M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones

Started 3 months ago | Discussions
Gnine Senior Member • Posts: 1,274
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones
3

Dexter75 wrote:

fiddleseth wrote:

Yeah I noticed this with my GX85. Compared to Canon and Fujifilm the Panasonic colors are a bit more saturated and look sort of unnatural. The color mix tool in Lightroom can help with that. I switched to Fujifilm and now people look pale and unhealthy to me so I try to make those images look more like the Panasonic's. I think skin tones were slightly improved on the GX9, at least judging from some image samples I've seen.

Right. I’m betting the people who don’t see it have never shot with a Canon or other system that more accurately renders skin tones. I shouldnt have to play with the colors in post to get useable images. That’s just not feasible when I’m dealing with up to a thousand photos on a shoot sometimes. There is a good reason so many portrait/wedding photographers shoot with Canon. I’ll probably rent one of the newer Olympus cameras and play with all the profiles and see if I can get one that will work straight out of the camera.

He he he. You're talking nonsense. There's no way you can take thousands of image's in varied lighting, using Canon standard JPEGs, and get perfect skin tones. No chance. I've experienced it myself, with my own Canon cameras. Unlike you, I've actually OWNED & used both m4/3 and Canon. Not just randomly picked samples off the interwebz to try and make some weird point

OP Dexter75 Senior Member • Posts: 2,895
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones

Gnine wrote:

Dexter75 wrote:

fiddleseth wrote:

Yeah I noticed this with my GX85. Compared to Canon and Fujifilm the Panasonic colors are a bit more saturated and look sort of unnatural. The color mix tool in Lightroom can help with that. I switched to Fujifilm and now people look pale and unhealthy to me so I try to make those images look more like the Panasonic's. I think skin tones were slightly improved on the GX9, at least judging from some image samples I've seen.

Right. I’m betting the people who don’t see it have never shot with a Canon or other system that more accurately renders skin tones. I shouldnt have to play with the colors in post to get useable images. That’s just not feasible when I’m dealing with up to a thousand photos on a shoot sometimes. There is a good reason so many portrait/wedding photographers shoot with Canon. I’ll probably rent one of the newer Olympus cameras and play with all the profiles and see if I can get one that will work straight out of the camera.

He he he. You're talking nonsense. There's no way you can take thousands of image's in varied lighting, using Canon standard JPEGs, and get perfect skin tones. No chance. I've experienced it myself, with my own Canon cameras. Unlike you, I've actually OWNED & used both m4/3 and Canon. Not just randomly picked samples off the interwebz to try and make some weird point

Ive been doing it for 15 years kid, because I know how to light, my images dont vary in lighting. Anyone who knows how to light properly can get great skin tones. Ive only seen this issue with Panasonic and Olympus cameras, despite the lighting I always use, so I asked if it was a M43 thing. Since many M43 cameras share the same sensors, I dont think this is an illogical question to ask. By the way, Ive owned cameras and lenses from Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus and Leica. Go troll somewhere else.

Gnine Senior Member • Posts: 1,274
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones
5

Dexter75 wrote:

Ive been doing it for 15 years kid, because I know how to light, my images dont vary in lighting. Anyone who knows how to light properly can get great skin tones. Ive only seen this issue with Panasonic and Olympus cameras, despite the lighting I always use, so I asked if it was a M43 thing. Since many M43 cameras share the same sensors, I dont think this is an illogical question to ask. By the way, Ive owned cameras and lenses from Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus and Leica. Go troll somewhere else.

Lol. By your own admission, you're a Pro who's been at it for 15? years. You'd have a pretty impressive portfolio by that time yes? Or a website? Some examples of your own work with all these cameras you own/use?

Shoot us a link to your work, so we can decide who's trolling and who's real.

OP Dexter75 Senior Member • Posts: 2,895
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones
1

Gnine wrote:

Dexter75 wrote:

Ive been doing it for 15 years kid, because I know how to light, my images dont vary in lighting. Anyone who knows how to light properly can get great skin tones. Ive only seen this issue with Panasonic and Olympus cameras, despite the lighting I always use, so I asked if it was a M43 thing. Since many M43 cameras share the same sensors, I dont think this is an illogical question to ask. By the way, Ive owned cameras and lenses from Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus and Leica. Go troll somewhere else.

Lol. By your own admission, you're a Pro who's been at it for 15? years. You'd have a pretty impressive portfolio by that time yes? Or a website? Some examples of your own work with all these cameras you own/use?

Shoot us a link to your work, so we can decide who's trolling and who's real.

Here are just a few shots Ive had published in magazines like Muscle and Fitness, Maxim, American Curves and GQ taken with different cameras Ive used over the years. Anything else?

OP Dexter75 Senior Member • Posts: 2,895
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones
3

and here are some random shots with the Panasonic and Olympus cameras Ive owned. Just so you can't accuse me of never owning those either...

