No wonder Sony did not bother...

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PWPhotography Veteran Member • Posts: 9,700
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
5

HFLM wrote:

Lawn Lends wrote:

ilumo wrote:

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

As in, bothered to produce a bigger upgrade spec on the A9mk2!!

BOth the D6/1dx3 are a let down spec-wise!

I cant blame sony for just doing small updates on it as they probably knew the 1x3/d6 would barely be a upgrade to the previous version of those cameras(which the original A9 already blew away)

And this is why competition matters. We should all want the other team to do well or you just stagnate. I’m excited to see what the R5 brings to the table. Even though I have a lowly a7r4 (compared to r5 specs)

I am excited too. While the specs look great, pricing is the joker in the deck. Nobody knows (maybe even Canon doesn't know) what the initial R5 price will be:

  • If it comes in around $3,500, it will do very very well,
  • between $3,500 and $4,000, it will still do well, unless Sony drops the price of the A7R4 to around $3,000, then it will do okay,
  • over $4,000 it will do okay as long as that price is lowered to around $3,500 around black Friday/Christmas, after the initial adopters are soaked, and, once again as long as Sony doesn't undercut it by cutting the A7R4 to around $3k.

I just need to understand the reasoning. What is the probability for Canon to introduce their flagship model 1dxiii and immediately thereafter introduce a camera which beats it in specs and price easily? I don't think that to happen. I don't think Canon to have a stacked sensor either, so very likely the R5 will come with a lot of footnotes bringing the hype down to sure footage. Fully silent no-black-out shutter + 20fps with CAF and exposure is unlikely in my opinion, for example.

So much hype there. Until now Canon DPAF is far inferior than Sony AI-based real-time AF-C tracking. Simply don't believe R5 can shoot full 40+mp at 20fps in very deep buffer, while its flagship 1Dx III only has 20mp and squeezed to shoot at 16fps. That 20fps may likely only under crop mode or even less amount of pixels with pretty shallow buffer.

However,

I can easily imagine the R5 to compete with the A7iii and likes and provide a very nice upgrade to the EOS R. I can easily imaging the wedding photographers like me being convinced to go with this model. For this it doesn't need to be on a 1dxiii level AF-wise, it just needs to top the 5div clearly (which shouldn't be that difficult, I was disappointed with the 5div, a reason my wife's business switched to Sony). Cameras are all very good nowadays, so the R5, in my opinion, won't break records but will provide Canon users with an excellent model for all-purpose shooting at a similar price to the RIV or 5div at introduction.

Wait and see how its EVF works that likely has severe black out. We simply don't know without detail spec.  I have a grain of salt to believe Canon suddenly acquire very advanced ML technology in a matter of few months.

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PWPhotography Veteran Member • Posts: 9,700
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...

Lawn Lends wrote:

Philnw2 wrote:

DenImage wrote:

Lawn Lends wrote:

DenImage wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

As in, bothered to produce a bigger upgrade spec on the A9mk2!!

BOth the D6/1dx3 are a let down spec-wise!

I cant blame sony for just doing small updates on it as they probably knew the 1x3/d6 would barely be a upgrade to the previous version of those cameras(which the original A9 already blew away)

You must have missed the R5 announcement today.

A7R3-ish resolution

A9 FPS

8K video.

If Sony knew the D6/1DX3 were coming, how didn't they see this, and why didn't they counter it?

(A: They couldn't, so they rushed the A9M2 out to get people to commit before R5 specs hit the street).

Complete unsubstantiated nonsense.

The R5 isn't even out yet, and you'd be extremely naive to think Sony have been resting on their laurels and haven't been holding back until their competitors release something comparable to Sony's current models. I have no doubt Sony have a few newly developed models waiting in the pipeline. They have a history of raining on their competitors parade by releasing newer models around the same time as their competitors.

Den

I really doubt Sony will be out with an A7R5 until mid 2021, so that will give a year for the A7R4 to fight it out with the Canon R5. So perhaps in mid 2021 it will be the Canon R5 vs the Sony R5. The battle of the R5's.

If the Canon R5 is as good as these specs, and it is priced around $3,500, I think there is a good chance for some Sony A7R4 price cuts. Which I am looking forward to.

I hope the Canon is as good as it looks on paper, competition is good for both camps.

I'm still a very happy and satisfied owner of my a7rii which I've owned since 2015. It has 40 megapixels, IBIS, internal 4k recording (with or without crop), Silent Shutter, and EyeAF. It's also light/compact and a bargain in comparison to competing models.

I won't be switching brands unless I see significant improvement over what I already own, and whether those improvements justify the investment. So far I haven't seen anything worth switching to.

Den

Cheers, me too, 5 years on and loving that a7rII. I think another lens instead. Something wide this time.

The new Sigma Art lenses are getting good reviews, something like 14-24mm is pretty good and half the price of the Sony.

