With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?

Started 4 months ago | Discussions
OP tqlla Veteran Member • Posts: 5,403
Re: heads and heads

T3 wrote:

tqlla wrote:

I know most are concentrating on costs. But the 4th Gen A7R and the A9ii doesnt have a flip screen.

I personally hate off-axis flip screens. I had it on my Canon 60D and hated it. I just feel it's unnatural to be looking at an LCD screen that is off to the side of the camera, far off axis from the lens. I like articulating LCD screens that stay along the axis of the lens. That's why I like Sony's flip screen implementation on the A6400. When vlogging,you can look directly at the lens axis, not off to the side. And when shooting from the rear, you can also look down the lens axis, not off to the side.

I hate off axis flip screens as well.  I am not sure why Sony doesnt have the A77/A99 flip screen on the A7 series yet.   They are already on the 4th Gen, and the 2nd gen A9 came out without one.

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W3PYF
W3PYF Contributing Member • Posts: 871
Re: With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?
2

tqlla wrote:

Eric wrote:

TBF, not a shock to see cameras go on sale around the holidays.

I got my a7III+kit lens for $1700 through Amazon last month. Without the Amazon prime deal, it would've been $2000 for that kit for a kit that was normally $2200 earlier this year.

Without those Sony discounts, I wouldn't have bought the camera. I do think they need to put some sales on their lenses though, I think those a little overpriced.

Thats not a bad deal, but its not like the kit 28-70mm lens is a lens that people really want.

I just bought the EOS R with 24-105mm F4 for $1920, for my aunt. People are buying the EOS R with adapter for $1300 or less(with Canon loyalty program)

Funny you should once again challenge the kit lens. I just found a few images I made with it on my A7 almost 6 years ago. I thought it much maligned then - and still do, even though I moved on to an A7II and A7III, now with a Tamron 28-75 RXD

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T3 Forum Pro • Posts: 21,527
Re: heads and heads

tqlla wrote:

T3 wrote:

tqlla wrote:

I know most are concentrating on costs. But the 4th Gen A7R and the A9ii doesnt have a flip screen.

I personally hate off-axis flip screens. I had it on my Canon 60D and hated it. I just feel it's unnatural to be looking at an LCD screen that is off to the side of the camera, far off axis from the lens. I like articulating LCD screens that stay along the axis of the lens. That's why I like Sony's flip screen implementation on the A6400. When vlogging,you can look directly at the lens axis, not off to the side. And when shooting from the rear, you can also look down the lens axis, not off to the side.

I hate off axis flip screens as well. I am not sure why Sony doesnt have the A77/A99 flip screen on the A7 series yet. They are already on the 4th Gen, and the 2nd gen A9 came out without one.

I think it's probably just one of those marketing decisions that manufacturers do: if a new camera has enough new features to help drive sales, then they save certain features for a future release. That might be the case with the articulating screen. After all, as we know, Sony already has these screens.

If Sony does finally bring their articulating screen to future A7/A9 bodies, that would be far more preferable (to me) than Canon's off-axis flip screen.

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JohnNEX Senior Member • Posts: 2,032
Re: With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?
1

Whoopeee, a thread inviting free advice to Sony on their corporate strategy.

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GrapeJam
GrapeJam Senior Member • Posts: 3,415
Re: With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?

People need to understand that Sony camera products are made in China and thus need to take trade war tariffs into account.

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Cheese Gromit
Cheese Gromit Regular Member • Posts: 186
Re: With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?
1

GrapeJam wrote:

People need to understand that Sony camera products are made in China and thus need to take trade war tariffs into account.

Only if you live in the USA I believe, meanwhile in the rest of the world 😎

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sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 16,237
Re: With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?

