Sony ergonomics, menu system, controls and colors ...

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A-Marc
A-Marc Regular Member • Posts: 198
Re: Sony ergonomics, menu system, controls and colors ...
2

TRIODEROB wrote:

seems like I read quite a number of threads where folks jump ship from Sony for those specific 4 items.

if Sony can be a leader in such hi tech areas as sensor development and eye focus , why cant they get the hand grip, portrait color science and an intuitive menu system right ???

just to be clear … I am not saying these things - but just look for yourself on the other forums at the number of Sony owners reaching out as they are about to eBay their Sony systems and buy Nikon, Canon R or Fuji

i think its just a normal human behaviour, to not be flexible enough and change habits.

instead of looking at the benefits what it could bring, most moan about what it doesnt bring. For some reason people think they can view both sides of the coin at the same time. take the ergonomics for example, they want bigger cameras, but as light as a compact one. they want huge load of menu settings, but wont deal with learning the extra features.

i think the menu system of the R4 is next to perfect. Ergonomics, color and controls are far better from all my past cameras i ve owned.

PWPhotography Veteran Member • Posts: 9,165
Re: Sony ergonomics, menu system, controls and colors ...
2

A-Marc wrote:

TRIODEROB wrote:

seems like I read quite a number of threads where folks jump ship from Sony for those specific 4 items.

if Sony can be a leader in such hi tech areas as sensor development and eye focus , why cant they get the hand grip, portrait color science and an intuitive menu system right ???

just to be clear … I am not saying these things - but just look for yourself on the other forums at the number of Sony owners reaching out as they are about to eBay their Sony systems and buy Nikon, Canon R or Fuji

i think its just a normal human behaviour, to not be flexible enough and change habits.

instead of looking at the benefits what it could bring, most moan about what it doesnt bring. For some reason people think they can view both sides of the coin at the same time. take the ergonomics for example, they want bigger cameras, but as light as a compact one. they want huge load of menu settings, but wont deal with learning the extra features.

i think the menu system of the R4 is next to perfect. Ergonomics, color and controls are far better from all my past cameras i ve owned.

All these are just user preference, your vs my that each better in our respective choice.

I am so happy with Sony system after 10-year Canon FF ownership. I have owned so many Sony FF ML cameras and just added another one, A7r IV today. Just make our own respective choice based on our preference and priority, why we should ever care others' opinion?

BTW, Sony takes over Canikon in Japan market.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/7869207001/sony-overtakes-canon-and-nikon-to-dominate-the-full-frame-camera-market-in-japan

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SQLGuy Veteran Member • Posts: 8,083
Re: More nonsense
10

I keep hearing about triode guys jumping to beam pentodes or even MOSFETs over things like damping factor, efficiency, tube life, and even plain old power output. If triodes can lead in areas like euphonic distortion, why can't they compete in these other areas?

Seriously, if you spent half as much time taking photos as you did figuring out what inane threads to start on the Sony forum you would probably be a lot happier.

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Pixel Pooper Veteran Member • Posts: 3,222
Re: Sony ergonomics, menu system, controls and colors ...
1

People are always going to complain about something, and now that Sony has the best sensors, best AF, and best lens range, all that is left to whine about are these relatively minor gripes.

These things are all subjective so you can't please everybody, but it seems like more people are jumping ship to Sony than from Sony. Where do you think Sony gets their customers from? Most are ex Canon and Nikon users.

Mike Evangelist
Mike Evangelist Contributing Member • Posts: 507
Re: More nonsense
1

SQLGuy wrote:

I keep hearing about triode guys jumping to beam pentodes or even MOSFETs over things like damping factor, efficiency, tube life, and even plain old power output. If triodes can lead in areas like euphonic distortion, why can't they compete in these other areas?

Made my day!

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OP TRIODEROB Veteran Member • Posts: 3,577
Re: Sony ergonomics, menu system, controls and colors ...
4

PWPhotography wrote:

"Just make our own respective choice based on our preference and priority, why we should ever care others' opinion?"

that's close minded.

using your logic nobody should give any thought to the close to ten thousand posts you have made in the past 5 years on the DP forum

PWPhotography Veteran Member • Posts: 9,165
Re: Sony ergonomics, menu system, controls and colors ...
2

TRIODEROB wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

"Just make our own respective choice based on our preference and priority, why we should ever care others' opinion?"

that's close minded.

using your logic nobody should give any thought to the close to ten thousand posts you have made in the past 5 years on the DP forum

That is right that we don't have to care each other's opinion, just between us.