That's only beginning.  Believe Sigma is working on 50mm/F1.2 and 85mm/F1.2 Art as they did on the excellent 35/1.2 Art.  E-mount is one of Sigma high priority and the most profitable mount while its L-mount future with Panasonic is uncertain.

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Philnw2 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,665
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
4

PWPhotography wrote:

Lawn Lends wrote:

Philnw2 wrote:

DenImage wrote:

Lawn Lends wrote:

DenImage wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

As in, bothered to produce a bigger upgrade spec on the A9mk2!!

BOth the D6/1dx3 are a let down spec-wise!

I cant blame sony for just doing small updates on it as they probably knew the 1x3/d6 would barely be a upgrade to the previous version of those cameras(which the original A9 already blew away)

You must have missed the R5 announcement today.

A7R3-ish resolution

A9 FPS

8K video.

If Sony knew the D6/1DX3 were coming, how didn't they see this, and why didn't they counter it?

(A: They couldn't, so they rushed the A9M2 out to get people to commit before R5 specs hit the street).

Complete unsubstantiated nonsense.

The R5 isn't even out yet, and you'd be extremely naive to think Sony have been resting on their laurels and haven't been holding back until their competitors release something comparable to Sony's current models. I have no doubt Sony have a few newly developed models waiting in the pipeline. They have a history of raining on their competitors parade by releasing newer models around the same time as their competitors.

Den

I really doubt Sony will be out with an A7R5 until mid 2021, so that will give a year for the A7R4 to fight it out with the Canon R5. So perhaps in mid 2021 it will be the Canon R5 vs the Sony R5. The battle of the R5's.

If the Canon R5 is as good as these specs, and it is priced around $3,500, I think there is a good chance for some Sony A7R4 price cuts. Which I am looking forward to.

I hope the Canon is as good as it looks on paper, competition is good for both camps.

I'm still a very happy and satisfied owner of my a7rii which I've owned since 2015. It has 40 megapixels, IBIS, internal 4k recording (with or without crop), Silent Shutter, and EyeAF. It's also light/compact and a bargain in comparison to competing models.

I won't be switching brands unless I see significant improvement over what I already own, and whether those improvements justify the investment. So far I haven't seen anything worth switching to.

Den

Cheers, me too, 5 years on and loving that a7rII. I think another lens instead. Something wide this time.

The new Sigma Art lenses are getting good reviews, something like 14-24mm is pretty good and half the price of the Sony.

That's only beginning. Believe Sigma is working on 50mm/F1.2 and 85mm/F1.2 Art as they did on the excellent 35/1.2 Art. E-mount is one of Sigma high priority and the most profitable mount while its L-mount future with Panasonic is uncertain.

To have Sigma and Tamron build new lenses for Sony FE mounts shows where they believe the growth opportunities are.

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Phil B

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Trollmannx Veteran Member • Posts: 6,055
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
2

Dan_168 wrote:

ISO 1 Million wrote:

DSLR is a dinosaur that will be extincted in a matter of few years. The only reason Canon and Nikon continue 1Dx III and D6 are because they don't have technology ready as Sony implemented in A9/II. At least Canon if not Nikon as well already announced they will only develop new RF lenses.

I am so glad that I only need to maintain one system, one format for all purposes. I am not envy on persons like you to maintain multiple systems, multiple mounts, one for each purpose. I carried 3 bodies, A7r IV, A7r III and A9 into recent trip withe one set of lenses that can share each other among bodies, that versatility and flexibility you don't have with mixed systems and mounts. Factor/ergo/handling are all personal subjective. As an owner of Canon 1D III over a decade which is basically the same factor/ergo/handling of 1Dx II, I much prefer Sony bodies' factor/ergo/handling. I also use A9 as a landscape camera that something virtually no 1Dx II and D5 owners do to lug as 2nd or 3rd bodies into trips.

If you’re so happy with your Sony gear and have such pity for those poor Nikon and Canon shooters, then why do you have over 9,000 posts and why do you continue to so loudly proclaim how happy you are? Who are you trying to convince? Why seek validation from strangers online?

Some people treat camera gear selection like religion, LOL.

Just get the holy trinity of lenses and you are deep into it! 

sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 16,237
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...

Philnw2 wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

Lawn Lends wrote:

Philnw2 wrote:

DenImage wrote:

Lawn Lends wrote:

DenImage wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

As in, bothered to produce a bigger upgrade spec on the A9mk2!!

BOth the D6/1dx3 are a let down spec-wise!

I cant blame sony for just doing small updates on it as they probably knew the 1x3/d6 would barely be a upgrade to the previous version of those cameras(which the original A9 already blew away)

You must have missed the R5 announcement today.

A7R3-ish resolution

A9 FPS

8K video.

If Sony knew the D6/1DX3 were coming, how didn't they see this, and why didn't they counter it?

