Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

Started 4 months ago | Questions
MisterBG Veteran Member • Posts: 6,993
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

When I was using Lightroom the rule of thumb always used to be that you did all your file moving and deleting from within Lightroom.
If you moved files ouside of LR (like with your file manager) LR got confused and didn't know where your files were.
I'm really glad I'm now using an editor that doesn't rely (and insist) on having all your files in it's "Catalog" and I'm free to move and/or delete files any way I want to.

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mfinley Senior Member • Posts: 3,494
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

MisterBG wrote:

When I was using Lightroom the rule of thumb always used to be that you did all your file moving and deleting from within Lightroom.
If you moved files ouside of LR (like with your file manager) LR got confused and didn't know where your files were.
I'm really glad I'm now using an editor that doesn't rely (and insist) on having all your files in it's "Catalog" and I'm free to move and/or delete files any way I want to.

This has been one of the major things I don't like about LR. I do wish it was somehow able to 'follow' your originals around if you move them. I hope LR changes this in an update someday.

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OP malcolmbebb Regular Member • Posts: 183
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

MisterBG wrote:

When I was using Lightroom the rule of thumb always used to be that you did all your file moving and deleting from within Lightroom.
If you moved files ouside of LR (like with your file manager) LR got confused and didn't know where your files were.
I'm really glad I'm now using an editor that doesn't rely (and insist) on having all your files in it's "Catalog" and I'm free to move and/or delete files any way I want to.

I'd be interested to know what you're using. I've been trying to get my head around a number of programs to decide what I want to concentrate on.

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Sailor Blue
Sailor Blue Forum Pro • Posts: 15,516
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

mfinley wrote:

malcolmbebb wrote:

<snip>

I believe there is some confusion to what LR is doing when you 'import' photos. LR is not actually copying or moving your originals into itself nor any folders. It sounds like you might think this is what it is doing, but I may not be reading you correctly.

LIghtroom can copy or move files either during import or later on.

When importing from a camera memory card the best option is to copy the files from the card to a specific or new image folder in your master image folder on a hard drive (it could be Pictures or some other folder if desired). That way if there is a failure during the import process you can redo the import because all the images are still on the camera's memory card.

I only reformat my camera's memory cards, in camera, after importing the images, inspecting them, and making two backup copies.

If you already have images in a folder on a hard drive you can simply import them without copying them to a new location. You can create that folder to begin with in your master image folder, or move it there before importing the images into LR. If you want to move it after importing the images then you should do that from within LR so that LR knows that the location of the images has changed.

I use LR's Import to copy over images from my camera's memory cards to folders within my master image folder. I use the computer's file management software to copy over images from my phone to a new folder in my master image folder then import them into LR. This is simply the way I work.

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davidedric Veteran Member • Posts: 5,835
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

If you haven't already, head over to the Lightroom Queen's site and download her free "Getting Started" ebook. Help you avoid the early pitfalls

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OP malcolmbebb Regular Member • Posts: 183
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

Sounds good, I'm holding back a little to try to get things right first time (see, you can change the habits of a lifetime )

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Zeee Forum Pro • Posts: 19,950
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

mfinley wrote:

MisterBG wrote:

When I was using Lightroom the rule of thumb always used to be that you did all your file moving and deleting from within Lightroom.
If you moved files ouside of LR (like with your file manager) LR got confused and didn't know where your files were.
I'm really glad I'm now using an editor that doesn't rely (and insist) on having all your files in it's "Catalog" and I'm free to move and/or delete files any way I want to.

This has been one of the major things I don't like about LR. I do wish it was somehow able to 'follow' your originals around if you move them. I hope LR changes this in an update someday.

Change what. If you don't move a file using LR then just click on the ? and tell LR where you moved the files. The problem arises when people forget to do this and  years later have a catalogue upgrade. It is just easier to move them using LR. I really don't see the difference. You are still moving files.

I like it because nice to be organized. I can still edit those files using other software. If I open another develop the file structure is exactly the same. The best part LR is I can go back a month later and all my edits are there.

