The trend continues

Started 1 month ago | Discussions
fPrime
fPrime Veteran Member • Posts: 3,152
Re: The trend continues
9

Mister Anders0n wrote:

https://nikonrumors.com/2020/02/07/nikon-q3-financial-results-are-out-revenue-and-profit-substantially-decreased-forecast-remains-unchanged.aspx/

As long as Nikon refuse to build compelling products for its users to upgrade to, I don’t see this trend changing. The D780 improved too little over the D750 and now it appears that the D6 improves too little over the D5.

I sincerely hope that Nikon fix the problems they currently have with the Z cameras in the next product generation because otherwise there really is nowhere for their current DSLR user base to go. Both their mirrorless and updated DSLR’s offerings are just not improved enough over existing cameras to warrant buying into IMHO.

fPrime

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Vincent O'Sullivan Regular Member • Posts: 368
Re: The trend continues
38

fPrime wrote:

The D780 improved too little over the D750 and now it appears that the D6 improves too little over the D5.

I've never understood why people feel they need to replace their camera every new model as it comes out.  They're almost always incremental improvements that are unlikely to make much difference to your results.

A good camera should - easily - last you five to ten years, even in the current era of rapidly changing technology.  Longer, as the technology settles down.

thetwonk Regular Member • Posts: 231
Re: The trend continues
19

IMHO the reason Nikon aren't selling cameras is more to do with sufficiency. The D780 and D850 are amazing cameras capable of truly stunning results. The 2 year product replacement cycle is over as people see no compelling reason to upgrade. I think this is the end of the boom in Digital cameras which was a once in a generation occurrence similar to Film SLR boom of the early eighties. M/L is just a different form factor with its advantages and disadvantages and again is not a compelling move for many Nikon users invested in F mount lenses and / or OVF preference or just cant afford  / justify the outlay on a new system. I have kept my DSLRs for 4 years each and in that time I have gone from 12mp DX to 24mp FX x 2 and finally 45mp FX all DSLR and that's enough for me. As the onetime British pri-minister MacMillan once said some 60 years ago - "you've never had it so good" and in truth we haven't.

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yray
yray Senior Member • Posts: 2,112
Re: The trend continues
5

Vincent O'Sullivan wrote:

fPrime wrote:

The D780 improved too little over the D750 and now it appears that the D6 improves too little over the D5.

I've never understood why people feel they need to replace their camera every new model as it comes out. They're almost always incremental improvements that are unlikely to make much difference to your results.

A good camera should - easily - last you five to ten years, even in the current era of rapidly changing technology. Longer, as the technology settles down.

Technology mostly settled down 8-12 years ago. My most beloved cameras are from that era.

Nikon projected that going forward only enthusiast and professional market will survive. This is a much smaller market than they were accustomed to, and most of these users probably will be mostly in the gear replacement mode, perhaps doing a partial refresh every 5-10 years.

Batdude
Batdude Senior Member • Posts: 4,372
Re: The trend continues
5

Vincent O'Sullivan wrote:

fPrime wrote:

The D780 improved too little over the D750 and now it appears that the D6 improves too little over the D5.

I've never understood why people feel they need to replace their camera every new model as it comes out. They're almost always incremental improvements that are unlikely to make much difference to your results.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in using "old" cameras, I use "old" stuff, but to be honest, I thought cramped up AF points on the center of a VF was old, because it is, it is old technology and useless for a lot of stuff, yet Nikon had the guts to leave the same AF points with this new D780 with no joystick and that's exactly why I never purchased a D750 in the first place.

Because of my shooting style I honestly don't need a D5 AF system nor FPS, nor video, BUT, I do need spread AF points, and from what I keep hearing/reading all these pass years is that the D750 already has pretty darn good AF to begin with. All this "D5 AF in the D780" is just marketing stuff.

And lets not even mention the battery grip thing. Looks like Nikon has a death wish or something.

A good camera should - easily - last you five to ten years, even in the current era of rapidly changing technology. Longer, as the technology settles down.

Yeah sure no problem, but the thing is that within the last five years new technology has arrived. I am not happy with Nikon's Z bodies either so people would tell me to stick with DSLR, so guess what I waited for the D780 and I was actually willing to buy another DSLR, which I had said that I was only going to buy a ML from now on. Well, the D780 is a major let down, to me that is.