But still since you have already made mind dislike all these design/setting in Sony cameras, so why you still bother to post such thread in this forum as you have repeated a few times? This time there will be no difference. In your opinion it seems Canon should meet all your expectation much better if you want to move to FF, why wasting your time into a system you are very dislike? Get an EOS R that should take better photos than your current APS-C system. There is a holiday sale now so don't miss it

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OP TRIODEROB Veteran Member • Posts: 3,577
Re: Sony ergonomics, menu system, controls and colors ...
9

PWPhotography wrote:

TRIODEROB wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

"Just make our own respective choice based on our preference and priority, why we should ever care others' opinion?"

that's close minded.

using your logic nobody should give any thought to the close to ten thousand posts you have made in the past 5 years on the DP forum

That is right that we don't have to care each other's opinion, just between us.

But still since you have already made mind dislike all these design/setting in Sony cameras, so why you still bother to post such thread in this forum as you have repeated a few times? This time there will be no difference. In your opinion it seems Canon should meet all your expectation much better if you want to move to FF, why wasting your time into a system you are very dislike? Get an EOS R that should take better photos than your current APS-C system. There is a holiday sale now so don't miss it

wow you have an ego

you actually think you are a visionary photographer - LOL

one final time - its not your place to give me  intructions - I have now placed you on "ignore "

DmitryA7III Junior Member • Posts: 25
Re: Sony ergonomics, menu system, controls and colors ...

This is, actually, great news as I will jump on an opportunity to find good deals on Sony equipment!

PWPhotography Veteran Member • Posts: 9,165
Re: Sony ergonomics, menu system, controls and colors ...
3

TRIODEROB wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

TRIODEROB wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

"Just make our own respective choice based on our preference and priority, why we should ever care others' opinion?"

that's close minded.

using your logic nobody should give any thought to the close to ten thousand posts you have made in the past 5 years on the DP forum

That is right that we don't have to care each other's opinion, just between us.

But still since you have already made mind dislike all these design/setting in Sony cameras, so why you still bother to post such thread in this forum as you have repeated a few times? This time there will be no difference. In your opinion it seems Canon should meet all your expectation much better if you want to move to FF, why wasting your time into a system you are very dislike? Get an EOS R that should take better photos than your current APS-C system. There is a holiday sale now so don't miss it

wow you have an ego

you actually think you are a visionary photographer - LOL

one final time - its not your place to give me intructions - I have now placed you on "ignore "

As others suggesting you, you are wasting your time here in flaming such brand war.  Why just not enjoying brand/camera you like not wasting time in brand/camera you dislike?  Spending more time in taking photos instead.

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Ltgk20 Regular Member • Posts: 197
Re: Sony ergonomics, menu system, controls and colors ...
2

I've been on Sony cameras since the a100, so their menus are familiar to me.  In fact, I've had to work through one or two Nikons and Canons and their menus seemed completely unintuitive.  I think one of the biggest barrier's to Sony's menus is that people are switching from other systems with which they are very familiar with.  It's kind of like Capture One and Lightroom.  I don't think Capture One is any more difficult to use than Lightroom, but it sure seemed like it when I switched because I was comparing day 1 for Capture One against many years of Lightroom.

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caplanner Senior Member • Posts: 1,283
Re: Sony ergonomics, menu system, controls and colors ...
2

TRIODEROB wrote:

Mike Evangelist wrote:

TRIODEROB wrote:

seems like I read quite a number of threads where folks jump ship from Sony for those specific 4 items.

Sorry, but this is pure horse manure.

oh really ?

why not take a look at the Canon R forum today as an example.

I don't mind if folks call BS on me - but at least have something to back it up if you do

Yep, horse manure...

That ‘something to back it up’ you’re getting from the Canon forum isn’t exactly objective analysis.

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saltydogstudios Senior Member • Posts: 1,396
Re: Sony ergonomics, menu system, controls and colors ...
9

I learned on a completely manual film camera - the Pentax K-1000. The battery powered the light meter and nothing else (the light meter was visible through the viewfinder to help you set exposure). It was a 100% manual camera and worked even without the battery - you just had to meter your exposure in another way.

So for me a camera must allow me to easily change these things (Primary)

  • Aperture
  • Shutter Speed
  • ISO
  • White Balance
  • Exposure Preview (for switching between strobe & natural light)

These are fundamental to photography. Any camera that hides these from me is "unergonomic."

Other features that are fundamental to photography are (Secondary)

  • Focus / Autofocus Mode
  • Focal Distance (lens dependent)
  • First/Rear Curtain Shutter
  • Drive Mode
  • Setting Custom White Balance
  • Image Size / Quality / Crop Mode

Nikon - has dedicated buttons for all of the Primary functions and many of the secondary functions. You can set a Custom menu screen to other options you want.

