Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

Started Nov 25, 2019 | Discussions
OP Hadrian R Regular Member • Posts: 142
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

onlyfreeman wrote:

Hadrian R wrote:

It turns out that DPReview's own samples from the lens show the problem in the highlights too.

Check this out from image 315A0001.CR3 in DPReview's

lens sample gallery:

Can you link the image in the DPR gallery? It's not showing for me.

This should be it:

https://www.dpreview.com/sample-galleries/7457721205/canon-rf-85mm-f1-2l-usm-sample-gallery/4467562505

 Hadrian R's gear list:Hadrian R's gear list
Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EF 85mm F1.2L II USM Canon EF 100mm F2.8L Macro IS USM Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon Extender EF 2x III +2 more
onlyfreeman
onlyfreeman Senior Member • Posts: 2,353
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

Hadrian R wrote:

onlyfreeman wrote:

Hadrian R wrote:

It turns out that DPReview's own samples from the lens show the problem in the highlights too.

Check this out from image 315A0001.CR3 in DPReview's

lens sample gallery:

Can you link the image in the DPR gallery? It's not showing for me.

This should be it:

https://www.dpreview.com/sample-galleries/7457721205/canon-rf-85mm-f1-2l-usm-sample-gallery/4467562505

Wow I have to look at it at 200% to notice anything. I'm guessing maybe it's something to do with the sensor itself and ultra-fast lenses, sort of PDAF striping issue but for the Dual-Pixel sensor instead? Possible?

Some artifacts / reflections caused by every single pixel maybe?

It can probably be fixed by Canon, or some creative demosaicing / noise reduction etc.

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OP Hadrian R Regular Member • Posts: 142
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

Interesting. Reading more about this, it looks as if this problem I'm experiencing is similar to what's described in that article.

It doesn't say whether fast lenses cause that problem or whether the problem persists with all lenses with strong highlights for the Sony.

I've pretty much confirmed that only my RF 85mm f/1.2 is having this issue. I've now tried:

EF 24-70 f/2.8L II

EF 100mm f/2.8L IS

EF 300 f/2.8L IS II.

I still have a few other lenses to try, but they're in the f/4 category and I sincerely doubt they'll exhibit the same problem.

 Hadrian R's gear list:Hadrian R's gear list
Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EF 85mm F1.2L II USM Canon EF 100mm F2.8L Macro IS USM Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon Extender EF 2x III +2 more
onlyfreeman
onlyfreeman Senior Member • Posts: 2,353
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

How are you opening the raws in RawTherapee, mine won't recognise the files and I'm sure it's the latest version?

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OP Hadrian R Regular Member • Posts: 142
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

onlyfreeman wrote:

How are you opening the raws in RawTherapee, mine won't recognise the files and I'm sure it's the latest version?

Thanks for your continued help.

I really appreciate everyone's help with this.

To answer you question:

I'm not using RawTherapee. The Raw Converters I have available are:

- Preview in macOS Catalina

- Adobe Lightroom Classic CC

- Adobe Photoshop CC 2020

- Skylum Luminar 4

- Canon's DPP

All of the Converts show the issue except for Luminar 4, which drastically reduces the problem to the point where it's negligible.

 Hadrian R's gear list:Hadrian R's gear list
Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EF 85mm F1.2L II USM Canon EF 100mm F2.8L Macro IS USM Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon Extender EF 2x III +2 more
rrc1967 Senior Member • Posts: 1,853
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

Hadrian R wrote:

rrc1967 wrote:

Hadrian R wrote:

UPDATE:

The Camera Store finally got a replacement camera in for me.

Unfortunately, the new camera is doing exactly the something. I'm getting the same strange lines/patterns shooting wide opening with the effect diminishing around f/1.8 using the RF 85mm f/1.2L lens.

I'm attaching another screen captured zoom in, as well as linking to a new RAW file from the new camera.