IMO, yes, which is why I ordered a refurb R + RF 24-105 kit and 35 1.8 this morning

In Sony land an equivalent combo would cost an additional $1250/50%. Is that worth it? Maybe if you are very serious about video, or shoot a lot of action, or have a ton of unstabilized glass. And even considering that, much of that added cost is in the lenses (about $1000), which for arguments sake we will say are equal in performance (I think the Canons are a hair better). I don't need 4K and have managed to take plenty of great shots essentially being limited to 1FPS with adapting.

Plus the Canon's ergos and EVF are much better... and we can argue about color science until the end of time but IMO the R's colors are nicer than my A7R2's yellow-greenish tinge.

Again I think a case can be made to pay the premium for Sony gear. IF you take full advantage of all its technical prowess, then the premium is worth it. (Interestingly a lot of its biggest cheerleaders don't :-D) But for basic family/travel photography it's just not worth it to me. The whole time I have used Sony lenses were an issue, and it doesn't look like that gripe will ever go away. So I'm out for now. No system, including Canon RF, is perfect but when it's all said and done I will have a better system for me and money in my pocket from the proceeds of unloading my Sony stuff.

I think a similar argument could be made for Nikon Z as well; "refurb" Z6 + 24-70/4 are going for $1800 right now; Z6 body alone is $1270. The technical margins are even slimmer there and while Nikon's lenses are probably as expensive as Sony's (if not more in some cases) I don't think they've released any duds yet. The 24-70/4 is the clearest example. Only reason I didn't go Nikon is because my wife shoots Canon and has some very nice glass I'd like to use.

So yes while Canikon are having to cannibalize their profits to retain market share I think as a consumer it's worth analyzing the value propositions at the moment.

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sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 16,237
Re: With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?

GrapeJam wrote:

People need to understand that Sony camera products are made in China and thus need to take trade war tariffs into account.

This is Sony's problem, not mine. They've had plenty of time to adjust. I think Canon makes their RF stuff either in Japan or Taiwan for example.

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PAntunes Regular Member • Posts: 411
Re: With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?
4

You're not comparing equivalent models. With 1 card slot, no IBIS, no af joystick, worst AF, worst battery life, etc, it's normal that canon cameras are cheaper. If they were the same price, they'd be crushed. 
If what you want is a cheap full frame camera, the A7RII or the A7II are much more in line with canon's current offers.

GrapeJam
GrapeJam Senior Member • Posts: 3,415
Re: With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?

PAntunes wrote:

You're not comparing equivalent models. With 1 card slot, no IBIS, no af joystick, worst AF, worst battery life, etc, it's normal that canon cameras are cheaper. If they were the same price, they'd be crushed.
If what you want is a cheap full frame camera, the A7RII or the A7II are much more in line with canon's current offers.

Nah, with the latest firmware Canon AF is pretty good, its better than the A7III in some ways and worse in some ways. Overall its a tie. Not as good as the latest Sony but way better than the rest.

And to many people thats good enough, few people need a9 level subect tracking.

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PAntunes Regular Member • Posts: 411
Re: With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?
2

GrapeJam wrote:

PAntunes wrote:

You're not comparing equivalent models. With 1 card slot, no IBIS, no af joystick, worst AF, worst battery life, etc, it's normal that canon cameras are cheaper. If they were the same price, they'd be crushed.
If what you want is a cheap full frame camera, the A7RII or the A7II are much more in line with canon's current offers.

Nah, with the latest firmware Canon AF is pretty good, its better than the A7III in some ways and worse in some ways. Overall its a tie. Not as good as the latest Sony but way better than the rest.

The latest FW fixed the speed of the box in eye-af, not the accuracy. And for the many don't need a fast AF, the A7II would be good enough with a smaller price tag.

liopleurodon Senior Member • Posts: 1,351
Re: heads and heads

T3 wrote:

tqlla wrote:

T3 wrote:

tqlla wrote:

I know most are concentrating on costs. But the 4th Gen A7R and the A9ii doesnt have a flip screen.