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Zeee Forum Pro • Posts: 19,950
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

malcolmbebb wrote:

MisterBG wrote:

When I was using Lightroom the rule of thumb always used to be that you did all your file moving and deleting from within Lightroom.
If you moved files ouside of LR (like with your file manager) LR got confused and didn't know where your files were.

The is no different than someone moving your keys to another location and not telling you. Since the catalogue is a record of your edits it needs to know where you files are.

All you have to do is click on the ? and tell LR where you moved them. Pretty easy and not an issue - if you do it right away. It is just easier to do it using LR except when moving thousands of files. Then you should use the OS, click on the parent folder ? and tell it where you moved them. It does not take much time to get used to it.

I'm really glad I'm now using an editor that doesn't rely (and insist) on having all your files in it's "Catalog" and I'm free to move and/or delete files any way I want to.

I'd be interested to know what you're using. I've been trying to get my head around a number of programs to decide what I want to concentrate on.

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I feel even more confident that soon things will have a wonderful conclusion

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MisterBG Veteran Member • Posts: 6,993
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

Zeee wrote:

malcolmbebb wrote:

MisterBG wrote:

When I was using Lightroom the rule of thumb always used to be that you did all your file moving and deleting from within Lightroom.
If you moved files ouside of LR (like with your file manager) LR got confused and didn't know where your files were.

The is no different than someone moving your keys to another location and not telling you. Since the catalogue is a record of your edits it needs to know where you files are. All you have to do is click on the ? and tell LR where you moved them. Pretty easy and not an issue - if you do it right away. It is just easier to do it using LR except when moving thousands of files. Then you should use the OS, click on the parent folder ? and tell it where you moved them. It does not take much time to get used to it.

No. The xmp sidecar file contains the record of your edits, and that is always associated with your original raw file.
Clicking "?" is another step in the process, which if LR didn't use the "Catalog" would not be necessary.

I'm really glad I'm now using an editor that doesn't rely (and insist) on having all your files in it's "Catalog" and I'm free to move and/or delete files any way I want to.

I'd be interested to know what you're using. I've been trying to get my head around a number of programs to decide what I want to concentrate on.

On1.
Just use your normal (in my case Windows) file browser to move, rename or delete your image files.

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mfinley Senior Member • Posts: 3,494
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real
1

Sailor Blue wrote:

mfinley wrote:

malcolmbebb wrote:

<snip>

I believe there is some confusion to what LR is doing when you 'import' photos. LR is not actually copying or moving your originals into itself nor any folders. It sounds like you might think this is what it is doing, but I may not be reading you correctly.

LIghtroom can copy or move files either during import or later on.

When importing from a camera memory card the best option is to copy the files from the card to a specific or new image folder in your master image folder on a hard drive (it could be Pictures or some other folder if desired).

If you already have images in a folder on a hard drive you can simply import them without copying them to a new location. You can create that folder to begin with in your master image folder, or move it there before importing the images into LR. If you want to move it after importing the images then you should do that from within LR so that LR knows that the location of the images has changed.

Correct. But the question is does the OP understand this, his statements are sounding unclear based on his choice of words.

Newbies to LR sometimes believe when they 'import' to the lightroom library, that they are actually importing the media files into a lightroom catalog with a copy residing somewhere within the LR folders on their computer. They usually finally figure out all is not what they assumed when they rename or move the original folder containing their images and find a "?" in lightroom's Library, then they end up asking questions or reading further to understand what LR is really doing when they "import" files.

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mfinley Senior Member • Posts: 3,494
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

Zeee wrote:

mfinley wrote:

MisterBG wrote:

When I was using Lightroom the rule of thumb always used to be that you did all your file moving and deleting from within Lightroom.
If you moved files ouside of LR (like with your file manager) LR got confused and didn't know where your files were.
I'm really glad I'm now using an editor that doesn't rely (and insist) on having all your files in it's "Catalog" and I'm free to move and/or delete files any way I want to.

This has been one of the major things I don't like about LR. I do wish it was somehow able to 'follow' your originals around if you move them. I hope LR changes this in an update someday.

Change what. If you don't move a file using LR then just click on the ? and tell LR where you moved the files.

