No wonder Sony did not bother...

Started 2 weeks ago | Discussions
Jonneymendoza2 Senior Member • Posts: 1,043
No wonder Sony did not bother...
17

As in, bothered to produce a bigger upgrade spec on the A9mk2!!

BOth the D6/1dx3 are a let down spec-wise!

I cant blame sony for just doing small updates on it as they probably knew the 1x3/d6 would barely be a upgrade to the previous version of those cameras(which the original A9 already blew away)

Sony a9
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ilumo Regular Member • Posts: 158
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
9

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

As in, bothered to produce a bigger upgrade spec on the A9mk2!!

BOth the D6/1dx3 are a let down spec-wise!

I cant blame sony for just doing small updates on it as they probably knew the 1x3/d6 would barely be a upgrade to the previous version of those cameras(which the original A9 already blew away)

And this is why competition matters. We should all want the other team to do well or you just stagnate. I’m excited to see what the R5 brings to the table. Even though I have a lowly a7r4 (compared to r5 specs)

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SQLGuy Veteran Member • Posts: 8,357
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...

I wouldn't say that. The approach is different. I think both companies are mainly thinking about how best to transition to mirrorless. In the meantime, for pro sports shooters, Canon is trying to tweak the 1D to address A9 strengths while Nikon seems to have gone full legacy (D)SLR in their approach. Nikon did improve their silent shooting option, but it still looks to be a compromise option and not a preferred shooting mode.

For their users this will be a worthwhile upgrade. I don't think they'll attract any new customers with it, though, but that was probably not an objective.

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OP Jonneymendoza2 Senior Member • Posts: 1,043
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
2

Honestsly why did canikon not go full mirrrorless and just tell those old school dslr sports shooters to just grab the adapters to adapt there super tele lenses?

the 1dx3 and d6 should have been mirrorless cameras from the get go

The Davinator
The Davinator Forum Pro • Posts: 23,113
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
30

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

Honestsly why did canikon not go full mirrrorless and just tell those old school dslr sports shooters to just grab the adapters to adapt there super tele lenses?

the 1dx3 and d6 should have been mirrorless cameras from the get go

Why?  Because the target market for that gear does not want it.

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OP Jonneymendoza2 Senior Member • Posts: 1,043
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
4

The Davinator wrote:

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

Honestsly why did canikon not go full mirrrorless and just tell those old school dslr sports shooters to just grab the adapters to adapt there super tele lenses?

the 1dx3 and d6 should have been mirrorless cameras from the get go

Why? Because the target market for that gear does not want it.

more like they are scared of change

SQLGuy Veteran Member • Posts: 8,357
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
1

I don't think either company yet has a sensor that can compete with the A9/A9II. I do think they (and even Sony) could achieve very competitive performance with their adapters and adapted lenses, but with Nikon and Canon's current level of sensor-based AF, they could not deliver a mirrorless flagship that would even be close in sports shooting performance to their current DLSRs.

Maybe Nikon can buy the A9 sensor. I'm sure Canon is working diligently to achieve something similar to what the stacked sensor can provide. Sounds like they're getting close with the 1Dx3 sensor.

I would bet that 2024 Olympics will be all-mirrorless, though.

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COtoNY Regular Member • Posts: 108
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
7

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

The Davinator wrote:

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

Honestsly why did canikon not go full mirrrorless and just tell those old school dslr sports shooters to just grab the adapters to adapt there super tele lenses?

the 1dx3 and d6 should have been mirrorless cameras from the get go

Why? Because the target market for that gear does not want it.

more like they are scared of change

I don't think they are scared of change. It doesn't make economic sense for them to change yet - many of their customers have $$$$ invested in legacy F and EF mount glass, particularly for sports shooters.

A big complaint for Sony E mount (until recently) was no long glass for sports shooters, like the 400 and 600. If Canon and Nikon released full mirrorless versions of the 1DX3 and D6, they wouldn't have the glass to go with the cameras which is a big concern ahead of the Olympics.

