HD PENTAX-D FA 70-210mm F4 ED SDM WR now official

Started Jan 22, 2020 | Discussions
OP (unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,206
Re: HD PENTAX-D FA 70-210mm F4 ED SDM WR now official
2

KentG wrote:

I noticed the electronic diaphragm won't work on cameras before the K-3 also. I don't know if that means lenses in the KAF4 mount can't be used by earlier camera bodies. Of course its made for FF and it works with both the K-1 and K-1 II (w/firmware update in the K-1 and some other bodies). So if you have a K-5/5 II/5 IIs you better have the 60-250 in this range because this lens won't work on it.

This is true.  It is sad Ricoh never extended KAF4 support to the K-5 II.

Yet if you are running such an old body, updating to a K-3, K-3 II, or KP could be an improvement.  And they are going for cheap second hand these days! (esp K-3)

egk4260 Contributing Member • Posts: 776
Re: Tamron
2

I don’t know how many “Pentax” coatings are actually Hoya creations, just that the Ricoh HD coating known as Aerobright II showed up about the same time the patent for the Hoya product of that description was granted to Ricoh. My guess is that Hoya had that coating in common use on glass they produced for multiple lens manufacturers in the several year interval between patent applications and licensing of Pentax name and transfer of relevant patents to Ricoh.

I find no other Ricoh coating patents that so precisely fit the time frame or description.

Mistral75
Mistral75 Contributing Member • Posts: 906
Re: I don't understand 70-210/4 … at all
1

MightyMike wrote:

Mistral75 wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Mark Ransom wrote:

I can only surmise that the 60-250 was disqualified as a starting point for a new lens. Perhaps because it relied on the old unreliable SDM focus motor. Perhaps because the optical path would need to be redesigned from scratch to be fully FF compatible. Perhaps because Pentax didn't have the personnel to devote to the project. There are a million possible reasons and all we can do is speculate.

A new focus motor likely wouldn't be a big deal to implement, enlarging and tweaking some of the optics could also have been done, then give it a new body. The only problem I see is that the 60-250 is a good 200g heavier than the 70-210.

But that means making a completely new lens.

I suspect the most difficult thing in making a new lens is to make some profit out of it.

Alex

I see it more likely as a 25% redesign where they could still use a lot of the existing part readily being made.

That (e.g. 'enlarging and tweaking some of the optics') simply just can't be done that easily. It's optics, not the facelift of a car at its commercial half-life.

Have you done any optical design? have you modified any existing lenses in optics programs? I have! (...) Heck give me the patent for the 60-250 and I'll play with it, however I'm likely not skilled enough to make a perfectly viable alteration.

Be my guest!

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7489452.pdf

Joseph Tainter Forum Pro • Posts: 11,396
Re: HD PENTAX-D FA 70-210mm F4 ED SDM WR now official
4

MacOli wrote:

Way too expensive for a rebadged, "dumbed" down Tamron lens, with a probable 20% chance of a having decentering defects when you order one.

You are correct that many Pentax lenses--more than 20% in my experience--have optical decentering. Pentax has very poor quality control, and Ricoh seems to have done nothing to correct this. I do, however, have the DFA 15-30 and 24-70, both manufactured by Tamron in Japan. They are perfect. I suspect the DFA 70-210 will also be manufactured by Tamron in Japan. Let's hope so.

Joe

MightyMike Forum Pro • Posts: 40,698
Re: I don't understand 70-210/4 … at all

Mistral75 wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Mistral75 wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Mark Ransom wrote:

I can only surmise that the 60-250 was disqualified as a starting point for a new lens. Perhaps because it relied on the old unreliable SDM focus motor. Perhaps because the optical path would need to be redesigned from scratch to be fully FF compatible. Perhaps because Pentax didn't have the personnel to devote to the project. There are a million possible reasons and all we can do is speculate.

A new focus motor likely wouldn't be a big deal to implement, enlarging and tweaking some of the optics could also have been done, then give it a new body. The only problem I see is that the 60-250 is a good 200g heavier than the 70-210.

But that means making a completely new lens.

I suspect the most difficult thing in making a new lens is to make some profit out of it.

Alex

I see it more likely as a 25% redesign where they could still use a lot of the existing part readily being made.

That (e.g. 'enlarging and tweaking some of the optics') simply just can't be done that easily. It's optics, not the facelift of a car at its commercial half-life.

Have you done any optical design? have you modified any existing lenses in optics programs? I have! (...) Heck give me the patent for the 60-250 and I'll play with it, however I'm likely not skilled enough to make a perfectly viable alteration.

Be my guest!