Yes, you have no choice, in a perfect world, I'd rather not have to do that simple step, I'd prefer an effortless version where LR follows the file's location. I think it's easy to understand the desire for easier. I'm guessing if it was optional today you wouldn't go into lightroom preferences and opt out of it now would you?

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dwight3
dwight3 Senior Member • Posts: 2,763
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

As far as LR keeping track of an image, I think that with a good folder structure, you should be able to put a file onto your hard drive and leave it in place forever. I see no need to move a file under normal computer operation.

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OP malcolmbebb Regular Member • Posts: 183
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

I think the point has been well made, think it through and get something you can keep going with and it will work in LR.
My present structure works for me, but this is a good time to tidy up and get rid of some of the clutter. Especially as I'm taking more photos, using raw, and filling up disk space a lot quicker these days.

So I'm following the advice and getting organised before I start importing, whether I use LR to move files or initially just import from the file strucure.

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mfinley Senior Member • Posts: 3,494
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

dwight3 wrote:

As far as LR keeping track of an image, I think that with a good folder structure, you should be able to put a file onto your hard drive and leave it in place forever. I see no need to move a file under normal computer operation.

Funny stuff.

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OP malcolmbebb Regular Member • Posts: 183
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

Thanks.

I'm planning a tidy up of my photo folders, originally OK but getting a little untidy, so I was considering using LR to move the files to a new clean structure and import them at the same time. Then I'd be sure it knew about them. Undecided at present which way to go.

I had previously installed the trial of the cloud based LR version (now replaced with Classic), and this did in fact create a separate directory in Users/...Appdata/ etc. Exactly what people were saying LR didn't do! And this is where it held the files including those marked for deletion (and subsequently deleted). Ample scope for confusion.

(Classic doesn't seem to know about these files)

C:\Users\<username>\AppData\Local\Adobe\Lightroom CC\Data\a5055bfb542a4549996220c97477c4d1\originals\<date>

So I copied this directory before I uninstalled the trial. It's still there, it's 5GB and I can view the files - it's a real directory not a database, and I didn't put it there.

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mfinley Senior Member • Posts: 3,494
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

malcolmbebb wrote:

Thanks.

I'm planning a tidy up of my photo folders, originally OK but getting a little untidy, so I was considering using LR to move the files to a new clean structure and import them at the same time. Then I'd be sure it knew about them. Undecided at present which way to go.

I had previously installed the trial of the cloud based LR version (now replaced with Classic), and this did in fact create a separate directory in Users/...Appdata/ etc. Exactly what people were saying LR didn't do! And this is where it held the files including those marked for deletion (and subsequently deleted). Ample scope for confusion.

(Classic doesn't seem to know about these files)

C:\Users\<username>\AppData\Local\Adobe\Lightroom CC\Data\a5055bfb542a4549996220c97477c4d1\originals\<date>

So I copied this directory before I uninstalled the trial. It's still there, it's 5GB and I can view the files - it's a real directory not a database, and I didn't put it there.

I don't know anything about how you ended up with what you're describing, but its not a feature of the desktop version. The only thing LR is going to create is the sidecars with the instructions on the adjustments you make to each original file. The only images created with LR will be when you output them with the changes you make to them and save them as a Jpeg.

LR strengths to me are primarily its image processing capabilities, a strong handshake with Photoshop, the subscription gives me the new goodies Adobe keeps introducing, all the plugins that are made for it and the reality that many of its competitors make LR plugins so you can simply handshake your file to another 3rd party package from within LR for a specialty feature set. It's been the industry standard that every competitor gets benchmarked against, so for me, I don't see the advantage to bother with another company that only wants to be what LR already is.

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Zeee Forum Pro • Posts: 19,950
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

MisterBG wrote:

Zeee wrote:

malcolmbebb wrote:

MisterBG wrote:

When I was using Lightroom the rule of thumb always used to be that you did all your file moving and deleting from within Lightroom.
If you moved files ouside of LR (like with your file manager) LR got confused and didn't know where your files were.