Gnine Senior Member • Posts: 1,274
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones
1

Dexter75 wrote:

Gnine wrote:

Dexter75 wrote:

Ive been doing it for 15 years kid, because I know how to light, my images dont vary in lighting. Anyone who knows how to light properly can get great skin tones. Ive only seen this issue with Panasonic and Olympus cameras, despite the lighting I always use, so I asked if it was a M43 thing. Since many M43 cameras share the same sensors, I dont think this is an illogical question to ask. By the way, Ive owned cameras and lenses from Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus and Leica. Go troll somewhere else.

Lol. By your own admission, you're a Pro who's been at it for 15? years. You'd have a pretty impressive portfolio by that time yes? Or a website? Some examples of your own work with all these cameras you own/use?

Shoot us a link to your work, so we can decide who's trolling and who's real.

Here are just a few shots Ive had published in magazines like Muscle and Fitness, Maxim, American Curves and GQ taken with different cameras Ive used over the years. Anything else?

Yes. Exactly what I see. Very Orange looking skin tones. I guess if you're tuned to Canon red/orange, they might look okay.

OP Dexter75 Senior Member • Posts: 2,895
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones
1

Gnine wrote:

Yes. Exactly what I see. Very Orange looking skin tones. I guess if you're tuned to Canon red/orange, they might look okay.

If you cant see the difference in skin tones between these two photos and how awful the Panasonic is with the exact same light setup, I dont know what to tell you except have your eyes checked.

Gnine Senior Member • Posts: 1,274
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones
1

Dexter75 wrote:

Gnine wrote:

Yes. Exactly what I see. Very Orange looking skin tones. I guess if you're tuned to Canon red/orange, they might look okay.

If you cant see the difference in skin tones between these two photos and how awful the Panasonic is with the exact same light setup, I dont know what to tell you except have your eyes checked.

Sorry, but the exposure between those 2 shots is a lot different. At least half a stop by eye. Or more. This affects colour rendition.

Oh, and there's no doubt different cameras render jpegs differently. Even within the same brand. My GX8 is quite different to my G9. Three same is true on Canon land. The EOSM 1 & 2 are quite different to the 3. The 5D4 is different to the previous versions.

ahaslett
ahaslett Veteran Member • Posts: 5,907
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones
4

As a matter of interest, why did you shoot the Panasonic at f/14?

Andrew

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Donald B
Donald B Forum Pro • Posts: 14,988
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones
2

ahaslett wrote:

As a matter of interest, why did you shoot the Panasonic at f/14?

Andrew

He was probably at a workshop and the strobes were set for FF and everyone was shooting base iso. so he needed smaller aperture for the same exposure. shooting with strobes turns the whole equivalence augment on its head, now that would have been an interesting image

Don

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ahaslett
ahaslett Veteran Member • Posts: 5,907
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones
1

Donald B wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

As a matter of interest, why did you shoot the Panasonic at f/14?

Andrew

He was probably at a workshop and the strobes were set for FF and everyone was shooting base iso. so he needed smaller aperture for the same exposure. shooting with strobes turns the whole equivalence augment on its head, now that would have been an interesting image

Don

That makes sense!  So these are really quite different images.  Wouldn’t you shoot below base ISO, to enable a less tiny aperture?

As supplementary, most of the examples seem to have heavy make up.  How should one interpret “skin tone” in that case?

Andrew

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glassoholic
glassoholic Veteran Member • Posts: 5,026
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones

BDavis wrote:

This is not a color balance issue, not is it a camera model issue.

It is a camera set up issue and easily fixed in post processing.

I ran all your photos through Photoshop and found reducing the overall color by 20 to 30 points fixed all the issues. The only one that was -20 was the cooler picture of the solo man. The rest were -30. The picture of the blonde woman in blue shirt is also overexposed. Brought down exposure a bit and was fine (and with -30 desaturation)

I shoot in studio with Novatron heads. Very consistent light for me for color. Been using same heads for 35 years, some with new tubes.

I tried some cheap chinese AC powered units. Too cheap, they are OK, just not robust . And they did have a red bias, easily corrected IN CAMERA by adjusting the red green bias in the SCP. Of course this only affects the JPEGS, and as I also shoot RAW alongside it is no problem either way. The RAWs get massaged in post anyway.

I have shot in muted with saturation set to 0 or even -1 since first picking up the E-10 in 2001, and have found it the same with all the Olympus cameras. When processing photos from other folk's cameras, I have found the same -20 to -30 desaturation to be the fix for a LOT of issues related to color and facial blemishes. The default for most of these is too high saturation to make color pop, and make the picture or the camera look "good".

My default for contrast has also been -2 contrast. All the way down. Again these settings only affect JPEGS, but in RAW I set these the same way for saturation and Contrast. In DXO it is -40 contrast.

Another issue not related to any of these pictures. When people drink they flush red. A problem with club shots and wedding receptions. That is fixed by desaturating just the red channel in Photoshop. Again, an easy fix, not camera specific.