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7489452.pdf

Sweet, I'll have to figure out which variant it is and combine a couple lenses together as I'm too cheap to upgrade from my free optics program to a full copy but I'll certainly have fun playing with it.

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Mike from Canada
"I am not a great photographer! God is a great creator! All I do is capture His creation with the tools He has provided me."
'I like to think so far outside the box that it would require a telephoto lens just to see the box!' ~ 'My Quote :)'
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MightyMike Forum Pro • Posts: 40,698
Re: I don't understand 70-210/4 … at all

MightyMike wrote:

Mistral75 wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Have you done any optical design? have you modified any existing lenses in optics programs? I have! (...) Heck give me the patent for the 60-250 and I'll play with it, however I'm likely not skilled enough to make a perfectly viable alteration.

Be my guest!

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7489452.pdf

Sweet, I'll have to figure out which variant it is and combine a couple lenses together as I'm too cheap to upgrade from my free optics program to a full copy but I'll certainly have fun playing with it.

Bad news, none of the diagrams in the patent match the published diagram, I could pick a random diagram and play with it but it won't be the same as the marketed version. Assuming of course the market diagram is correct.

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Mike from Canada
"I am not a great photographer! God is a great creator! All I do is capture His creation with the tools He has provided me."
'I like to think so far outside the box that it would require a telephoto lens just to see the box!' ~ 'My Quote :)'
http://www.michaelfastphotography.com/galleries/VP-BDI_3a.jpg
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MightyMike Forum Pro • Posts: 40,698
Very Interesting! The 60-250mm was actually designed for FF
1

MightyMike wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Mistral75 wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Have you done any optical design? have you modified any existing lenses in optics programs? I have! (...) Heck give me the patent for the 60-250 and I'll play with it, however I'm likely not skilled enough to make a perfectly viable alteration.

Be my guest!

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7489452.pdf

Sweet, I'll have to figure out which variant it is and combine a couple lenses together as I'm too cheap to upgrade from my free optics program to a full copy but I'll certainly have fun playing with it.

Bad news, none of the diagrams in the patent match the published diagram, I could pick a random diagram and play with it but it won't be the same as the marketed version. Assuming of course the market diagram is correct.

Have a close look at the patent, for every variant of the 60-250 as seen in the patent the Lateral Chromatic Aberrations,  Astigmatism and Distortion is charted to a half image circle of 21.64mm making the actual image circle of the design 43.28mm which is a FF image circle. This would mean the lens was designed for FF from the start however it certainly performs better cropped to APS-C and Pentax could have decided that they're better off with a new lens in that category than one that isn't performing as premiumly at FF as they'd want.

The only other possibility is that the patent you provided actually shows they already tweaked the lens for FF and there is another patent out there for the APS-C version of the lens, however the dates on the patent seem to suggest this is the APS-C version which was designed to cover the FF image circle.

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Mike from Canada
"I am not a great photographer! God is a great creator! All I do is capture His creation with the tools He has provided me."
'I like to think so far outside the box that it would require a telephoto lens just to see the box!' ~ 'My Quote :)'
http://www.michaelfastphotography.com/galleries/VP-BDI_3a.jpg
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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 11,808
Re: Tamron
1

egk4260 wrote:

I don’t know how many “Pentax” coatings are actually Hoya creations, just that the Ricoh HD coating known as Aerobright II

Wait. We cannot establish anything if we're not precise, don't you think?
Aero Bright Coating is not HD. ABC is a "classic" nano-coating, the best but also fragile. HD is almost as good, and more resilient.

Alex

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"When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say." - George R.R. Martin, A Clash of Kings

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 11,808
Re: I don't understand 70-210/4 … at all

Mistral75 wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Mistral75 wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Mark Ransom wrote:

I can only surmise that the 60-250 was disqualified as a starting point for a new lens. Perhaps because it relied on the old unreliable SDM focus motor. Perhaps because the optical path would need to be redesigned from scratch to be fully FF compatible. Perhaps because Pentax didn't have the personnel to devote to the project. There are a million possible reasons and all we can do is speculate.

A new focus motor likely wouldn't be a big deal to implement, enlarging and tweaking some of the optics could also have been done, then give it a new body. The only problem I see is that the 60-250 is a good 200g heavier than the 70-210.

But that means making a completely new lens.

I suspect the most difficult thing in making a new lens is to make some profit out of it.

Alex

I see it more likely as a 25% redesign where they could still use a lot of the existing part readily being made.

That (e.g. 'enlarging and tweaking some of the optics') simply just can't be done that easily. It's optics, not the facelift of a car at its commercial half-life.