The is no different than someone moving your keys to another location and not telling you. Since the catalogue is a record of your edits it needs to know where you files are. All you have to do is click on the ? and tell LR where you moved them. Pretty easy and not an issue - if you do it right away. It is just easier to do it using LR except when moving thousands of files. Then you should use the OS, click on the parent folder ? and tell it where you moved them. It does not take much time to get used to it.

No. The xmp sidecar file contains the record of your edits, and that is always associated with your original raw file.
Clicking "?" is another step in the process, which if LR didn't use the "Catalog" would not be necessary.

In case you forget to move a file using the extra step to re-establish a missing link sometimes so exhausting you need a week or so to recover

I'm really glad I'm now using an editor that doesn't rely (and insist) on having all your files in it's "Catalog" and I'm free to move and/or delete files any way I want to.

I'd be interested to know what you're using. I've been trying to get my head around a number of programs to decide what I want to concentrate on.

On1.
Just use your normal (in my case Windows) file browser to move, rename or delete your image files.

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Sailor Blue
Sailor Blue Forum Pro • Posts: 15,516
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

dwight3 wrote:

As far as LR keeping track of an image, I think that with a good folder structure, you should be able to put a file onto your hard drive and leave it in place forever. I see no need to move a file under normal computer operation.

I couldn't agree more.

My folder structure is set up like I described in my first post in this thread. The reason is simple, I want to be able to find my images with any image viewer, not just with LIghtroom.

If I'm looking for an image of Aunt Bee at Christmas that might have been taken in any year from 1995 to 2000 I would go to LR and use keywords to bring up the just the Aunt Bee Christmas images so I could look through the grid of images to quickly to find the one image I wanted.

If I knew it was taken in 2000 then I might just use a smaller and faster loading program like FastStone to bring up a grid of the images of Pictures>Family>Christmas001225 (i.e. date in the yymmdd format).

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dwight3
dwight3 Senior Member • Posts: 2,763
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

Sailor Blue wrote:

.., I want to be able to find my images with any image viewer, not just with LIghtroom.

If I'm looking for an image of Aunt Bee at Christmas that might have been taken in any year from 1995 to 2000 I would go to LR and use keywords to bring up the just the Aunt Bee Christmas images so I could look through the grid of images to quickly to find the one image I wanted.

If I knew it was taken in 2000 then I might just use a smaller and faster loading program like FastStone to bring up a grid of the images of Pictures>Family>Christmas001225 (i.e. date in the yymmdd format).

The importance of a good folder structure extends beyond your convenience in finding things.

While LR is really good at locating images if they are well keyworded, no matter what folder they are in (as long as LR knows where they are), none of my family knows how to use LR, especially how to find a file in LR. When I'm not in the picture any more, a good folder structure will help my family find family photos that are important to them. LR's DAM will be of no use whatever.

And I should note that this applies not only to your photos, but any file in your computer that has any importance to your family.

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Zeee Forum Pro • Posts: 19,950
Re: Lightroom newbie question - culling for real

dwight3 wrote:

Sailor Blue wrote:

.., I want to be able to find my images with any image viewer, not just with LIghtroom.

If I'm looking for an image of Aunt Bee at Christmas that might have been taken in any year from 1995 to 2000 I would go to LR and use keywords to bring up the just the Aunt Bee Christmas images so I could look through the grid of images to quickly to find the one image I wanted.

If I knew it was taken in 2000 then I might just use a smaller and faster loading program like FastStone to bring up a grid of the images of Pictures>Family>Christmas001225 (i.e. date in the yymmdd format).

The importance of a good folder structure extends beyond your convenience in finding things.

While LR is really good at locating images if they are well keyworded, no matter what folder they are in (as long as LR knows where they are), none of my family knows how to use LR, especially how to find a file in LR. When I'm not in the picture any more, a good folder structure will help my family find family photos that are important to them. LR's DAM will be of no use whatever.

And I should note that this applies not only to your photos, but any file in your computer that has any importance to your family.

https://www.lightroomqueen.com/community/threads/demise-of-lr-user-how-can-the-family-access-the-images.39102/#post-1257855

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