(A: They couldn't, so they rushed the A9M2 out to get people to commit before R5 specs hit the street).

Complete unsubstantiated nonsense.

The R5 isn't even out yet, and you'd be extremely naive to think Sony have been resting on their laurels and haven't been holding back until their competitors release something comparable to Sony's current models. I have no doubt Sony have a few newly developed models waiting in the pipeline. They have a history of raining on their competitors parade by releasing newer models around the same time as their competitors.

Den

I really doubt Sony will be out with an A7R5 until mid 2021, so that will give a year for the A7R4 to fight it out with the Canon R5. So perhaps in mid 2021 it will be the Canon R5 vs the Sony R5. The battle of the R5's.

If the Canon R5 is as good as these specs, and it is priced around $3,500, I think there is a good chance for some Sony A7R4 price cuts. Which I am looking forward to.

I hope the Canon is as good as it looks on paper, competition is good for both camps.

I'm still a very happy and satisfied owner of my a7rii which I've owned since 2015. It has 40 megapixels, IBIS, internal 4k recording (with or without crop), Silent Shutter, and EyeAF. It's also light/compact and a bargain in comparison to competing models.

I won't be switching brands unless I see significant improvement over what I already own, and whether those improvements justify the investment. So far I haven't seen anything worth switching to.

Den

Cheers, me too, 5 years on and loving that a7rII. I think another lens instead. Something wide this time.

The new Sigma Art lenses are getting good reviews, something like 14-24mm is pretty good and half the price of the Sony.

That's only beginning. Believe Sigma is working on 50mm/F1.2 and 85mm/F1.2 Art as they did on the excellent 35/1.2 Art. E-mount is one of Sigma high priority and the most profitable mount while its L-mount future with Panasonic is uncertain.

To have Sigma and Tamron build new lenses for Sony FE mounts shows where they believe the growth opportunities are.

Why wouldn't they make RF & Z mount versions of those lenses?

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sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 16,237
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
5

PWPhotography wrote:

Believe Sigma is working on 50mm/F1.2 and 85mm/F1.2 Art as they did on the excellent 35/1.2 Art. E-mount is one of Sigma high priority and the most profitable mount while its L-mount future with Panasonic is uncertain.

You seem keen to believe convenient speculation when you can't find facts to support your views. What makes you "believe" Canon isn't working to port those 1.2 lenses to RF and Z mount? AFAIK they have no exclusivity deal with Sony.... so I "believe" it is only a matter of time before all FF MILCs have access to those lenses. Sigma makes glass for EF-M and even made glass for Pentax and Sony A mount for Christ's sakes.... there's no way they are stopping at Sony and L mount.

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SQLGuy Veteran Member • Posts: 8,573
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...

sportyaccordy wrote:

Philnw2 wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

Lawn Lends wrote:

Philnw2 wrote:

DenImage wrote:

Lawn Lends wrote:

DenImage wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

As in, bothered to produce a bigger upgrade spec on the A9mk2!!

BOth the D6/1dx3 are a let down spec-wise!

I cant blame sony for just doing small updates on it as they probably knew the 1x3/d6 would barely be a upgrade to the previous version of those cameras(which the original A9 already blew away)

You must have missed the R5 announcement today.

A7R3-ish resolution

A9 FPS

8K video.

If Sony knew the D6/1DX3 were coming, how didn't they see this, and why didn't they counter it?

(A: They couldn't, so they rushed the A9M2 out to get people to commit before R5 specs hit the street).

Complete unsubstantiated nonsense.

The R5 isn't even out yet, and you'd be extremely naive to think Sony have been resting on their laurels and haven't been holding back until their competitors release something comparable to Sony's current models. I have no doubt Sony have a few newly developed models waiting in the pipeline. They have a history of raining on their competitors parade by releasing newer models around the same time as their competitors.

Den

I really doubt Sony will be out with an A7R5 until mid 2021, so that will give a year for the A7R4 to fight it out with the Canon R5. So perhaps in mid 2021 it will be the Canon R5 vs the Sony R5. The battle of the R5's.

If the Canon R5 is as good as these specs, and it is priced around $3,500, I think there is a good chance for some Sony A7R4 price cuts. Which I am looking forward to.

I hope the Canon is as good as it looks on paper, competition is good for both camps.

I'm still a very happy and satisfied owner of my a7rii which I've owned since 2015. It has 40 megapixels, IBIS, internal 4k recording (with or without crop), Silent Shutter, and EyeAF. It's also light/compact and a bargain in comparison to competing models.

I won't be switching brands unless I see significant improvement over what I already own, and whether those improvements justify the investment. So far I haven't seen anything worth switching to.

Den

Cheers, me too, 5 years on and loving that a7rII. I think another lens instead. Something wide this time.

The new Sigma Art lenses are getting good reviews, something like 14-24mm is pretty good and half the price of the Sony.