Fuji - has dedicated dials for most of the Primary functions and many of the secondary functions either have dedicated buttons or are accessible via the Quick menu.

Canon - is a bit harder to navigate but can do most of these with dedicated buttons.

Sony - has no dedicated buttons. You need the FN menu for most of the Primary and Secondary functions and there is no ability to create a Custom Menu.

For example - I switch between studio and natural light a lot. I've had to memorize how to get to "Exposure Preview" on/off.

* speaking from experience only with the cameras I've used.

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sybersitizen Forum Pro • Posts: 14,805
Re: Sony ergonomics, menu system, controls and colors ...
3

TRIODEROB wrote:

... just look for yourself on the other forums at the number of Sony owners reaching out as they are about to eBay their Sony systems and buy Nikon, Canon R or Fuji

Sounds like you've done some very selective reading, and missed all the other people going in an opposite direction.

FujLiver
FujLiver Contributing Member • Posts: 788
Re: Sony ergonomics, menu system, controls and colors ...

TRIODEROB wrote:

PW -

you are not in a position to instruct me what to do on the DP forum

we have talked about this before - this is not actually YOUR web page or forum - the idea being I am under no obligation to please you.

if you notice the total number of threads created per year on the Sony forum you will see that I am involved with just a very tiny %

I am easy for you to avoid and suggest you do so

Actually if you saw the amount of threads on the Sony forum vs the others I think you have your answer

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FujLiver
FujLiver Contributing Member • Posts: 788
I know you are not a troll but ....
6

The Sony system is the number one mirrorless and FF mirrorless in the world. now Sony is number one in japan for all camera sales

it has been going for far longer then the Canon, Nikon and Panasonic effort

Obviously therefore there will be more people leaving the system then any other. Perhaps they want a change, perhaps they bought in by mistake, perhaps they are just gas flippers, who knows .....

What I do know is that the Sony camera system is so good, so ergonomic, with such great technology and fabulous lens range, OEM and 3rd party, that people who want to attack it have a hard time, so they go for the more emotional insults and the menu system, which is an easy target

What I would say to you, is to not worry about other people, choose the system that appeals the most to you. Also look for the good review sites, like amateur photographer, ephotozine, the-digital-picture, thephotoblogger, philipreeve, etc, and leave the more excitable click bait ones alone, especially some of the YouTube reviewers (fronow is quite good)

and try it yourself in a shop

despite all the discounting and hype surrounding the others, the A7iii is still number one in the US, UK and Japan (and probably others which I don’t monitor), despite not being the cheapest by far. That tells you all you need to know ...

Oh, and BTW the lens availability is magical

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Bob Janes
Bob Janes Veteran Member • Posts: 3,347
Personal preferences & justifications
1

TRIODEROB wrote:

seems like I read quite a number of threads where folks jump ship from Sony for those specific 4 items.

A few things to get straight early on:

1. Some people will always move from one thing to another.

2. Some people move for reasons that are key to them, but might seem relatively minor to others.

3. Some people will want to move because it doesn't have the name of a real camera company on the front - if it had Canon or Nikon on the front, they feel that they would be recognized as a proper photographer (these are a minority but they exist). If Minolta had stayed in the camera business and shared the mount with Sony, there would have been two camps with sniffyness between them.

People in the third category, will want to look like people in the second category.

National characteristics also come in here.

North americans tend to go for a larger product. Cars are bigger, preferences are for bigger cameras. European and asian tastes tend more towards the small. The Sony bodies are probably more oriented towards the European/Asian taste than the North American.

The original Sony Alpha menus were based on the Minolta ones, then the NEX range was brought out which was a big change (not in a good way - the NEX-7 menu is still fairly inpenetrable after 8 years of ownership), but the later A and E mount cameras have gone back to more conventional menus..

..one of the issues is the amount of customization that Sony allow (and before them, Minolta used to do it too - the Analogue Dynax 7 really needed the LCD on the back to navigate the menus) - and that is going to lead to an extensive menu.

I agree that the NEX-7 menu was/is awful, but it was still livable with once you had the camera set up. personally I don't find anything to complain about in the current menus, or in the handling characteristics of the bodies, but you can't please everyone and Sony's policy of incremental changes is probably quite sensible.

if Sony can be a leader in such hi tech areas as sensor development and eye focus , why cant they get the hand grip, portrait color science and an intuitive menu system right ???

just to be clear … I am not saying these things - but just look for yourself on the other forums at the number of Sony owners reaching out as they are about to eBay their Sony systems and buy Nikon, Canon R or Fuji

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PWPhotography Veteran Member • Posts: 9,165
Re: Sony ergonomics, menu system, controls and colors ...
5

saltydogstudios wrote:

I learned on a completely manual film camera - the Pentax K-1000. The battery powered the light meter and nothing else (the light meter was visible through the viewfinder to help you set exposure). It was a 100% manual camera and worked even without the battery - you just had to meter your exposure in another way.