Have you done any optical design? have you modified any existing lenses in optics programs? I have! (...) Heck give me the patent for the 60-250 and I'll play with it, however I'm likely not skilled enough to make a perfectly viable alteration.

Be my guest!

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7489452.pdf

Making a lens implies much more than updating the optics on a computer.

Said optics have to be housed by a fully functional barrel - enlarge some element (as suggested) and there might not be room in the existing barrel, not with only minor tweaks. Add a new motor type which would not fit either; use the KAF4 electromagnetic aperture because that's the future (or rather present).

Alex

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"When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say." - George R.R. Martin, A Clash of Kings

 Alex Sarbu's gear list:Alex Sarbu's gear list
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MightyMike Forum Pro • Posts: 40,698
Re: I don't understand 70-210/4 … at all
1

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Mistral75 wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Mistral75 wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Mark Ransom wrote:

I can only surmise that the 60-250 was disqualified as a starting point for a new lens. Perhaps because it relied on the old unreliable SDM focus motor. Perhaps because the optical path would need to be redesigned from scratch to be fully FF compatible. Perhaps because Pentax didn't have the personnel to devote to the project. There are a million possible reasons and all we can do is speculate.

A new focus motor likely wouldn't be a big deal to implement, enlarging and tweaking some of the optics could also have been done, then give it a new body. The only problem I see is that the 60-250 is a good 200g heavier than the 70-210.

But that means making a completely new lens.

I suspect the most difficult thing in making a new lens is to make some profit out of it.

Alex

I see it more likely as a 25% redesign where they could still use a lot of the existing part readily being made.

That (e.g. 'enlarging and tweaking some of the optics') simply just can't be done that easily. It's optics, not the facelift of a car at its commercial half-life.

Have you done any optical design? have you modified any existing lenses in optics programs? I have! (...) Heck give me the patent for the 60-250 and I'll play with it, however I'm likely not skilled enough to make a perfectly viable alteration.

Be my guest!

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7489452.pdf

Making a lens implies much more than updating the optics on a computer.

Said optics have to be housed by a fully functional barrel - enlarge some element (as suggested) and there might not be room in the existing barrel, not with only minor tweaks. Add a new motor type which would not fit either; use the KAF4 electromagnetic aperture because that's the future (or rather present).

Alex

The Patent for the 60-250mm confirms its already FF no tweaking required!

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Mike from Canada
"I am not a great photographer! God is a great creator! All I do is capture His creation with the tools He has provided me."
'I like to think so far outside the box that it would require a telephoto lens just to see the box!' ~ 'My Quote :)'
http://www.michaelfastphotography.com/galleries/VP-BDI_3a.jpg
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DAVID MANZE Veteran Member • Posts: 6,333
Re: I don't understand 70-210/4 … at all
1

Utube review of the Tamron for Canon !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piYI_gcckPw

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Dave's clichés

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Mistral75
Mistral75 Contributing Member • Posts: 906
Re: HD PENTAX-D FA 70-210mm F4 ED SDM WR now official

Joseph Tainter wrote:

(...) I do, however, have the DFA 15-30 and 24-70, both manufactured by Tamron in Japan. They are perfect. I suspect the DFA 70-210 will also be manufactured by Tamron in Japan. Let's hope so.

Joe

The HD-Pentax-D FA 15-30mm and 24-70mm f/2.8 ED SDM WR are manufactured in Japan because they derive from Tamron SP lenses, which are manufactured in Japan.

The HD Pentax-D FA 70-210mm f/4 ED SDM WR derives from the Tamron 70-210mm f/4 Di VC USD.

This Tamron lens is not an SP lens and is manufactured in Vietnam, where Tamron own a factory: Tamron Optical Việt Nam, Lô 69B và 70A, KCN Nội Bài, Xã Mai Đình, Huyện Sóc Sơn, Hà Nội (Plot No.69B & 70A, Noi Bai Industrial Zone, Mai Dinh Commune, Soc Son District, Hanoi).

https://www.tamron.com/company/tamron_group.html#vietnam

This is why the HD Pentax-D FA 70-210mm f/4 ED SDM WR is manufactured in Vietnam.

Source: https://www.yaotomi.co.jp/blog/used/2020/01/-hd-pentax-d-fa-70-210mmf4ed-sdm-wr.html

RemcoR Senior Member • Posts: 1,289
Re: HD PENTAX-D FA 70-210mm F4 ED SDM WR now official

Oiche wrote:

petedelry wrote:

In Sweden the price for this lens is 14 990 Swedish crowns (at Cyberphoto). The same dealer currently is selling the Tamron 70-210 F4 at the reduced price of 3 990 Swedish crowns (ordinary price 6 790 Swedish crowns).