That's only beginning. Believe Sigma is working on 50mm/F1.2 and 85mm/F1.2 Art as they did on the excellent 35/1.2 Art. E-mount is one of Sigma high priority and the most profitable mount while its L-mount future with Panasonic is uncertain.

To have Sigma and Tamron build new lenses for Sony FE mounts shows where they believe the growth opportunities are.

Why wouldn't they make RF & Z mount versions of those lenses?

They will, if they can. Techart's Z mount adapter shows that it's at least reverse engineerable.

Sony is still the second largest shareholder of Tamron.

Sigma also has the L mount alliance and their own FP, with other L mount cameras to come.

In short, we're starting to see a lot more short-registration full frame 3rd party lenses, because there are a lot more short-registration full frame camera lines. It's not just about Sony's market share or potential.

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SilvanBromide Senior Member • Posts: 4,226
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
1

sportyaccordy wrote:

Philnw2 wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

Lawn Lends wrote:

Philnw2 wrote:

DenImage wrote:

Lawn Lends wrote:

DenImage wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

As in, bothered to produce a bigger upgrade spec on the A9mk2!!

BOth the D6/1dx3 are a let down spec-wise!

I cant blame sony for just doing small updates on it as they probably knew the 1x3/d6 would barely be a upgrade to the previous version of those cameras(which the original A9 already blew away)

You must have missed the R5 announcement today.

A7R3-ish resolution

A9 FPS

8K video.

If Sony knew the D6/1DX3 were coming, how didn't they see this, and why didn't they counter it?

(A: They couldn't, so they rushed the A9M2 out to get people to commit before R5 specs hit the street).

Complete unsubstantiated nonsense.

The R5 isn't even out yet, and you'd be extremely naive to think Sony have been resting on their laurels and haven't been holding back until their competitors release something comparable to Sony's current models. I have no doubt Sony have a few newly developed models waiting in the pipeline. They have a history of raining on their competitors parade by releasing newer models around the same time as their competitors.

Den

I really doubt Sony will be out with an A7R5 until mid 2021, so that will give a year for the A7R4 to fight it out with the Canon R5. So perhaps in mid 2021 it will be the Canon R5 vs the Sony R5. The battle of the R5's.

If the Canon R5 is as good as these specs, and it is priced around $3,500, I think there is a good chance for some Sony A7R4 price cuts. Which I am looking forward to.

I hope the Canon is as good as it looks on paper, competition is good for both camps.

I'm still a very happy and satisfied owner of my a7rii which I've owned since 2015. It has 40 megapixels, IBIS, internal 4k recording (with or without crop), Silent Shutter, and EyeAF. It's also light/compact and a bargain in comparison to competing models.

I won't be switching brands unless I see significant improvement over what I already own, and whether those improvements justify the investment. So far I haven't seen anything worth switching to.

Den

Cheers, me too, 5 years on and loving that a7rII. I think another lens instead. Something wide this time.

The new Sigma Art lenses are getting good reviews, something like 14-24mm is pretty good and half the price of the Sony.

That's only beginning. Believe Sigma is working on 50mm/F1.2 and 85mm/F1.2 Art as they did on the excellent 35/1.2 Art. E-mount is one of Sigma high priority and the most profitable mount while its L-mount future with Panasonic is uncertain.

To have Sigma and Tamron build new lenses for Sony FE mounts shows where they believe the growth opportunities are.

Why wouldn't they make RF & Z mount versions of those lenses?

They might - at some point. But the fact they aren't already making them likely means either (or both) of two things:

  1. The lack of an open mount spec from Nikon and Canon makes it a high risk strategy where they would have to rely on reverse engineering and invest undue extra R&D - which will in turn have to be reflected in the pricing.
  2. The demand is not there, and/or the platforms are not mature enough to support a 3rd party ecosystem - in which case they will wait until they decide it is.

Regardless - and whether you'd care to acknowledge it or not - the burgeoning 3rd party offerings for Sony E and the absence, so far, of 3rd party lenses for Z or R means something.

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Paniolo M Forum Member • Posts: 95
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
1

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

As in, bothered to produce a bigger upgrade spec on the A9mk2!!

BOth the D6/1dx3 are a let down spec-wise!

I cant blame sony for just doing small updates on it as they probably knew the 1x3/d6 would barely be a upgrade to the previous version of those cameras(which the original A9 already blew away)

1DXIII > a9 II

Have you ever shot with electronic shutter of fast moving objects and/or under artificial light?

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OP Jonneymendoza2 Senior Member • Posts: 1,043
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
2

Yup I have and it blows the canikon

HFLM Senior Member • Posts: 1,973
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
3

Paniolo M wrote:

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

As in, bothered to produce a bigger upgrade spec on the A9mk2!!

BOth the D6/1dx3 are a let down spec-wise!