I personally hate off-axis flip screens. I had it on my Canon 60D and hated it. I just feel it's unnatural to be looking at an LCD screen that is off to the side of the camera, far off axis from the lens. I like articulating LCD screens that stay along the axis of the lens. That's why I like Sony's flip screen implementation on the A6400. When vlogging,you can look directly at the lens axis, not off to the side. And when shooting from the rear, you can also look down the lens axis, not off to the side.

I hate off axis flip screens as well. I am not sure why Sony doesnt have the A77/A99 flip screen on the A7 series yet. They are already on the 4th Gen, and the 2nd gen A9 came out without one.

I think it's probably just one of those marketing decisions that manufacturers do: if a new camera has enough new features to help drive sales, then they save certain features for a future release. That might be the case with the articulating screen. After all, as we know, Sony already has these screens.

If Sony does finally bring their articulating screen to future A7/A9 bodies, that would be far more preferable (to me) than Canon's off-axis flip screen.

The limitation of that design is that a mic or flash will block the screen.  Canon's implementation is better for this.

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GrapeJam
GrapeJam Senior Member • Posts: 3,415
Re: With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?
1

PAntunes wrote:

GrapeJam wrote:

PAntunes wrote:

You're not comparing equivalent models. With 1 card slot, no IBIS, no af joystick, worst AF, worst battery life, etc, it's normal that canon cameras are cheaper. If they were the same price, they'd be crushed.
If what you want is a cheap full frame camera, the A7RII or the A7II are much more in line with canon's current offers.

Nah, with the latest firmware Canon AF is pretty good, its better than the A7III in some ways and worse in some ways. Overall its a tie. Not as good as the latest Sony but way better than the rest.

The latest FW fixed the speed of the box in eye-af, not the accuracy. And for the many don't need a fast AF, the A7II would be good enough with a smaller price tag.

Man, I actually use the EOS R before and after FW 1.4 , I also owned the A7III for more than a year so I know whats a good benchmark for eye AF. The eye AF on the EOS R in actual use before and after FW 1.4 is night and day. Before fw 1.4, subject recognition was a constant frustration as the EOS R would fail to detect the eye in many mundane situations. After FW 1.4 the EOS R got a huge improvement in subject recognition and now after few months with it I'm actually impressed with it as its even able to detect the eye in situations that even the A7III would fail ( althought overall the A7III eye detection is still a bit better).

As for the dpreview test, its a complete joke, subject was in good light, clearly defined and visible. Its like comparing an idiot with a genius by asking 1 + 1 = ?, and when both answer 2 you conclude that the idiot is as smart as the genius.

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PAntunes Regular Member • Posts: 411
Re: With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?
2

GrapeJam wrote:

PAntunes wrote:

GrapeJam wrote:

PAntunes wrote:

You're not comparing equivalent models. With 1 card slot, no IBIS, no af joystick, worst AF, worst battery life, etc, it's normal that canon cameras are cheaper. If they were the same price, they'd be crushed.
If what you want is a cheap full frame camera, the A7RII or the A7II are much more in line with canon's current offers.

Nah, with the latest firmware Canon AF is pretty good, its better than the A7III in some ways and worse in some ways. Overall its a tie. Not as good as the latest Sony but way better than the rest.

The latest FW fixed the speed of the box in eye-af, not the accuracy. And for the many don't need a fast AF, the A7II would be good enough with a smaller price tag.

Man, I actually use the EOS R before and after FW 1.4 , I also owned the A7III for more than a year so I know whats a good benchmark for eye AF. The eye AF on the EOS R in actual use before and after FW 1.4 is night and day. Before fw 1.4, subject recognition was a constant frustration as the EOS R would fail to detect the eye in many mundane situations. After FW 1.4 the EOS R got a huge improvement in subject recognition and now after few months with it I'm actually impressed with it as its even able to detect the eye in situations that even the A7III would fail ( althought overall the A7III eye detection is still a bit better).

