E-PL what?

• All 16 mp sensor cameras have approximately the same image quality.

But three axis stabilization and 0 second antishock first appeared in the PL series with the PL7.

The 3 axis stabilization is better than the very good 2 axis stabilization used in the PL-1 through PL-6 cameras.  On a tripod it’s meaningless, though.

The zero second antishock solves any question of the dreaded shutter shock.

For taking pictures of the stars, live composite may be the most important advance.  I don’t know offhand which PL camera had it, but that sly old Guy Parsons does, I'll betcha.

Guy Parsons wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

Thanks, Guy! The Olympus guy confused me on the phone when he said that the E-PL8 has the electronic shutter too-

No way.

and then he went on to say that mechanical shutters last just as long as electronic ones do

Rubbish.

The "consumer" grade of focal plane shutters probably have a rated life of something like 30,000 to 50,000 clicks. But that is not definite, those mechanical things can fail in a range of plus or minus 100% of those rated numbers.

Big bucks models like the E-M1X will rate the focal plane shutter at 400,000 clicks and again I would expect the usual plus or minus 100% variation of that range before it fails.

The electronic shutter is purely done with electrons and they don't really wear out. Maybe in 20 years of busy use the dyes in the Bayer filter may fade a bit, but I've never heard of that happening yet.

There would be no rating at all for the electronic shutter as there is nothing to wear out. The shutter button would wear away before the sensor wears out. If you wanted a rating I would gamely say 100,000,000,000,000 or so but that's purely fiction.

Think of when the fully electronic shutter is used on any camera = during video and half an hour of video means something like a number of over 50,000 "clicks" of the electronic shutter. Add up 100 hours of video and that's over 10,000,000 "clicks" already. I've never heard of anyone wearing out a sensor due to "too much video".

(although they dont give out information on how long any of their shutters last!)

As I said, the expectations are wildly variable, but the shutter makers like Seiko or Copal would have the number buried in their specs somewhere.

In any case most people upgrade their cameras well before any shutter wears out. It is not something to worry about unless doing massive time-lapse efforts and then it's better to use an in-lens shutter camera or a fully electronic shutter.

Some reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal-plane_shutter and there I saw that Olympus invented the pulsing flash used for high speed flash sync with focal plane shutters in 1986. That keeps happening, I find that Olympus has invented a lot of the things used in cameras, others follow.

Regards..... Guy

Indeed!  Olympus was the first to come out with sensor shake technology to keep dust off the sensor and they still have the best!

I completely agree about electronic shutters, that's why I've been so interested in cameras that have them; looking at spec sheets doesn't give us the full info.

Do mechanical shutters on consumer level superzoom cameras like the Nikon P900 or P1000 follow the same rules as you mentioned above (30K-50K clicks)?  I like to pair my Oly camera with a superzoom camera in my camera bag, as the combo of both covers the full range of my shooting (from astro and landscapes to tight shots of birds and wildlife.)  I was using my E-PL6 with a Fuji HS50 and it says it has a combo mechanical-electronic shutter (which probably means it's mechanical for photos and electronic just for videos or for very fast shutter speeds?)

Guy Parsons wrote:

Humansvillian wrote:

• All 16 mp sensor cameras have approximately the same image quality.

But three axis stabilization and 0 second antishock first appeared in the PL series with the PL7.

The 3 axis stabilization is better than the very good 2 axis stabilization used in the PL-1 through PL-6 cameras. On a tripod it’s meaningless, though.

I dispute the "very good 2 axis stabilization" stuff, it was a bit of a problem, adding a micro blur to many things.

The zero second antishock solves any question of the dreaded shutter shock.

Pretty much, but some see some shock under some conditions in the area past 1/320 to about 1/500 or so.

For taking pictures of the stars, live composite may be the most important advance. I don’t know offhand which PL camera had it, but that sly old Guy Parsons does, I'll betcha.

Sly old Guy says Live Composite came with TruePic VII in the E-M1 Mk1, where the feature finally caught up in a firmware update. All the later bodies had it already activated. http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~parsog/olyepl1/80-Oly-timeline.html

Regards..... Guy

Guy.....I tried the 2x digital teleconverter thing with the 40-150mm lens on the E-PL6 and the pics seemed blurry at the tele end of that lens..... is that because of the mediocre IS?

I also tried a front side TC called the Sony VCL-DH1758 which is rated as 1.7x but is really 1.6x.  One out of about three to five pics was pretty sharp but the rest were blurry (though not as blurry as the 2x digital teleconverter pics.)  I will start a thread on that since it seems to be the best frontside teleconverter I could find and Sony Alpha users are now using it on their mirrorless APS-C cameras.  I also used it on my Fuji HS50 and noticed a substantial resolution improvement over the camera lens itself (and much better than either the 1.4x or 2.0x intelligent zoom option, even handheld!)  The good thing is that the TC has a 58mm back thread so is compatible with a wide variety of cameras and lenses.  On the HS50, it turns that camera into a 1500mm EFL f/5.6 lens (1.5x magnification on that camera) and only weighs 8.8 oz so I can handhold it without hurting my back or arms!

I kept the shutter speed to 1/1000 sec (bright sunlight) so it shouldn't be a shutter shock thing should it?