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sybersitizen Forum Pro • Posts: 15,222
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
41

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

The Davinator wrote:

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

Honestsly why did canikon not go full mirrrorless and just tell those old school dslr sports shooters to just grab the adapters to adapt there super tele lenses?

the 1dx3 and d6 should have been mirrorless cameras from the get go

Why? Because the target market for that gear does not want it.

more like they are scared of change

I''m not sure you understand the ramifications of forcing change on people.

Back in 2010, Sony alienated a large percentage of A-mount users by abandoning DSLRs and moving to SLT models only. 2010 also marked the introduction of E-mount. Both of those moves were seen as acceptable risks because Sony was simply failing in the attempt to directly compete with Canon and Nikon in the DSLR arena, and the new tech was a way to move to a different playing field where Sony could gain a lead.

In more recent years, Sony further alienated a large percentage of users by effectively abandoning the A-mount system while directing almost all development to just the E-mount system. The A-to-E-mount adapters provided by Sony have never offered the same capabilities that are available with native E-mount lenses, and the gap between adapted operation and native operation keeps growing. The Sony adapters are basically a dried out bone that was thrown to the A-mount community.

In addition to marginalizing those who might have their own reasons for preferring DSLRs, or SLTs, it costs users money when they are pushed by a manufacturer into a new technology. Because of all this, Sony actually lost customers to other manufacturers for years, and only lately enjoyed an influx of customers who either truly prefer mirrorless cameras or just capitulated and had the financial resources to pony up and reluctantly move to E-mount.

Canon and Nikon have both built an enormous customer base of DSLR users, to the extent that Sony never had in the first place. The strategy of those companies going forward cannot be the same bridge burning strategy that Sony employed. They have to move more carefully.

Lan Senior Member • Posts: 1,437
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
6

sybersitizen wrote:

Canon and Nikon have both built an enormous customer base of DSLR users, to the extent that Sony never had in the first place. The strategy of those companies going forward cannot be the same bridge burning strategy that Sony employed. They have to move more carefully.

To be fair Canon killed FD with EF, and it looks like they've killed EF-M with RF - or if they haven't their migration strategy is exceedingly opaque

Zacarias New Member • Posts: 19
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
6

The Davinator wrote:

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

Honestsly why did canikon not go full mirrrorless and just tell those old school dslr sports shooters to just grab the adapters to adapt there super tele lenses?

the 1dx3 and d6 should have been mirrorless cameras from the get go

Why? Because the target market for that gear does not want it.

Exactly. No everyone is living in a mirrorless world...yet

MILC man Senior Member • Posts: 3,738
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
2

agree with all that, what is the point of 20fps liveview, when the sensor readout speed is too slow to use it for sports, and there isn't any evf.

i would hope that most people who are serious about a $6500 camera will realize that, canon should know better than to try and fool the target sports market with specs that aren't usable in real-world sports shooting.

canon couldn't make a real sports milc because they don't have the eng/fab capability to make a stacked sensor.

Tim O'Connor
Tim O'Connor Veteran Member • Posts: 5,484
1DX3 is impressive...
10

Kind of agree that the D6 is underwhelming, but the 1DX3 looks pretty impressive to me...this will keep the target market on board, so Canon did a great job in my opinion.

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DenImage Senior Member • Posts: 3,173
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
4

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

As in, bothered to produce a bigger upgrade spec on the A9mk2!!

BOth the D6/1dx3 are a let down spec-wise!

I cant blame sony for just doing small updates on it as they probably knew the 1x3/d6 would barely be a upgrade to the previous version of those cameras(which the original A9 already blew away)

The Nikon D6 is definitely a disappointment, but the Canon 1dx3 looks pretty good to me.

Personally, Canon have produced some excellent RF lenses as well, and I hope their new mirrorless bodies will be big improvements over the EOS-R.

Sony needs some fresh and healthy competition.