Like I said above, I was not expecting or requiring the D750 replacement to have D5/D6 AF, but I was expecting it to have way more spread AF points with a joystick, and battery grip capable with a shutter button.

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Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 18,889
Re: The trend continues
12

fPrime wrote:

Mister Anders0n wrote:

https://nikonrumors.com/2020/02/07/nikon-q3-financial-results-are-out-revenue-and-profit-substantially-decreased-forecast-remains-unchanged.aspx/

As long as Nikon refuse to build compelling products for its users to upgrade to, I don’t see this trend changing. The D780 improved too little over the D750 and now it appears that the D6 improves too little over the D5.

I sincerely hope that Nikon fix the problems they currently have with the Z cameras in the next product generation because otherwise there really is nowhere for their current DSLR user base to go. Both their mirrorless and updated DSLR’s offerings are just not improved enough over existing cameras to warrant buying into IMHO.

A recent quote from Brad Hill "Because of their toxicity and incivility I almost never poke my nose into any photography forums, but I am guessing that right now a lot of negative things are being said about Nikon and the D6 in those forums".

Having tried a D780 (have you?) it is a far better camera than some are assuming without handling the camera.

For perhaps 90% of photographers 90% of the time the Z system is excellent - even ignoring the increased optical performance of Z lenses.

The few that have handled a pre production D6 or are established Nikon Pros seem very optimistic about the D6.

Have you seen a pre production Z6?

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Leonard Shepherd
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fPrime
fPrime Veteran Member • Posts: 3,152
Re: The trend continues
6

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

fPrime wrote:

Mister Anders0n wrote:

https://nikonrumors.com/2020/02/07/nikon-q3-financial-results-are-out-revenue-and-profit-substantially-decreased-forecast-remains-unchanged.aspx/

As long as Nikon refuse to build compelling products for its users to upgrade to, I don’t see this trend changing. The D780 improved too little over the D750 and now it appears that the D6 improves too little over the D5.

I sincerely hope that Nikon fix the problems they currently have with the Z cameras in the next product generation because otherwise there really is nowhere for their current DSLR user base to go. Both their mirrorless and updated DSLR’s offerings are just not improved enough over existing cameras to warrant buying into IMHO.

A recent quote from Brad Hill "Because of their toxicity and incivility I almost never poke my nose into any photography forums, but I am guessing that right now a lot of negative things are being said about Nikon and the D6 in those forums".

Having tried a D780 (have you?) it is a far better camera than some are assuming without handling the camera.

For perhaps 90% of photographers 90% of the time the Z system is excellent - even ignoring the increased optical performance of Z lenses.

The few that have handled a pre production D6 or are established Nikon Pros seem very optimistic about the D6.

Have you seen a pre production Z6?

No one said these cameras don't work or are bad. There's no doubt that both the D6 and D780 will take great photos in the right hands. What is being said is that neither are particularly compelling to upgrade to if one already has a D750 or D5. The view just isn't worth the climb (or price). And that's a huge marketing problem for Nikon.

fPrime

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Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 18,889
Re: The trend continues
14

fPrime wrote:

The view just isn't worth the climb (or price). And that's a huge marketing problem for Nikon.

That may be your opinion.

It is not the opinion of many experienced Nikon shooters I frequent with.

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Leonard Shepherd
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JMD-70 Senior Member • Posts: 2,029
Re: The trend continues
1

fPrime wrote:

Mister Anders0n wrote:

https://nikonrumors.com/2020/02/07/nikon-q3-financial-results-are-out-revenue-and-profit-substantially-decreased-forecast-remains-unchanged.aspx/

As long as Nikon refuse to build compelling products for its users to upgrade to, I don’t see this trend changing. The D780 improved too little over the D750 and now it appears that the D6 improves too little over the D5.

I sincerely hope that Nikon fix the problems they currently have with the Z cameras in the next product generation because otherwise there really is nowhere for their current DSLR user base to go. Both their mirrorless and updated DSLR’s offerings are just not improved enough over existing cameras to warrant buying into IMHO.

fPrime

Perhaps Nikon should have added a SIM card slot in the D780 and the D6 and have the best app designers to create app that would allow for Social Media uploads or Https uploads!