Also, I can see these same lines from the camera generated JPEG preview on the back of the camera screen or through the EVF.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lgd0ilhkbfj8dz3/AAAD_pA_Bo_diMb49p9v8Jioa?dl=0

I'm kind of at a loss at this point. I bought this camera and lens combination to shoot wide open. I don't want to be worried about these artifacts, or whatever they are, while I'm trying to enjoy the camera.

The only other thing I can think of is maybe the problem lies with the lens. Could the lens be at fault here? It seems unlikely, but I just don't know...

lenses can certainly cause some issues with electrical interference. have you tried any other lens? even an EF lens the adapter,etc?

I quickly scanned the thread, but didn't notice you tried CR2's instead of CR3's - apologies if you have. CR3 files are a lossy compression, artifacts may appear especially at this level of inspection.

To be honest though, I've stared at this image for a good minute and I can't see the lines. If you are honestly worried to this extent, the first thing I'd remove is CR3's.

Edit: I could certainly see the issue at 200% in DPP, I'd still first try CR2's.

Hi,

Thanks again for responding.

I don't think there's a way of going back to .CR2 on the R system. .CR3 is the new norm. There is a C-CR3, which I am not using. Other than that, however, there isn't any other formats to choose from.

this is an EOS R not an RP?

you should be able to choose "uncompressed" as far as your RAW settings.

and my mistake.  I had "assumed" that with the EOS R you could choose CR2 or CR3, depending on compression.  I assume you are not compressing these RAW files?

OP Hadrian R Regular Member • Posts: 142
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

rrc1967 wrote:

Hadrian R wrote:

rrc1967 wrote:

Hadrian R wrote:

UPDATE:

The Camera Store finally got a replacement camera in for me.

Unfortunately, the new camera is doing exactly the something. I'm getting the same strange lines/patterns shooting wide opening with the effect diminishing around f/1.8 using the RF 85mm f/1.2L lens.

I'm attaching another screen captured zoom in, as well as linking to a new RAW file from the new camera.

Also, I can see these same lines from the camera generated JPEG preview on the back of the camera screen or through the EVF.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lgd0ilhkbfj8dz3/AAAD_pA_Bo_diMb49p9v8Jioa?dl=0

I'm kind of at a loss at this point. I bought this camera and lens combination to shoot wide open. I don't want to be worried about these artifacts, or whatever they are, while I'm trying to enjoy the camera.

The only other thing I can think of is maybe the problem lies with the lens. Could the lens be at fault here? It seems unlikely, but I just don't know...

lenses can certainly cause some issues with electrical interference. have you tried any other lens? even an EF lens the adapter,etc?

I quickly scanned the thread, but didn't notice you tried CR2's instead of CR3's - apologies if you have. CR3 files are a lossy compression, artifacts may appear especially at this level of inspection.

To be honest though, I've stared at this image for a good minute and I can't see the lines. If you are honestly worried to this extent, the first thing I'd remove is CR3's.

Edit: I could certainly see the issue at 200% in DPP, I'd still first try CR2's.

Hi,

Thanks again for responding.

I don't think there's a way of going back to .CR2 on the R system. .CR3 is the new norm. There is a C-CR3, which I am not using. Other than that, however, there isn't any other formats to choose from.

this is an EOS R not an RP?

you should be able to choose "uncompressed" as far as your RAW settings.

and my mistake. I had "assumed" that with the EOS R you could choose CR2 or CR3, depending on compression. I assume you are not compressing these RAW files?

Correct. These are the uncompressed .CR3 RAW files. I can choose either CR3 or C-CR3 (the compressed RAW format).

As far as I can see, there is no other option to choose compression.

 Hadrian R's gear list:Hadrian R's gear list
Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EF 85mm F1.2L II USM Canon EF 100mm F2.8L Macro IS USM Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon Extender EF 2x III +2 more
Kameratrollet Regular Member • Posts: 456
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

onlyfreeman wrote:

How are you opening the raws in RawTherapee, mine won't recognise the files and I'm sure it's the latest version?