So I could today buy the Tamron version of the 70-210 F4 an add a Nikon D7500 for the total price of 14740 and save 250 crowns comparing to buying the Pentax version of the lens.

That's hard to ignore, you could just buy the Nikon combo and be guaranteed action/sports camera performance as well.

The Pentax price is around £1100 in the UK, roughly the DA* 60-250 f4 price new. I know what I would buy if I didn't already own it.

In local Dutch store it is priced at € 1.079,00

RemcoR

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 11,808
Re: I don't understand 70-210/4 … at all
1

MightyMike wrote:

The Patent for the 60-250mm confirms its already FF no tweaking required!

My 60-250mm sample disagrees.

Alex

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"When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say." - George R.R. Martin, A Clash of Kings

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MightyMike Forum Pro • Posts: 40,698
Re: I don't understand 70-210/4 … at all
2

Alex Sarbu wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

The Patent for the 60-250mm confirms its already FF no tweaking required!

My 60-250mm sample disagrees.

Alex

That is because your beloved Pentax crippled it when they put it into production. But you could probably blame Hoya as this happened under their watch.

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Mike from Canada
"I am not a great photographer! God is a great creator! All I do is capture His creation with the tools He has provided me."
'I like to think so far outside the box that it would require a telephoto lens just to see the box!' ~ 'My Quote :)'
http://www.michaelfastphotography.com/galleries/VP-BDI_3a.jpg
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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 11,808
Re: I don't understand 70-210/4 … at all
2

MightyMike wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

The Patent for the 60-250mm confirms its already FF no tweaking required!

My 60-250mm sample disagrees.

Alex

That is because your beloved Pentax crippled it when they put it into production. But you could probably blame Hoya as this happened under their watch.

Irrelevant.

The fact remains, such "small" changes would be the same as making a new lens, as this is judged against the real product and its constraints, not some abstract entity on a PC.

Alex

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"When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say." - George R.R. Martin, A Clash of Kings

 Alex Sarbu's gear list:Alex Sarbu's gear list
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Massao Senior Member • Posts: 2,580
Re: I don't understand 70-210/4 … at all

DAVID MANZE wrote:

Utube review of the Tamron for Canon !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piYI_gcckPw

Looks good for FF but quite disappointing for APS-C.

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MacOli Contributing Member • Posts: 508
Re: HD PENTAX-D FA 70-210mm F4 ED SDM WR now official
2

Joseph Tainter wrote:

MacOli wrote:

Way too expensive for a rebadged, "dumbed" down Tamron lens, with a probable 20% chance of a having decentering defects when you order one.

You are correct that many Pentax lenses--more than 20% in my experience--have optical decentering. Pentax has very poor quality control, and Ricoh seems to have done nothing to correct this. I do, however, have the DFA 15-30 and 24-70, both manufactured by Tamron in Japan. They are perfect. I suspect the DFA 70-210 will also be manufactured by Tamron in Japan. Let's hope so.

Joe

Lucky you, Joe. My DFA 24-70 is optically a disappointment. Decentering defect on the right side. Unfortunately I didn't use it much after I bought it and found out only when I brought it along for holidays to do landscape and astro shots.

I really wished Sigma would make their Art Zooms available for the K-mount.

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DougOB
DougOB Senior Member • Posts: 1,899
Re: I don't understand 70-210/4 … at all
1

Alex Sarbu wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

The Patent for the 60-250mm confirms its already FF no tweaking required!

My 60-250mm sample disagrees.

Alex

That is because your beloved Pentax crippled it when they put it into production. But you could probably blame Hoya as this happened under their watch.

Irrelevant.

The fact remains, such "small" changes would be the same as making a new lens, as this is judged against the real product and its constraints, not some abstract entity on a PC.

You mean removing the baffle?

Doug

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Mark Ransom
Mark Ransom Veteran Member • Posts: 7,410
Re: I don't understand 70-210/4 … at all
1

DougOB wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

The Patent for the 60-250mm confirms its already FF no tweaking required!

My 60-250mm sample disagrees.

Alex

That is because your beloved Pentax crippled it when they put it into production. But you could probably blame Hoya as this happened under their watch.

Irrelevant.

The fact remains, such "small" changes would be the same as making a new lens, as this is judged against the real product and its constraints, not some abstract entity on a PC.

You mean removing the baffle?

If "removing the baffle" was all it took, don't you think Pentax would have done it years ago?  I take that as evidence that more was involved.

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