either be named a Z8 and the Z7 drops in price some and then eventually fades away or it could just be the Z7-v2 and the original Z7 drops in price some until all inventory is sold and then its gone for good.

I don't personally see a lot of reason for the current Z7 to stay around after a next generation high res mirrorless body comes out from Nikon as they would be relatively close in price and I think most people that wanted a product in that segment would be a little more for the newer version.  It's somewhat analogous to the D810 and D850.  Once the D850 came out, there wasn't a compelling reason for Nikon to keep manufacturing the D810.  If you were attracted to that segment of the market, you were willing to pay more for the D850 or you were shopping used D810 bodies anyway.  The think the same is probably true of the Z7 and it's successor.

Then, lastly, there look like lots more price slots at the low end of mirrorless if Nikon has the tech to hit those lower price points.

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