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Mister Anders0n
OP Mister Anders0n Forum Member • Posts: 75
Re: The trend continues
1

fPrime wrote:

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

fPrime wrote:

Mister Anders0n wrote:

https://nikonrumors.com/2020/02/07/nikon-q3-financial-results-are-out-revenue-and-profit-substantially-decreased-forecast-remains-unchanged.aspx/

As long as Nikon refuse to build compelling products for its users to upgrade to, I don’t see this trend changing. The D780 improved too little over the D750 and now it appears that the D6 improves too little over the D5.

I sincerely hope that Nikon fix the problems they currently have with the Z cameras in the next product generation because otherwise there really is nowhere for their current DSLR user base to go. Both their mirrorless and updated DSLR’s offerings are just not improved enough over existing cameras to warrant buying into IMHO.

A recent quote from Brad Hill "Because of their toxicity and incivility I almost never poke my nose into any photography forums, but I am guessing that right now a lot of negative things are being said about Nikon and the D6 in those forums".

Having tried a D780 (have you?) it is a far better camera than some are assuming without handling the camera.

For perhaps 90% of photographers 90% of the time the Z system is excellent - even ignoring the increased optical performance of Z lenses.

The few that have handled a pre production D6 or are established Nikon Pros seem very optimistic about the D6.

Have you seen a pre production Z6?

No one said these cameras don't work or are bad. There's no doubt that both the D6 and D780 will take great photos in the right hands. What is being said is that neither are particularly compelling to upgrade to if one already has a D750 or D5. The view just isn't worth the climb (or price). And that's a huge marketing problem for Nikon.

fPrime

Exactly.  There's no good reason to "upgrade."  Now if you do a lot of video, I could maybe see getting a D780, but for stills, the D750 will produce the same results for way less money.

Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 18,889
Re: The trend continues
8

JMD-70 wrote:

Perhaps Nikon should have added a SIM card slot in the D780 and the D6 and have the best app designers to create app that would allow for Social Media uploads or Https uploads!

Perhaps in the real world relatively few photographers with a camera of D780 ability post any pictures on social medium, almost none post all their pictures on social media, and those that do post some images almost always select and post process their images to provide an image best suited to social media.

Very few top quality images of the calibre a skilled photographer can achieve with a good 24 MP camera seem to be posted on social media direct from a camera.

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Leonard Shepherd
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thetwonk Regular Member • Posts: 231
Re: The trend continues
10

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

fPrime wrote:

Mister Anders0n wrote:

https://nikonrumors.com/2020/02/07/nikon-q3-financial-results-are-out-revenue-and-profit-substantially-decreased-forecast-remains-unchanged.aspx/

As long as Nikon refuse to build compelling products for its users to upgrade to, I don’t see this trend changing. The D780 improved too little over the D750 and now it appears that the D6 improves too little over the D5.

I sincerely hope that Nikon fix the problems they currently have with the Z cameras in the next product generation because otherwise there really is nowhere for their current DSLR user base to go. Both their mirrorless and updated DSLR’s offerings are just not improved enough over existing cameras to warrant buying into IMHO.

I went from D600 to a 750 in 2015 and whilst not a major upgrade in some ways it was worth it for the way it processed NEF files alone. I went to a D850 this year and that is a major upgrade IMHO. I don't need another camera for years now and I will use what money I have in glass and if I can manage it some of those lovely F 1.4 primes jettisoned by the Z migrants.

A recent quote from Brad Hill "Because of their toxicity and incivility I almost never poke my nose into any photography forums, but I am guessing that right now a lot of negative things are being said about Nikon and the D6 in those forums".

Having tried a D780 (have you?) it is a far better camera than some are assuming without handling the camera.

For perhaps 90% of photographers 90% of the time the Z system is excellent - even ignoring the increased optical performance of Z lenses.

Or for 90% of photographers 90% of the time DSLRs are excellent saving 100% of the cost of moving to Z.

The few that have handled a pre production D6 or are established Nikon Pros seem very optimistic about the D6.

Have you seen a pre production Z6?

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T O Shooter Forum Pro • Posts: 10,418
Re: The trend continues
1

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

fPrime wrote:

Mister Anders0n wrote:

https://nikonrumors.com/2020/02/07/nikon-q3-financial-results-are-out-revenue-and-profit-substantially-decreased-forecast-remains-unchanged.aspx/

As long as Nikon refuse to build compelling products for its users to upgrade to, I don’t see this trend changing. The D780 improved too little over the D750 and now it appears that the D6 improves too little over the D5.