So for me a camera must allow me to easily change these things (Primary)

  • Aperture
  • Shutter Speed
  • ISO
  • White Balance

If you shoot in RAW, then this WB is irrelevant. I only shoot in RAW even with A9 in action photos.

  • Exposure Preview (for switching between strobe & natural light)

These are fundamental to photography. Any camera that hides these from me is "unergonomic."

Other features that are fundamental to photography are (Secondary)

  • Focus / Autofocus Mode
  • Focal Distance (lens dependent)
  • First/Rear Curtain Shutter
  • Drive Mode
  • Setting Custom White Balance
  • Image Size / Quality / Crop Mode

Nikon - has dedicated buttons for all of the Primary functions and many of the secondary functions. You can set a Custom menu screen to other options you want.

Fuji - has dedicated dials for most of the Primary functions and many of the secondary functions either have dedicated buttons or are accessible via the Quick menu.

Canon - is a bit harder to navigate but can do most of these with dedicated buttons.

Sony - has no dedicated buttons. You need the FN menu for most of the Primary and Secondary functions and there is no ability to create a Custom Menu.

You are incorrect. Sony bodies are highly customizable with those buttons and knobs that you can assign specific function. Sony bodies have all those buttons for your primary or secondary function (or could be assigned), two wheels for aperture and shutter, dedicated ISO push (the right-push on the back big dial) instead of a button. It works the same way as Nikon for example, you press the ISO push, rotate the dial to adjust ISO while with Nikon you press the ISO button and rotate the back dial to adjust, what difference? As said White Balance is unnecessary if you shoot RAW but still can be assigned to a button. 'Exposure Preview' or 'Set Effect View' in Sony term can be assigned to a function button.

Personally I dislike excessive wheels and knobs that only slow down the operation, such as the dedicated ISO wheel in Fuji that I can change ISO in Sony body quicker (as quick as just assign to the big back dial that only needs one rotation step if you want). I even think the EC wheel is unnecessary on Sony bodies as I need explicit two steps to adjust EC and ISO so I prefer Nikon Z7/6's implementation to put a small EC and ISO button next to shutter. The space left can put a top LCD screen.

For example - I switch between studio and natural light a lot. I've had to memorize how to get to "Exposure Preview" on/off.

Assign to whatever button (C1 to C5 or others) for 'Set Effect Preview' On/Off toggle, very easy.

* speaking from experience only with the cameras I've used.

Appear you don't have much experience in Sony bodies.

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Magnar W
Magnar W Senior Member • Posts: 4,337
Funny, isn't it?
8

TRIODEROB wrote:

seems like I read quite a number of threads where folks jump ship from Sony for those specific 4 items.

Sony ergonomics are a problem for some who use other cameras, and try a Sony for ten seconds in a shop ...

Menu system is ok, and even thirteen year old photographers can set up the camera. Menus are a problem for a few hours or days for those who come from other systems. And it is the same way around!

Controls are just fine, even in darkness or with gloves during a cold winter. What button can't you hit?

And colors - again, this is just an issue for JPG shooters who are unable to chose in-camera options for color settings. There are plenty of optional settings if you want different out-of-camera color.

RAW is all about profiles.

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The Davinator
The Davinator Forum Pro • Posts: 22,961
Re: Funny, isn't it?
8

Magnar W wrote:

TRIODEROB wrote:

seems like I read quite a number of threads where folks jump ship from Sony for those specific 4 items.

Sony ergonomics are a problem for some who use other cameras, and try a Sony for ten seconds in a shop ...

Takes even less than that to decide that a bike without a seat is not going to be a comfortable ride 😜

Sony obviously realized that there was an issue as they have changed the grip depth and size on the a7r4.  I find that one far more comfortable....and realized that after a few seconds in the shop holding the camera with various lenses.

Menu system is ok, and even thirteen year old photographers can set up the camera. Menus are a problem for a few hours or days for those who come from other systems. And it is the same way around!

Controls are just fine, even in darkness or with gloves during a cold winter. What button can't you hit?

And colors - again, this is just an issue for JPG shooters who are unable to chose in-camera options for color settings. There are plenty of optional settings if you want different out-of-camera color.

RAW is all about profiles.

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