As for the dpreview test, its a complete joke, subject was in good light, clearly defined and visible. Its like comparing an idiot with a genius by asking 1 + 1 = ?, and when both answer 2 you conclude that the idiot is as smart as the genius.

Other users of the R commented that they didn't feel any update on accuracy of the AF from 1.3 to 1.4. Just the speed of the box.

GrapeJam
GrapeJam Senior Member • Posts: 3,415
Re: With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?

PAntunes wrote:

GrapeJam wrote:

PAntunes wrote:

GrapeJam wrote:

PAntunes wrote:

You're not comparing equivalent models. With 1 card slot, no IBIS, no af joystick, worst AF, worst battery life, etc, it's normal that canon cameras are cheaper. If they were the same price, they'd be crushed.
If what you want is a cheap full frame camera, the A7RII or the A7II are much more in line with canon's current offers.

Nah, with the latest firmware Canon AF is pretty good, its better than the A7III in some ways and worse in some ways. Overall its a tie. Not as good as the latest Sony but way better than the rest.

The latest FW fixed the speed of the box in eye-af, not the accuracy. And for the many don't need a fast AF, the A7II would be good enough with a smaller price tag.

Man, I actually use the EOS R before and after FW 1.4 , I also owned the A7III for more than a year so I know whats a good benchmark for eye AF. The eye AF on the EOS R in actual use before and after FW 1.4 is night and day. Before fw 1.4, subject recognition was a constant frustration as the EOS R would fail to detect the eye in many mundane situations. After FW 1.4 the EOS R got a huge improvement in subject recognition and now after few months with it I'm actually impressed with it as its even able to detect the eye in situations that even the A7III would fail ( althought overall the A7III eye detection is still a bit better).

As for the dpreview test, its a complete joke, subject was in good light, clearly defined and visible. Its like comparing an idiot with a genius by asking 1 + 1 = ?, and when both answer 2 you conclude that the idiot is as smart as the genius.

Other users of the R commented that they didn't feel any update on accuracy of the AF from 1.3 to 1.4. Just the speed of the box.

Who? And what do they shoot?

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sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 16,237
Re: With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?

PAntunes wrote:

GrapeJam wrote:

PAntunes wrote:

GrapeJam wrote:

PAntunes wrote:

You're not comparing equivalent models. With 1 card slot, no IBIS, no af joystick, worst AF, worst battery life, etc, it's normal that canon cameras are cheaper. If they were the same price, they'd be crushed.
If what you want is a cheap full frame camera, the A7RII or the A7II are much more in line with canon's current offers.

Nah, with the latest firmware Canon AF is pretty good, its better than the A7III in some ways and worse in some ways. Overall its a tie. Not as good as the latest Sony but way better than the rest.

The latest FW fixed the speed of the box in eye-af, not the accuracy. And for the many don't need a fast AF, the A7II would be good enough with a smaller price tag.

Man, I actually use the EOS R before and after FW 1.4 , I also owned the A7III for more than a year so I know whats a good benchmark for eye AF. The eye AF on the EOS R in actual use before and after FW 1.4 is night and day. Before fw 1.4, subject recognition was a constant frustration as the EOS R would fail to detect the eye in many mundane situations. After FW 1.4 the EOS R got a huge improvement in subject recognition and now after few months with it I'm actually impressed with it as its even able to detect the eye in situations that even the A7III would fail ( althought overall the A7III eye detection is still a bit better).

As for the dpreview test, its a complete joke, subject was in good light, clearly defined and visible. Its like comparing an idiot with a genius by asking 1 + 1 = ?, and when both answer 2 you conclude that the idiot is as smart as the genius.

Other users of the R commented that they didn't feel any update on accuracy of the AF from 1.3 to 1.4. Just the speed of the box.

Do you have the same nearly non-existent burden of proof for claims for the R/against the Sony? Prob not.