I cant blame sony for just doing small updates on it as they probably knew the 1x3/d6 would barely be a upgrade to the previous version of those cameras(which the original A9 already blew away)

1DXIII > a9 II

Have you ever shot with electronic shutter of fast moving objects and/or under artificial light?

The silent shutter of the A9(ii) is fantastic and reason to never go back to DSLRs or else for _me_.

Nevertheless, I am pretty brand agnostic and used Canon and Nikon in the past. I liked Nikon's AF much better than Canon's (comparing D5/1dxii or D850/D750/5div) when I used them at weddings, but realised the potential in DPAF and am interested to see what Canon manages to do in a R5. I think Sony to be still ahead then, since I cannot imagine the R5 to surpass the just introduced 1dxiii or come up with a stacked sensor. Would be a big surprise to catch up to the worlds leader in sensors all of a sudden.

My guess is they have 12fps CAF with tracking and small blackout. But that should be sufficient for most. You rarely need more anyway. It will likely give Canon a nice competitive body. If it surpasses everything however, I might try it

But it shouldn't have a price of 9990$ as depicted here:

https://twitter.com/canonwatch/status/1228999694023634945

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PWPhotography Veteran Member • Posts: 9,700
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...

sportyaccordy wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

Believe Sigma is working on 50mm/F1.2 and 85mm/F1.2 Art as they did on the excellent 35/1.2 Art. E-mount is one of Sigma high priority and the most profitable mount while its L-mount future with Panasonic is uncertain.

You seem keen to believe convenient speculation when you can't find facts to support your views.

Sigma has FE 105/1.4 Art, FE 35/1.2 Art.  Very reasonable speculation that it is working on FE 50/1.2 Art and FE 85/1.2 Art.  You don't want that happening, why?

What makes you "believe" Canon isn't working to port those 1.2 lenses to RF and Z mount? AFAIK they have no exclusivity deal with Sony....

Personally since portrait is not my main area, so I don't care much f1.2 lenses as f1.4 is sufficient in my needs.  You talk lots but yourself have acquired RF F1.2 portrait lenses, which one?

so I "believe" it is only a matter of time before all FF MILCs have access to those lenses. Sigma makes glass for EF-M and even made glass for Pentax and Sony A mount for Christ's sakes.... there's no way they are stopping at Sony and L mount.

It's difficult that Canon and Nikon have either authorized Sigma and Tamron to work on RF and Z mount lenses, or Sigma has to take time and effort to reverse-engineer the mount that no guaranteed in future compatibility as happened to EF and F mounts.  It will take while for Sigma to port Art lenses to RF and Z mounts.

But at least Sigma offers alternative to OEM lenses, as good as but much cheaper.

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sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 16,237
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...

SilvanBromide wrote:

They might - at some point. But the fact they aren't already making them likely means either (or both) of two things:

  1. The lack of an open mount spec from Nikon and Canon makes it a high risk strategy where they would have to rely on reverse engineering and invest undue extra R&D - which will in turn have to be reflected in the pricing.

This is what they've had to do for the dozen or so other mounts they've made lenses for. And it's not like they have to reverse engineer for every lens- they do it once and have access to the line forever.

  1. The demand is not there, and/or the platforms are not mature enough to support a 3rd party ecosystem - in which case they will wait until they decide it is.

I don't see why they wouldn't be trying to crack the protocol regardless. I seriously doubt they will wait until demand is there to get started.

Regardless - and whether you'd care to acknowledge it or not - the burgeoning 3rd party offerings for Sony E and the absence, so far, of 3rd party lenses for Z or R means something.

Yes, I think it means that when a system gets a 4-5 year head start it's going to be more mature than brand new systems. That doesn't mean the new systems are not viable for 3rd party stuff.

Let's not forget that the first non Zeiss AF FE lens was... I want to say the Samyang 50 1.4? Which came out nearly 3 years after the A7 launched. They already have an RF AF lens. Sigma & Tamron's first AF FE lenses came out even later. So Canon RF is already well ahead of where Sony was at this point as far as third party support goes, and I'm sure that will continue for the RF and Z systems.

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sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 16,237
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
2

PWPhotography wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

Believe Sigma is working on 50mm/F1.2 and 85mm/F1.2 Art as they did on the excellent 35/1.2 Art. E-mount is one of Sigma high priority and the most profitable mount while its L-mount future with Panasonic is uncertain.

You seem keen to believe convenient speculation when you can't find facts to support your views.

Sigma has FE 105/1.4 Art, FE 35/1.2 Art. Very reasonable speculation that it is working on FE 50/1.2 Art and FE 85/1.2 Art. You don't want that happening, why?

My contention is that they are only working on those lenses for Sony FE. When- and it's definitely a matter of when, not if- they crack the RF/Z protocols, those 1.2 primes will be made for those mounts as well.

What makes you "believe" Canon isn't working to port those 1.2 lenses to RF and Z mount? AFAIK they have no exclusivity deal with Sony....