I sincerely hope that Nikon fix the problems they currently have with the Z cameras in the next product generation because otherwise there really is nowhere for their current DSLR user base to go. Both their mirrorless and updated DSLR’s offerings are just not improved enough over existing cameras to warrant buying into IMHO.

A recent quote from Brad Hill "Because of their toxicity and incivility I almost never poke my nose into any photography forums, but I am guessing that right now a lot of negative things are being said about Nikon and the D6 in those forums".

Having tried a D780 (have you?) it is a far better camera than some are assuming without handling the camera.

For perhaps 90% of photographers 90% of the time the Z system is excellent - even ignoring the increased optical performance of Z lenses.

The few that have handled a pre production D6 or are established Nikon Pros seem very optimistic about the D6.

Have you seen a pre production Z6?

They're in stores now.

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Toby43 Contributing Member • Posts: 581
Re: The trend continues
1

IfPrime wrote:

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

fPrime wrote:

Mister Anders0n wrote:

https://nikonrumors.com/2020/02/07/nikon-q3-financial-results-are-out-revenue-and-profit-substantially-decreased-forecast-remains-unchanged.aspx/

As long as Nikon refuse to build compelling products for its users to upgrade to, I don’t see this trend changing. The D780 improved too little over the D750 and now it appears that the D6 improves too little over the D5.

I sincerely hope that Nikon fix the problems they currently have with the Z cameras in the next product generation because otherwise there really is nowhere for their current DSLR user base to go. Both their mirrorless and updated DSLR’s offerings are just not improved enough over existing cameras to warrant buying into IMHO.

A recent quote from Brad Hill "Because of their toxicity and incivility I almost never poke my nose into any photography forums, but I am guessing that right now a lot of negative things are being said about Nikon and the D6 in those forums".

Having tried a D780 (have you?) it is a far better camera than some are assuming without handling the camera.

For perhaps 90% of photographers 90% of the time the Z system is excellent - even ignoring the increased optical performance of Z lenses.

The few that have handled a pre production D6 or are established Nikon Pros seem very optimistic about the D6.

Have you seen a pre production Z6?

No one said these cameras don't work or are bad. There's no doubt that both the D6 and D780 will take great photos in the right hands. What is being said is that neither are particularly compelling to upgrade to if one already has a D750 or D5. The view just isn't worth the climb (or price). And that's a huge marketing problem for Nikon.

fPrime

I tend  to agree with this but of course it depends what photography you are doing. Stills, happy with 24mp, tilt screen, good in low light, D750 is what I’m good with. But I do like Nikon’s commitment to the DSLR with optical viewfinder. It reflects its retrofit lens ability. And in this age of deliberate planned obsolescence, I like that.

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Antal I Kozma
Antal I Kozma Veteran Member • Posts: 3,064
Re: The trend continues
4

thetwonk wrote:

IMHO the reason Nikon aren't selling cameras is more to do with sufficiency. The D780 and D850 are amazing cameras capable of truly stunning results. The 2 year product replacement cycle is over as people see no compelling reason to upgrade. I think this is the end of the boom in Digital cameras which was a once in a generation occurrence similar to Film SLR boom of the early eighties. M/L is just a different form factor with its advantages and disadvantages and again is not a compelling move for many Nikon users invested in F mount lenses and / or OVF preference or just cant afford / justify the outlay on a new system. I have kept my DSLRs for 4 years each and in that time I have gone from 12mp DX to 24mp FX x 2 and finally 45mp FX all DSLR and that's enough for me. As the onetime British pri-minister MacMillan once said some 60 years ago - "you've never had it so good" and in truth we haven't.

Very well said. I too believe that we reached some sort of technological saturation point where it almost doesn't matter which decent DSLR a photographer uses. The end results will depend more on the photographer than the camera, being the latest model or a couple of generations older. Same with mirrorless, hype and usability plateaus at one point then after that is "marketing magic" only.