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aSevenArr
aSevenArr Senior Member • Posts: 2,161
Re: With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?
4

tqlla wrote:

This weekend, Canon put the EOS R on sale for $1500, with discounts as low as $1300. Even less using Canon's loyalty program, which Sony doesnt have. The EOS RP is only $1000.

I know these dont have dual card slots or IBIS, but they do have a better touch screen, better EVF than the A7iii, included an adapter that works like native, and a flip screen. If you are looking at current like for like prices. Also consider the RF lenses are brand new designs the FE has been around for a couple years.

  • A7iii is $1800 vs EOS R $1300 vs EOS RP $1000
  • 35mm FE=$750 vs RF=$450
  • Adapter FE=$180 vs RF=included or $100
  • 70-200 GM=$2600 vs RF=$2700
  • 24-70 GM=$2200 vs RF=$2300
  • 24-105 GM=$1100 vs RF=$900
  • 24-200 GM=$950 vs RF=$900

I love that Sony advances the sensors so quickly, but things like a flip screen and a better adapter should have been done by now. And now it looks like Sony needs to adjust their prices.

It’s nice that you want to give Canon a boost here, but personally I’ve never missed a full touch screen menu, my A9’s EVF is excellent and my screen flips just fine for my purposes.

Why on earth would I go back to Canon who are still playing catch-up with mirrorless technologies and offerings that are still lagging far behind Sony’s and quite likely to be abandoned later just as Betamax and Divx have since died from a similar lack of consumer support?

On the basis of a few sales discounts is what you are suggesting? Sorry but that’s just ridiculous.

So I should sell my current gear and move back for a better EVF and a touch screen? I think not.

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GrapeJam
GrapeJam Senior Member • Posts: 3,415
Re: With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?

aSevenArr wrote:

tqlla wrote:

This weekend, Canon put the EOS R on sale for $1500, with discounts as low as $1300. Even less using Canon's loyalty program, which Sony doesnt have. The EOS RP is only $1000.

I know these dont have dual card slots or IBIS, but they do have a better touch screen, better EVF than the A7iii, included an adapter that works like native, and a flip screen. If you are looking at current like for like prices. Also consider the RF lenses are brand new designs the FE has been around for a couple years.

  • A7iii is $1800 vs EOS R $1300 vs EOS RP $1000
  • 35mm FE=$750 vs RF=$450
  • Adapter FE=$180 vs RF=included or $100
  • 70-200 GM=$2600 vs RF=$2700
  • 24-70 GM=$2200 vs RF=$2300
  • 24-105 GM=$1100 vs RF=$900
  • 24-200 GM=$950 vs RF=$900

I love that Sony advances the sensors so quickly, but things like a flip screen and a better adapter should have been done by now. And now it looks like Sony needs to adjust their prices.

It’s nice that you want to give Canon a boost here, but personally I’ve never missed a full touch screen menu, my A9’s EVF is excellent and my screen flips just fine for my purposes.

Why on earth would I go back to Canon who are still playing catch-up with mirrorless technologies and offerings that are still lagging far behind Sony’s and quite likely to be abandoned later just as Betamax and Divx have since died from a similar lack of consumer support?

On the basis of a few sales discounts is what you are suggesting? Sorry but that’s just ridiculous.

So I should sell my current gear and move back for a better EVF and a touch screen? I think not.

There are times when having the greatest and latest techs isn't the end all be all. Some people find certain aspects of other cameras to be more important to them than having the latest techs which they don't make use of.

And beside, most would say that the RF glasses are really sexy.

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sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 16,237
Re: With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?
2

aSevenArr wrote:

tqlla wrote:

This weekend, Canon put the EOS R on sale for $1500, with discounts as low as $1300. Even less using Canon's loyalty program, which Sony doesnt have. The EOS RP is only $1000.

I know these dont have dual card slots or IBIS, but they do have a better touch screen, better EVF than the A7iii, included an adapter that works like native, and a flip screen. If you are looking at current like for like prices. Also consider the RF lenses are brand new designs the FE has been around for a couple years.