Personally since portrait is not my main area, so I don't care much f1.2 lenses as f1.4 is sufficient in my needs. You talk lots but yourself have acquired RF F1.2 portrait lenses, which one?

If F/1.2 lenses aren't your concern why bring them up?

so I "believe" it is only a matter of time before all FF MILCs have access to those lenses. Sigma makes glass for EF-M and even made glass for Pentax and Sony A mount for Christ's sakes.... there's no way they are stopping at Sony and L mount.

It's difficult that Canon and Nikon have either authorized Sigma and Tamron to work on RF and Z mount lenses, or Sigma has to take time and effort to reverse-engineer the mount that no guaranteed in future compatibility as happened to EF and F mounts. It will take while for Sigma to port Art lenses to RF and Z mounts.

But at least Sigma offers alternative to OEM lenses, as good as but much cheaper.

It's a challenge but I think they can do it. For RF mount, at the absolute worst they can just launch them with the adapted EF protocol, then update to the full RF protocol later. But  think they want to get everything 100% out of the gate.

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SQLGuy Veteran Member • Posts: 8,573
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...

sportyaccordy wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

Believe Sigma is working on 50mm/F1.2 and 85mm/F1.2 Art as they did on the excellent 35/1.2 Art. E-mount is one of Sigma high priority and the most profitable mount while its L-mount future with Panasonic is uncertain.

You seem keen to believe convenient speculation when you can't find facts to support your views.

Sigma has FE 105/1.4 Art, FE 35/1.2 Art. Very reasonable speculation that it is working on FE 50/1.2 Art and FE 85/1.2 Art. You don't want that happening, why?

My contention is that they are only working on those lenses for Sony FE. When- and it's definitely a matter of when, not if- they crack the RF/Z protocols, those 1.2 primes will be made for those mounts as well.

Only FE? Not L? I would think L, as their own mount, and part of their consortium, would be pretty important to them, too.

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Lawn Lends
Lawn Lends Senior Member • Posts: 2,162
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...

HFLM wrote:

Lawn Lends wrote:

ilumo wrote:

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

As in, bothered to produce a bigger upgrade spec on the A9mk2!!

BOth the D6/1dx3 are a let down spec-wise!

I cant blame sony for just doing small updates on it as they probably knew the 1x3/d6 would barely be a upgrade to the previous version of those cameras(which the original A9 already blew away)

And this is why competition matters. We should all want the other team to do well or you just stagnate. I’m excited to see what the R5 brings to the table. Even though I have a lowly a7r4 (compared to r5 specs)

I am excited too. While the specs look great, pricing is the joker in the deck. Nobody knows (maybe even Canon doesn't know) what the initial R5 price will be:

  • If it comes in around $3,500, it will do very very well,
  • between $3,500 and $4,000, it will still do well, unless Sony drops the price of the A7R4 to around $3,000, then it will do okay,
  • over $4,000 it will do okay as long as that price is lowered to around $3,500 around black Friday/Christmas, after the initial adopters are soaked, and, once again as long as Sony doesn't undercut it by cutting the A7R4 to around $3k.

I just need to understand the reasoning. What is the probability for Canon to introduce their flagship model 1dxiii and immediately thereafter introduce a camera which beats it in specs and price easily? I don't think that to happen. I don't think Canon to have a stacked sensor either, so very likely the R5 will come with a lot of footnotes bringing the hype down to sure footage. Fully silent no-black-out shutter + 20fps with CAF and exposure is unlikely in my opinion, for example.

However,

I can easily imagine the R5 to compete with the A7iii and likes and provide a very nice upgrade to the EOS R. I can easily imaging the wedding photographers like me being convinced to go with this model. For this it doesn't need to be on a 1dxiii level AF-wise, it just needs to top the 5div clearly (which shouldn't be that difficult, I was disappointed with the 5div, a reason my wife's business switched to Sony). Cameras are all very good nowadays, so the R5, in my opinion, won't break records but will provide Canon users with an excellent model for all-purpose shooting at a similar price to the RIV or 5div at introduction.

Like PWP said, the main differentiation factor will be buffer size.

A lot of good 20 fps is going to do when the buffer is full after a couple of seconds. the R5 will not cannibalize the 1dxiii market since those shooters want to fit lots of images in the buffer. They wont get that with a 45Mp camera.

The advantage in the R5 and 1dxiii is the is through economies of scale for the processor and shutter mechanism. If Canon uses the same processor and shutter mechanism in the R5 that it uses in the 1dxiii, it will save money in the long run -- it doesn't have to spend more money researching a slower processor and worse shutter to differentiate product lines -- and the people shooting the 1dxiii will care more about buffer size (and all the other bells and whistles in it that won't be in the R5) than those shooting the R5. Best of both worlds for Canon -- there is adequate differentiation in product lines to sell both models, and they get economies of scale for major components in both cameras, the processor and shutter mechanism.