Den

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PWPhotography Veteran Member • Posts: 9,325
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
2

SQLGuy wrote:

I don't think either company yet has a sensor that can compete with the A9/A9II. I do think they (and even Sony) could achieve very competitive performance with their adapters and adapted lenses, but with Nikon and Canon's current level of sensor-based AF, they could not deliver a mirrorless flagship that would even be close in sports shooting performance to their current DLSRs.

Maybe Nikon can buy the A9 sensor. I'm sure Canon is working diligently to achieve something similar to what the stacked sensor can provide. Sounds like they're getting close with the 1Dx3 sensor.

I would bet that 2024 Olympics will be all-mirrorless, though.

Agreed Canon and Nikon don't have ML technology can compete to A9/A9 II yet.   Their owners still have to keep two systems/formats - one DSLR for the best performance in sport/action/wildlife and another ML for everything else.   Glad there is only one system and one format in Sony E-mount for all purposes.

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The Davinator
The Davinator Forum Pro • Posts: 23,113
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
13

SQLGuy wrote:

I don't think either company yet has a sensor that can compete with the A9/A9II. I do think they (and even Sony) could achieve very competitive performance with their adapters and adapted lenses, but with Nikon and Canon's current level of sensor-based AF, they could not deliver a mirrorless flagship that would even be close in sports shooting performance to their current DLSRs.

Maybe Nikon can buy the A9 sensor. I'm sure Canon is working diligently to achieve something similar to what the stacked sensor can provide. Sounds like they're getting close with the 1Dx3 sensor.

I would bet that 2024 Olympics will be all-mirrorless, though.

It appears working pros don't care.  They have the tools that get the job done...and regardless of sensor, the a9 is just not of interest to them.  I am curious to see what the next pro iteration looks like from Canon and Nikon.  For now, I'll stick with my F5 😜...but I may add a D5 for fun.

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dan_darkroom Regular Member • Posts: 274
Did you actually read the details?
2

Did you actually read the details?

I think the dual size JPG function is very useful when time matters. GPS is nice. I recall also that with Nikon one can set EXIF data for manual lenses.

Sony's strong point for me is that they are cheap, that's important too.

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Dan_168 Veteran Member • Posts: 8,892
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
12

The Davinator wrote:

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

Honestsly why did canikon not go full mirrrorless and just tell those old school dslr sports shooters to just grab the adapters to adapt there super tele lenses?

the 1dx3 and d6 should have been mirrorless cameras from the get go

Why? Because the target market for that gear does not want it.

Exactly, as a current 1Dx and A7R2 user, I upgrade my 4 year old 7R2 to 7R4 just last week mainly for backpacking/hiking/landscape, still don't quite like the body ergonomic even it's already bigger with few more buttons and joy stick controller, but there is no better sensor elsewhere for the target application i am using it for, the 7R4 + few Loxia and Voigtlander really makes a killer backpacking landscape tool, so I will just use it.

On the sport camera side, I am not interested in a9 after playing with it for few weeks, and most likely will replace my old 1Dx with the 1DxIII, I really happy they didn't abandon we DSLR people, I've been thru 6 or 7  1- series in the last 25 years from the film EOS 1VHS to my first APSC DSLR 1D MK II to two 16MP FF 1DSII back in 2004 all the way to this day still shooting with a pair of 1-series bodies for event and sports, but I know it's just matter of time, this will probably be the last 1Dx, but as long as they keep the same form factor/ergo/handling of the 1Dx body and don't make it small like A9 , mirror or mirrorless I am fine with it, i don't need 20 FPS but really enjoying the OVF so I am perfect fine with what they have now. I am in love with all the RF lenses any way, so if they bring out a 1Dx mirrorless, I will probably jump on it right away too.

SQLGuy Veteran Member • Posts: 8,357
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
4

The Davinator wrote:

SQLGuy wrote:

I don't think either company yet has a sensor that can compete with the A9/A9II. I do think they (and even Sony) could achieve very competitive performance with their adapters and adapted lenses, but with Nikon and Canon's current level of sensor-based AF, they could not deliver a mirrorless flagship that would even be close in sports shooting performance to their current DLSRs.