AIK

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Veloster75 Contributing Member • Posts: 916
Re: The trend continues
1

fPrime wrote:

Mister Anders0n wrote:

https://nikonrumors.com/2020/02/07/nikon-q3-financial-results-are-out-revenue-and-profit-substantially-decreased-forecast-remains-unchanged.aspx/

As long as Nikon refuse to build compelling products for its users to upgrade to, I don’t see this trend changing. The D780 improved too little over the D750 and now it appears that the D6 improves too little over the D5.

I sincerely hope that Nikon fix the problems they currently have with the Z cameras in the next product generation because otherwise there really is nowhere for their current DSLR user base to go. Both their mirrorless and updated DSLR’s offerings are just not improved enough over existing cameras to warrant buying into IMHO.

fPrime

Nikon really needs to knock one out of the park with their next Z. I sold my Z7 because the tracking just wasn't there. The next Z must have a Sony a9 like tracking system, dual UHS II slots and they'll be in the ballpark.

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fPrime
fPrime Veteran Member • Posts: 3,152
Re: The trend continues
5

Veloster75 wrote:

fPrime wrote:

Mister Anders0n wrote:

https://nikonrumors.com/2020/02/07/nikon-q3-financial-results-are-out-revenue-and-profit-substantially-decreased-forecast-remains-unchanged.aspx/

As long as Nikon refuse to build compelling products for its users to upgrade to, I don’t see this trend changing. The D780 improved too little over the D750 and now it appears that the D6 improves too little over the D5.

I sincerely hope that Nikon fix the problems they currently have with the Z cameras in the next product generation because otherwise there really is nowhere for their current DSLR user base to go. Both their mirrorless and updated DSLR’s offerings are just not improved enough over existing cameras to warrant buying into IMHO.

fPrime

Nikon really needs to knock one out of the park with their next Z. I sold my Z7 because the tracking just wasn't there. The next Z must have a Sony a9 like tracking system, dual UHS II slots and they'll be in the ballpark.

I agree. I just read the announcement specs for the upcoming Canon R5. It'll have IBIS and dual slots resolving the two major shortcomings of the Canon R. Hopefully with stronger onboard processors it will also reach AF parity with Sony's tracking and Eye-AF.

If Nikon decide not to build a DTZ adapter and thereby orphan their AF-D lenses to manual focus in perpetuity on Z, then those lenses can be manually focused just as well on an R5. I think they'd better throw the kitchen sink into Z to hold onto every F mount user lest they be lost to either Canon or Sony.

fPrime

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Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 18,889
Re: The trend continues

fPrime wrote:

I just read the announcement specs for the upcoming Canon R5. It'll have IBIS and dual slots resolving the two major shortcomings of the Canon R. Hopefully with stronger onboard processors it will also reach AF parity with Sony's tracking and Eye-AF.

What if Nikon announce a pro spec ML specification around July?

What if ML helps demonstrate screwdriver AF lenses, all but a couple optically designed last century, are relatively weak wide open compared to recent F mount AF-s lenses, many of which in turn are not optically as good as the expanding Z lens range?

If you want an ML camera with shorter lens to sensor distance and wider throat launched in 2020 do you also want to use lenses designed 30 years ago - as many screwdriver AF lenses were.

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Leonard Shepherd
In lots of ways good photography is much more about how equipment is used rather than anything else.

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yray
yray Senior Member • Posts: 2,112
Re: The trend continues
3

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

fPrime wrote:

I just read the announcement specs for the upcoming Canon R5. It'll have IBIS and dual slots resolving the two major shortcomings of the Canon R. Hopefully with stronger onboard processors it will also reach AF parity with Sony's tracking and Eye-AF.

What if Nikon announce a pro spec ML specification around July?

What if ML helps demonstrate screwdriver AF lenses, all but a couple optically designed last century, are relatively weak wide open compared to recent F mount AF-s lenses, many of which in turn are not optically as good as the expanding Z lens range?

wide open, very well may be. So shoot an f/1.4 lens at f/2, or an f/2 lens at f/2.5. Maybe even an f/2.8 lens at f/3.5 or f/4. Usually not such a big deal for most practical purposes. Either that or spend a fortune. Where it is not about bragging rights, it is all about cost/benefit.

If you want an ML camera with shorter lens to sensor distance and wider throat launched in 2020 do you also want to use lenses designed 30 years ago - as many screwdriver AF lenses were.

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Leonard Shepherd
In lots of ways good photography is much more about how equipment is used rather than anything else.

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