What people don't understand is that the Canon cripple hammer costs them money -- it costs money to research and produce products with less capability.

If Canon chooses not to wield its cripple hammer, competitors need to be wary. In the past, Canon could rest on it's laurels because they had a captive market where photographers were held hostage by their EF lens investments. That's pretty much gone with the RF lens introduction and the ability to adapt EF lenses to non-Canon EVF cameras, at least for now.

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SQLGuy Veteran Member • Posts: 8,573
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
1

Lawn Lends wrote:

HFLM wrote:

Lawn Lends wrote:

ilumo wrote:

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

As in, bothered to produce a bigger upgrade spec on the A9mk2!!

BOth the D6/1dx3 are a let down spec-wise!

I cant blame sony for just doing small updates on it as they probably knew the 1x3/d6 would barely be a upgrade to the previous version of those cameras(which the original A9 already blew away)

And this is why competition matters. We should all want the other team to do well or you just stagnate. I’m excited to see what the R5 brings to the table. Even though I have a lowly a7r4 (compared to r5 specs)

I am excited too. While the specs look great, pricing is the joker in the deck. Nobody knows (maybe even Canon doesn't know) what the initial R5 price will be:

  • If it comes in around $3,500, it will do very very well,
  • between $3,500 and $4,000, it will still do well, unless Sony drops the price of the A7R4 to around $3,000, then it will do okay,
  • over $4,000 it will do okay as long as that price is lowered to around $3,500 around black Friday/Christmas, after the initial adopters are soaked, and, once again as long as Sony doesn't undercut it by cutting the A7R4 to around $3k.

I just need to understand the reasoning. What is the probability for Canon to introduce their flagship model 1dxiii and immediately thereafter introduce a camera which beats it in specs and price easily? I don't think that to happen. I don't think Canon to have a stacked sensor either, so very likely the R5 will come with a lot of footnotes bringing the hype down to sure footage. Fully silent no-black-out shutter + 20fps with CAF and exposure is unlikely in my opinion, for example.

However,

I can easily imagine the R5 to compete with the A7iii and likes and provide a very nice upgrade to the EOS R. I can easily imaging the wedding photographers like me being convinced to go with this model. For this it doesn't need to be on a 1dxiii level AF-wise, it just needs to top the 5div clearly (which shouldn't be that difficult, I was disappointed with the 5div, a reason my wife's business switched to Sony). Cameras are all very good nowadays, so the R5, in my opinion, won't break records but will provide Canon users with an excellent model for all-purpose shooting at a similar price to the RIV or 5div at introduction.

Like PWP said, the main differentiation factor will be buffer size.

A lot of good 20 fps is going to do when the buffer is full after a couple of seconds. the R5 will not cannibalize the 1dxiii market since those shooters want to fit lots of images in the buffer. They wont get that with a 45Mp camera.

The advantage in the R5 and 1dxiii is the is through economies of scale for the processor and shutter mechanism. If Canon uses the same processor and shutter mechanism in the R5 that it uses in the 1dxiii, it will save money in the long run -- it doesn't have to spend more money researching a slower processor and worse shutter to differentiate product lines -- and the people shooting the 1dxiii will care more about buffer size (and all the other bells and whistles in it that won't be in the R5) than those shooting the R5. Best of both worlds for Canon -- there is adequate differentiation in product lines to sell both models, and they get economies of scale for major components in both cameras, the processor and shutter mechanism.

What people don't understand is that the Canon cripple hammer costs them money -- it costs money to research and produce products with less capability.

If Canon chooses not to wield its cripple hammer, competitors need to be wary. In the past, Canon could rest on it's laurels because they had a captive market where photographers were held hostage by their EF lens investments. That's pretty much gone with the RF lens introduction and the ability to adapt EF lenses to non-Canon EVF cameras, at least for now.

The more I look at it, the more I think this is Canon's next switch. As I mentioned before, they made a clean, and somewhat brutal, break when going from FD to EF. They released the EOS 1V in 2000, and the 1D in 2001. They did not release any new pro film cameras after the 1V, even though Nikon shipped the F6 in 2004, and Canon doesn't make any film cameras anymore. Unlike Nikon, Canon doesn't seem to have much nostalgia.

I think this is going to be a $4500 camera that is for Canon now what the 5D Mark I was for Canon in 2005. I don't think they're very concerned about undermining the 1DXIII. For sports shooters, the lack of RF lenses, and the better performance of EF lenses on the EF bodies, will make the 1DX line the only choice for a little while longer.

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sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 16,237
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...

SQLGuy wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

Believe Sigma is working on 50mm/F1.2 and 85mm/F1.2 Art as they did on the excellent 35/1.2 Art. E-mount is one of Sigma high priority and the most profitable mount while its L-mount future with Panasonic is uncertain.

You seem keen to believe convenient speculation when you can't find facts to support your views.