Adobe DNG converter, open the DNG in darktable or RawTherapee, use VNG4 as demosaicing. Removed the pattern completely. RawTherapee will soon be able to open CR3.

Same pattern is visible on some 5D II and 7D. I already linked the explanation before but paste it below also. This is from my 7D.

What I know this pattern should be visible with all lenses and not just one.

VNG4

If you use a medium format technical camera with near-symmetrical wide angle lenses such as the Schneider Digitar 28mm or 35mm it's likely that the image captured by your sensor will contain some crosstalk between photosites, especially if the lens is shifted (due to the low angle of incoming light from these lenses some light leaks over to the next pixel on the sensor), and in this case you can get mazing artifacts with AMaZE and DCB because of the green channel separation caused by the crosstalk. If you combine a mirrorless camera using an adapter with a wide angle lens designed for film, you may also get crosstalk. It can then be better to use the VNG4 algorithm (Variable Number of Gradients), which handles this situation well, at the cost of some fine detail. An alternative is to enable green equilibration to even-out the green channel differences.

AMaZE

VNG4

For Adobe users I tried $ exiftool -BayerGreenSplit=250 raw-file.dng without success.

coso dp
coso dp Regular Member • Posts: 277
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

shawnphoto wrote:

I figured that would be the case. The good news is it looks like some RAW processors will fix the issues.

But wouldn't this be a problem for ALL R users?

NoTicket Regular Member • Posts: 209
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

coso dp wrote:

shawnphoto wrote:

I figured that would be the case. The good news is it looks like some RAW processors will fix the issues.

But wouldn't this be a problem for ALL R users?

Not many people are posting comparison files.

OP Hadrian R Regular Member • Posts: 142
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

Kameratrollet wrote:

onlyfreeman wrote:

How are you opening the raws in RawTherapee, mine won't recognise the files and I'm sure it's the latest version?

Adobe DNG converter, open the DNG in darktable or RawTherapee, use VNG4 as demosaicing. Removed the pattern completely. RawTherapee will soon be able to open CR3.

Same pattern is visible on some 5D II and 7D. I already linked the explanation before but paste it below also. This is from my 7D.

What I know this pattern should be visible with all lenses and not just one.

VNG4

If you use a medium format technical camera with near-symmetrical wide angle lenses such as the Schneider Digitar 28mm or 35mm it's likely that the image captured by your sensor will contain some crosstalk between photosites, especially if the lens is shifted (due to the low angle of incoming light from these lenses some light leaks over to the next pixel on the sensor), and in this case you can get mazing artifacts with AMaZE and DCB because of the green channel separation caused by the crosstalk. If you combine a mirrorless camera using an adapter with a wide angle lens designed for film, you may also get crosstalk. It can then be better to use the VNG4 algorithm (Variable Number of Gradients), which handles this situation well, at the cost of some fine detail. An alternative is to enable green equilibration to even-out the green channel differences.

AMaZE

VNG4

For Adobe users I tried $ exiftool -BayerGreenSplit=250 raw-file.dng without success.

Thank you for taking the time and for your very detailed reply. I will give your suggestion a try.

In regard to what you said: "What I know this pattern should be visible with all lenses and not just one."

So far, the pattern is ONLY visible at apertures less than f/2.0. The pattern does not show on any of my other lenses which are f/2.8.

When using my RF 85mm I can see the pattern at f/1.2, 1.4. 1.8, etc. The effect diminishes as the aperture becomes smaller.

 Hadrian R's gear list:Hadrian R's gear list
Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EF 85mm F1.2L II USM Canon EF 100mm F2.8L Macro IS USM Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon Extender EF 2x III +2 more
OP Hadrian R Regular Member • Posts: 142
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?
6

I went to The Camera Store this afternoon and played with their demo R and their demo RF 85mm.

I put their lens on my body and my lens on their body. Both cameras did EXACTLY the same thing -- same pattern in the highlights.