Maybe Nikon can buy the A9 sensor. I'm sure Canon is working diligently to achieve something similar to what the stacked sensor can provide. Sounds like they're getting close with the 1Dx3 sensor.

I would bet that 2024 Olympics will be all-mirrorless, though.

It appears working pros don't care. They have the tools that get the job done...and regardless of sensor, the a9 is just not of interest to them. I am curious to see what the next pro iteration looks like from Canon and Nikon. For now, I'll stick with my F5 😜...but I may add a D5 for fun.

What do you base this statement on? And what does the previous generation, 25 year old, Nikon film camera have to do with this conversation?

I saw a number of A9s in the hands of Superbowl photographers. Are you saying Sony isn't selling A9s to "working photographers" at all? I don't think that's true, but, other than ones I see on TV in obvious actual use by working photographers at sporting events, I don't have any well to tell for sure.

I don't think Sony expected pros with tens of thousands of dollars invested in their current gear to just wholesale switch. I do think they expect those shooting very fast action, with high competition for fast submission (e.g. Olympics), or in environments where silence is a big plus (e.g. pro golf), to start looking at whether their current tools really do get the job done well enough, or whether an A9 could give them an extra edge.

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PWPhotography Veteran Member • Posts: 9,325
Re: No wonder Sony did not bother...
6

Dan_168 wrote:

The Davinator wrote:

Jonneymendoza2 wrote:

Honestsly why did canikon not go full mirrrorless and just tell those old school dslr sports shooters to just grab the adapters to adapt there super tele lenses?

the 1dx3 and d6 should have been mirrorless cameras from the get go

Why? Because the target market for that gear does not want it.

Exactly, as a current 1Dx and A7R2 user, I upgrade my 4 year old 7R2 to 7R4 just last week mainly for backpacking/hiking/landscape, still don't quite like the body ergonomic even it's already bigger with few more buttons and joy stick controller, but there is no better sensor elsewhere for the target application i am using it for, the 7R4 + few Loxia and Voigtlander really makes a killer backpacking landscape tool, so I will just use it.

Really you want every camera body as big as heavy as 1Dx and Dx series? You will know very clearly if need to lug 2 or even 3 bodies in hiking.  You are the only one I have read in entire DPR forums still want ML to be big/heavy as 1Dx/Dx format.  Good luck to count on Canon to deliver such 1Dx-format ML in future.

On the sport camera side, I am not interested in a9 after playing with it for few weeks, and most likely will replace my old 1Dx with the 1DxIII, I really happy they didn't abandon we DSLR people, I've been thru 6 or 7 1- series in the last 25 years from the film EOS 1VHS to my first APSC DSLR 1D MK II to two 16MP FF 1DSII back in 2004 all the way to this day still shooting with a pair of 1-series bodies for event and sports, but I know it's just matter of time, this will probably be the last 1Dx, but as long as they keep the same form factor/ergo/handling of the 1Dx body and don't make it small like A9 , mirror or mirrorless I am fine with it, i don't need 20 FPS but really enjoying the OVF so I am perfect fine with what they have now. I am in love with all the RF lenses any way, so if they bring out a 1Dx mirrorless, I will probably jump on it right away too.

DSLR is a dinosaur that will be extincted in a matter of few years. The only reason Canon and Nikon continue 1Dx III and D6 are because they don't have technology ready as Sony implemented in A9/II. At least Canon if not Nikon as well already announced they will only develop new RF lenses.

I am so glad that I only need to maintain one system, one format for all purposes. I am not envy on persons like you to maintain multiple systems, multiple mounts, one for each purpose. I carried 3 bodies, A7r IV, A7r III and A9 into recent trip withe one set of lenses that can share each other among bodies, that versatility and flexibility you don't have with mixed systems and mounts. Factor/ergo/handling are all personal subjective. As an owner of Canon 1D III over a decade which is basically the same factor/ergo/handling of 1Dx II, I much prefer Sony bodies' factor/ergo/handling. I also use A9 as a landscape camera that something virtually no 1Dx II and D5 owners do to lug as 2nd or 3rd bodies into trips.

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