Sigma has FE 105/1.4 Art, FE 35/1.2 Art. Very reasonable speculation that it is working on FE 50/1.2 Art and FE 85/1.2 Art. You don't want that happening, why?

My contention is that they are only working on those lenses for Sony FE. When- and it's definitely a matter of when, not if- they crack the RF/Z protocols, those 1.2 primes will be made for those mounts as well.

Only FE? Not L? I would think L, as their own mount, and part of their consortium, would be pretty important to them, too.

They are definitely working on L too. L is the "priority", but I see that being about as viable as the last Sigma mount. They are going to push those lens designs to every mount they can sell to.

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PWPhotography Veteran Member • Posts: 9,700
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
2

sportyaccordy wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

Believe Sigma is working on 50mm/F1.2 and 85mm/F1.2 Art as they did on the excellent 35/1.2 Art. E-mount is one of Sigma high priority and the most profitable mount while its L-mount future with Panasonic is uncertain.

You seem keen to believe convenient speculation when you can't find facts to support your views.

Sigma has FE 105/1.4 Art, FE 35/1.2 Art. Very reasonable speculation that it is working on FE 50/1.2 Art and FE 85/1.2 Art. You don't want that happening, why?

My contention is that they are only working on those lenses for Sony FE. When- and it's definitely a matter of when, not if- they crack the RF/Z protocols, those 1.2 primes will be made for those mounts as well.

But until now E-mount is the most profitable area for Sigma. Maybe if RF/Z will take off (hope so), then Sigma will find a great effort to reverse-engineer them which not easy and need lots of R&D $$$$$$$.

What makes you "believe" Canon isn't working to port those 1.2 lenses to RF and Z mount? AFAIK they have no exclusivity deal with Sony....

Personally since portrait is not my main area, so I don't care much f1.2 lenses as f1.4 is sufficient in my needs. You talk lots but yourself have acquired RF F1.2 portrait lenses, which one?

If F/1.2 lenses aren't your concern why bring them up?

Just curiosity why you are so raving about if yourself no plan to acquire them any time soon But Sigma and Sony will answer the challenge and will deliver those fast f1.2 portrait lenses on E-mount, no doubt about. Sigma just delivers FE 35/1.2 Art and reasonably believe they are working on 50/1.2 and 85/1.2 Art. We all hope they succeed, right?

Until then you can get Sigma FE 35/1.2 Art at $1500 and will have discount a few months later. How much for RF 35/1.2L? Oh, only in rumor and guess will be very expensive

You can get Sigma FE 24-70/2.8 Art at $1100 while RF 24-70L/2.8 IS costs whopping $2300, more than double

Sigma will announce FE 70-200/2.8 OS Art soon. And then there is Tamron FE 70-180/2.8 is coming. I will be glad if you like Canon choices

so I "believe" it is only a matter of time before all FF MILCs have access to those lenses. Sigma makes glass for EF-M and even made glass for Pentax and Sony A mount for Christ's sakes.... there's no way they are stopping at Sony and L mount.

It's difficult that Canon and Nikon have either authorized Sigma and Tamron to work on RF and Z mount lenses, or Sigma has to take time and effort to reverse-engineer the mount that no guaranteed in future compatibility as happened to EF and F mounts. It will take while for Sigma to port Art lenses to RF and Z mounts.

But at least Sigma offers alternative to OEM lenses, as good as but much cheaper.

It's a challenge but I think they can do it. For RF mount, at the absolute worst they can just launch them with the adapted EF protocol, then update to the full RF protocol later. But think they want to get everything 100% out of the gate.

Lots of wishful thinking. Adapted lenses never an ideal solution but only temporary otherwise never can match native lens AF-C tracking performance including eye-AF.

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SQLGuy Veteran Member • Posts: 8,573
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...

sportyaccordy wrote:

SQLGuy wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

Believe Sigma is working on 50mm/F1.2 and 85mm/F1.2 Art as they did on the excellent 35/1.2 Art. E-mount is one of Sigma high priority and the most profitable mount while its L-mount future with Panasonic is uncertain.

You seem keen to believe convenient speculation when you can't find facts to support your views.

Sigma has FE 105/1.4 Art, FE 35/1.2 Art. Very reasonable speculation that it is working on FE 50/1.2 Art and FE 85/1.2 Art. You don't want that happening, why?

My contention is that they are only working on those lenses for Sony FE. When- and it's definitely a matter of when, not if- they crack the RF/Z protocols, those 1.2 primes will be made for those mounts as well.

Only FE? Not L? I would think L, as their own mount, and part of their consortium, would be pretty important to them, too.

They are definitely working on L too. L is the "priority", but I see that being about as viable as the last Sigma mount. They are going to push those lens designs to every mount they can sell to.

Really? Between Leica and Panasonic you don't see L doing any better than SA? Seems like Panasonic is already doing pretty well with their S1 lineup.

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