About Live Composite, subsequent frames only track movement dont they?  So it would be good for things like fireworks and shooting stars but for shooting static stars it wouldn't work?  Maybe it would work because the stars move as the earth rotates, but I dont know.  I keep my exposures to 13 sec because that seems to be the longest exposure possible at 14/28mm without making the stars streak.  So if I had Live Composite on and took 13 sec exposures in that mode it would combine all the frames and make the stars streak rather than appear as pinpoints like individual frames would?

Guy Parsons wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

.........

Do mechanical shutters on consumer level superzoom cameras like the Nikon P900 or P1000 follow the same rules as you mentioned above (30K-50K clicks)? I like to pair my Oly camera with a superzoom camera in my camera bag, as the combo of both covers the full range of my shooting (from astro and landscapes to tight shots of birds and wildlife.) I was using my E-PL6 with a Fuji HS50 and it says it has a combo mechanical-electronic shutter (which probably means it's mechanical for photos and electronic just for videos or for very fast shutter speeds?)

The small sensor cameras usually have an in-lens shutter like my Sony RX100M6, which is set to auto switch to electronic if shutter speed demands need it.

The in-lens shutter is easy to check, it simply sounds like a very quiet "snick" instead of the usual horrible "clatter-clunk" of the focal plane shutter.

Those in-lens shutters are rated at maybe up to 500,000 clicks or so, they last "forever" as they are so simple in design and operation.

Shutter life is not an issue with them, our own personal life possibly finishes before they do.

Regards.... Guy

Sadly, you're probably right.

Do newer generation lithium batteries last longer than older ones do?

I have a side question to ask you..... in purchasing a camera, do you consider it important if you can use an alternate power source with them besides lithium ion batteries? The lithium ions with my older cameras (from 2008 or earlier) no longer hold a charge...maybe the newer ones (from 2015 and later) are better and dont die after a few years? Otherwise it is important for me to have a camera that can take AA batteries or an AC/mains power source.

Guy Parsons wrote:

OutsideTheMatrix wrote:

Guy.....I tried the 2x digital teleconverter thing with the 40-150mm lens on the E-PL6 and the pics seemed blurry at the tele end of that lens..... is that because of the mediocre IS?

To be safe with E-PL5/6 I would keep to 1/100 sec or faster for 2xDTC at 150mm with 2 axis IBIS and to 1/600 or faster without stabilisation for 2x 150mm.

Very likely problem is IBIS as it does add a tiny blur, that is why I bought the Panasonic 45-150mm when I used the E-PL5 as it had OIS I could use, no problems at all with that.

I also tried a front side TC called the Sony VCL-DH1758 which is rated as 1.7x but is really 1.6x. One out of about three to five pics was pretty sharp but the rest were blurry (though not as blurry as the 2x digital teleconverter pics.) I will start a thread on that since it seems to be the best frontside teleconverter I could find and Sony Alpha users are now using it on their mirrorless APS-C cameras. I also used it on my Fuji HS50 and noticed a substantial resolution improvement over the camera lens itself (and much better than either the 1.4x or 2.0x intelligent zoom option, even handheld!) The good thing is that the TC has a 58mm back thread so is compatible with a wide variety of cameras and lenses. On the HS50, it turns that camera into a 1500mm EFL f/5.6 lens (1.5x magnification on that camera) and only weighs 8.8 oz so I can handhold it without hurting my back or arms!

I kept the shutter speed to 1/1000 sec (bright sunlight) so it shouldn't be a shutter shock thing should it?

At 1/1000 there should be no shutter shock as the shock displacement is just starting, maybe some very slight effect.

Usually it is IBIS performance (the old 2 axis is really bad compared to the later 3/5 axis) or not being able to specify the focal length.

Such as having the tele lens then adding the tele adapter, the camera does not know that the focal length has increased by 1.6x and there's no way to manually change that with a native lens attached. So the IBIS is working at 150mm but the shake is happening at 1.6x the magnitude that it is correcting for.

I'm definitely not a fan of front side wide or tele attachments, I see the best route as getting the correct native lens for the task.

About Live Composite, subsequent frames only track movement dont they? So it would be good for things like fireworks and shooting stars but for shooting static stars it wouldn't work? Maybe it would work because the stars move as the earth rotates, but I dont know. I keep my exposures to 13 sec because that seems to be the longest exposure possible at 14/28mm without making the stars streak. So if I had Live Composite on and took 13 sec exposures in that mode it would combine all the frames and make the stars streak rather than appear as pinpoints like individual frames would?

Sorry, no experience with Live Composite yet (or stars), I just haven't had the time to seriously play with my fresh E-M10 Mk2.

All I understand it that you take an initial exposure to handle the ambient scene light and then Live Composite builds on that allowing extra exposure were it happens and preventing over-exposure. Maybe read this https://learnandsupport.getolympus.com/learn-center/photography-tips/fireworks-light-trails/7-ways-you-can-use-live-composite to start with.

Regards.... Guy

Thanks Guy,I found this:

LIGHTNING

Because only changes in light are added to your final composite, you can easily catch each brief strike of lightning in clear detail.

Lightning photography is quite interesting!

For the blur problem with the digital TC, I should probably turn off IBIS since my shutter speeds were around 1/1000 sec? Is the digital TC better than a 2x increase using software? Thanks!

Were you able to get reasonably sharp handheld images with the Oly 75-300 lens on your EPL5 or is that lens too much for 2 axis IBIS?  Maybe the Panny 100-300 lens would be better?  It's faster too.