A reminder from the past lest we forget:

The amateur films back in the day were highly saturated and high contrast. Made them full of color.

I could never get good results from these. Look at the prints critically and you will see the same issues as you are mentioning on your pictures.

Both the professional papers AND the professional films were lower in contrast and lower in saturation. Very easy to work with and got great results.

Back to the present: Red ears are caused by backlighting through the skin as another poster mentioned. Fix it with desaturation tool on just the ears. Very light touch until matched. Red shadows fixed in a variety of ways, but in general just lower the overall saturation and these issues melt away.

A thing about JPEGS, just like with overexposure, once you blow out a color channel, you are skewered. Keeping the saturation and contrast down prevents this and you can ALWAYS bring the color back up later in processing. Not possible once you overexpose a color channel. Raw allows you to correct up to a point. Under exposure, bracketing, testing helps prevent these issues, in studio and outdoors.

Hope this helps.

Fuji Reala colour negative film (and professional printing) was my solution for skin tones and the brides dress detail back in the day. Any consumer film was a recipe for disaster 🤓

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OP Dexter75 Senior Member • Posts: 2,895
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones
1

ahaslett wrote:

As a matter of interest, why did you shoot the Panasonic at f/14?

Andrew

Because at f/11, her skin looked even worse...

glassoholic
glassoholic Veteran Member • Posts: 5,026
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones
2

RAW plus appropriate processing is the solution for nice skin tones. If possible, controlling the lighting helps a lot too. The subjects face in shade plus backlighting and a diffused fill in flash works better than harsher light. Harsh light seens to "drill" down into skin and highlight blemishes like veigns or sun damage. Then a lens that is not "too" sharp helps as well, like the Oly Pro 25mm, especially wide open, but even stopped down, it draws a tad soft/ smoother than most lenses.

If m43 is appearing to be "bad" for portraits, it could be because most the lenses are so sharp and contrasty, compared to millions of shots over the years from DSLR's using lenses that are/ were much softer and lower in contrast.

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M43 equivalence: "Twice the fun with half the weight"
"You are a long time dead" -
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glassoholic
glassoholic Veteran Member • Posts: 5,026
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones

Dexter75 wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

As a matter of interest, why did you shoot the Panasonic at f/14?

Andrew

Because at f/11, her skin looked even worse...

Soft via diffraction cannot be well improved in post. Using minus micro contrast in DXO PL3 Elite from a RAW and a sharp lens shot f8 or wider, can allow you to adjust the "sharpness" very well.

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Addicted To Glass
M43 equivalence: "Twice the fun with half the weight"
"You are a long time dead" -
Credit to whoever said that first and my wife for saying it to me... Make the best you can of every day!

Gnine Senior Member • Posts: 1,274
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones
4

Dexter75 wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

As a matter of interest, why did you shoot the Panasonic at f/14?

Andrew

Because at f/11, her skin looked even worse...

That’s a new one. Changing f stops changes skin colour & tone. Really?

OP Dexter75 Senior Member • Posts: 2,895
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones

Gnine wrote:

Dexter75 wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

As a matter of interest, why did you shoot the Panasonic at f/14?

Andrew

Because at f/11, her skin looked even worse...

That’s a new one. Changing f stops changes skin colour & tone. Really?

Look at the difference between f/11 and f/14 and tell me her skin is the same color and tone...Yes F stops can indeed change skin tones because as you stop some primes down, they introduce more contrast. Have you never watched any lens reviews?

Fairlane Regular Member • Posts: 121
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones
2

Well those Canon shots looks way overprocessed to me. Like some silky smooth skin filter. If those are the skintones you are seeking, you live in a fake world.

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PistonPhotoUK
PistonPhotoUK Regular Member • Posts: 232
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones
3

I'm just seeing editing / post process issues, nought to do with either camera... Each to their own but I think this is an apples to eggs comparison...

Feel free to disregard, but in my experience most full frame lenses tend to have a much softer rendering, blurring some of this very real "blotching" from paler skin. Complaining about "blotchy" skin when that is what is actually in front of you and your camera is like saying a Ferrari is too fast.

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glassoholic
glassoholic Veteran Member • Posts: 5,026
Re: M43 cameras and blotchy red skin tones
2

PistonPhotoUK wrote:

I'm just seeing editing / post process issues, nought to do with either camera... Each to their own but I think this is an apples to eggs comparison...

Feel free to disregard, but in my experience most full frame lenses tend to have a much softer rendering, blurring some of this very real "blotching" from paler skin. Complaining about "blotchy" skin when that is what is actually in front of you and your camera is like saying a Ferrari is too fast.

... or too red and shiny (if using contrasty and sharp m43 lenses) 🤓

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Addicted To Glass
M43 equivalence: "Twice the fun with half the weight"
"You are a long time dead" -
Credit to whoever said that first and my wife for saying it to me... Make the best you can of every day!

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