It's something with the design of the camera. I am a CPS Platinum member, so I will contact Canon on Monday and forward my test images to them. They might either be able to shed some more light on the issue, or at least investigate it further.

 Hadrian R's gear list:Hadrian R's gear list
Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EF 85mm F1.2L II USM Canon EF 100mm F2.8L Macro IS USM Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon Extender EF 2x III +2 more
Kameratrollet Regular Member • Posts: 456
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

onlyfreeman wrote:

How are you opening the raws in RawTherapee, mine won't recognise the files and I'm sure it's the latest version?

https://github.com/Beep6581/RawTherapee/releases/tag/nightly also works without the need of Adobe DNG Converter. I used RawTherapee-dev-5.7-260-g3748133-20191201.AppImage today.

gium Senior Member • Posts: 1,595
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

This is a really good finding. Thanks Hadrian. Hopefully Canon will investigate and fix.

 gium's gear list:gium's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Canon EOS R5 Canon EF 15mm f/2.8 Fisheye Canon EF 85mm F1.2L II USM Canon EF 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 USM +8 more
Kameratrollet Regular Member • Posts: 456
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?
1

Hadrian, would you like to submit an affected raw file under CC0 license? I would like to write about the issue at my Swedish web page.

OP Hadrian R Regular Member • Posts: 142
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

Kameratrollet wrote:

Hadrian, would you like to submit an affected raw file under CC0 license? I would like to write about the issue at my Swedish web page.

Sure, I am happy to. What steps do I have to take to submit it? I'm happy for you to just take one of the RAW files I included in the Dropbox link and use it -- either file is fine with me.

Or do you want me to submit it through some formal channel (using the link provided above)?

Thanks again for your help.

 Hadrian R's gear list:Hadrian R's gear list
Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EF 85mm F1.2L II USM Canon EF 100mm F2.8L Macro IS USM Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon Extender EF 2x III +2 more
OP Hadrian R Regular Member • Posts: 142
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

gium wrote:

This is a really good finding. Thanks Hadrian. Hopefully Canon will investigate and fix.

We'll see!

I've had experiences before where Canon has been exceptional at helping diagnose and fix problems, and experiences where they've been absolutely atrocious and almost combative.

Hopefully this is something in the software they can tweak, and it matters enough to Canon to make the fix.

 Hadrian R's gear list:Hadrian R's gear list
Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EF 85mm F1.2L II USM Canon EF 100mm F2.8L Macro IS USM Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon Extender EF 2x III +2 more
Kameratrollet Regular Member • Posts: 456
Re: Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

Hadrian R wrote:

Kameratrollet wrote:

Hadrian, would you like to submit an affected raw file under CC0 license? I would like to write about the issue at my Swedish web page.

Sure, I am happy to. What steps do I have to take to submit it? I'm happy for you to just take one of the RAW files I included in the Dropbox link and use it -- either file is fine with me.

Or do you want me to submit it through some formal channel (using the link provided above)?

Thanks again for your help.

I am happy with that answer too. Thank you very much!

J.K.T. Regular Member • Posts: 264
Re: Try DPP

shawnphoto wrote:

I would but it doesn’t run on my system... AMD 3900X

Really? Do you mean that DPP in general doesn't run on Ryzen? If so, that minor detail should be much better known. Might have a minor impact on my near future build...

 J.K.T.'s gear list:J.K.T.'s gear list
Canon EOS 7D Canon EOS 7D Mark II Canon EOS RP Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM Canon EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM +7 more
Kameratrollet Regular Member • Posts: 456
Re: Try DPP

J.K.T. wrote:

shawnphoto wrote:

I would but it doesn’t run on my system... AMD 3900X

Really? Do you mean that DPP in general doesn't run on Ryzen? If so, that minor detail should be much better known. Might have a minor impact on my near future build...

Works with AMD Threadripper 1950x and Windows 10 (Virtualbox because I use Ubuntu as main OS) but I have had some BIOS updates since 1950x was released.

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