  • A7iii is $1800 vs EOS R $1300 vs EOS RP $1000
  • 35mm FE=$750 vs RF=$450
  • Adapter FE=$180 vs RF=included or $100
  • 70-200 GM=$2600 vs RF=$2700
  • 24-70 GM=$2200 vs RF=$2300
  • 24-105 GM=$1100 vs RF=$900
  • 24-200 GM=$950 vs RF=$900

I love that Sony advances the sensors so quickly, but things like a flip screen and a better adapter should have been done by now. And now it looks like Sony needs to adjust their prices.

It’s nice that you want to give Canon a boost here, but personally I’ve never missed a full touch screen menu, my A9’s EVF is excellent and my screen flips just fine for my purposes.

Why on earth would I go back to Canon who are still playing catch-up with mirrorless technologies and offerings that are still lagging far behind Sony’s and quite likely to be abandoned later just as Betamax and Divx have since died from a similar lack of consumer support?

On the basis of a few sales discounts is what you are suggesting? Sorry but that’s just ridiculous.

So I should sell my current gear and move back for a better EVF and a touch screen? I think not.

No need to take is so personally lol. This is one of the most annoying things about Sony shooters- like Tesla owners anything less than gushing praise is taken as a personal attack. Nowhere did he say you have to do anything; he just posed a question.

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aSevenArr
aSevenArr Senior Member • Posts: 2,161
Re: With Canon's low sale prices, is Sony becoming too expensive?
1

GrapeJam wrote:

aSevenArr wrote:

tqlla wrote:

This weekend, Canon put the EOS R on sale for $1500, with discounts as low as $1300. Even less using Canon's loyalty program, which Sony doesnt have. The EOS RP is only $1000.

I know these dont have dual card slots or IBIS, but they do have a better touch screen, better EVF than the A7iii, included an adapter that works like native, and a flip screen. If you are looking at current like for like prices. Also consider the RF lenses are brand new designs the FE has been around for a couple years.

  • A7iii is $1800 vs EOS R $1300 vs EOS RP $1000
  • 35mm FE=$750 vs RF=$450
  • Adapter FE=$180 vs RF=included or $100
  • 70-200 GM=$2600 vs RF=$2700
  • 24-70 GM=$2200 vs RF=$2300
  • 24-105 GM=$1100 vs RF=$900
  • 24-200 GM=$950 vs RF=$900

I love that Sony advances the sensors so quickly, but things like a flip screen and a better adapter should have been done by now. And now it looks like Sony needs to adjust their prices.

It’s nice that you want to give Canon a boost here, but personally I’ve never missed a full touch screen menu, my A9’s EVF is excellent and my screen flips just fine for my purposes.

Why on earth would I go back to Canon who are still playing catch-up with mirrorless technologies and offerings that are still lagging far behind Sony’s and quite likely to be abandoned later just as Betamax and Divx have since died from a similar lack of consumer support?

On the basis of a few sales discounts is what you are suggesting? Sorry but that’s just ridiculous.

So I should sell my current gear and move back for a better EVF and a touch screen? I think not.

There are times when having the greatest and latest techs isn't the end all be all. Some people find certain aspects of other cameras to be more important to them than having the latest techs which they don't make use of.

Yes. There’s a lot of folks who must own the latest camera gear regardless. They sell their (often barely used) current camera and then upgrade to the latest model as soon as it’s launched.

Go figure.

But for my own shooting my current A9 is simply unbeatable, and it’s amazing capabilities make a massive difference in capturing images that other cameras would simply miss altogether.

And I’m now mystified as to how I survived all these years without silent blackout free shooting at 20fps.

 aSevenArr's gear list:aSevenArr's gear list
Sony RX100 IV Sony a9 Sony a7R Sony FE 100-400mm F4.5-5.6 Sony FE 85mm F1.4 GM +13 more
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