Fuji gets titanium, Olympus gets...plastic?

Started 3 months ago | Discussions
absquatulate Forum Pro • Posts: 10,960
Re: Fuji gets titanium, Olympus gets...plastic?
4

LoneTree1 wrote:

New Fuji has a titanium (skin?) body. Nice to see that coming back from the SLR days. Yes, I know. The Fuji costs more. Quality instead of cost-cutting usually does.

I used to have the Fuji 55-200mm lens, which was of metal construction, which made it heavier, though it was nicely built. That is until I dropped the camera bag it was in, and something was damaged inside the lens, making it stiffer and noisier to zoom. I've done similar with other plastic composite lenses and never had an issue. After that my enthusiasm for modern metal lens designs cooled significantly. Most of my legacy lenses are made of metal, some of them beautifully so ( Takumars in particular ), but if I drop them, as I did in the case of an OM 28mm F2.8, they're toast. They don't bounce and they don't cope with the impact like a decent composite lens can. Moral of the story? be careful what you wish for, pretty doesn't mean robust.

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Wu Jiaqiu
Wu Jiaqiu Forum Pro • Posts: 25,247
Re: Fuji gets titanium, Olympus gets...plastic?
6

absquatulate wrote:

LoneTree1 wrote:

New Fuji has a titanium (skin?) body. Nice to see that coming back from the SLR days. Yes, I know. The Fuji costs more. Quality instead of cost-cutting usually does.

I used to have the Fuji 55-200mm lens, which was of metal construction, which made it heavier, though it was nicely built. That is until I dropped the camera bag it was in, and something was damaged inside the lens, making it stiffer and noisier to zoom. I've done similar with other plastic composite lenses and never had an issue. After that my enthusiasm for modern metal lens designs cooled significantly. Most of my legacy lenses are made of metal, some of them beautifully so ( Takumars in particular ), but if I drop them, as I did in the case of an OM 28mm F2.8, they're toast. They don't bounce and they don't cope with the impact like a decent composite lens can. Moral of the story? be careful what you wish for, pretty doesn't mean robust.

i would say the moral of the story is to stop dropping your camera gear

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jwilliams Veteran Member • Posts: 4,920
Sometimes ...
4

Sometimes plastic is expensive too.  Just look at the EM5 III.

Really I have on problem with high quality plastics being used in my camera bodies and lenses.   Just don't ask me to pay the same price or more as something we all know is more expensive to manufacture.

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Jonathan

Gary from Seattle Veteran Member • Posts: 3,978
Re: Titanium?
1

dinoSnake wrote:

pdelux wrote:

HRC2016 wrote:

Why would anyone need titanium? Bragging rights?

Just go out and take pictures.

Obviously he is taking Astro shots ---- in space..

Ironic how quickly the tide turns to supporting plastics, when for the past 7 years on this board the metal construction of many Olympus cameras was enthusiastically advanced as a major selling point over the competition...

Do you own a tripod, or tennis racket?.....polycarbonate plastics are lighter and stronger....but I suppose it is the word the bothers you, not the construction. Try "polycarbonate".

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MEDISN
MEDISN Senior Member • Posts: 1,063
Re: Fuji opts for artificial price / artificial value hike
1

Raist3d wrote:

MEDISN wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

MEDISN wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

Zvonimir Tosic wrote:

LoneTree1 wrote:

New Fuji has a titanium (skin?) body. Nice to see that coming back from the SLR days. Yes, I know. The Fuji costs more. Quality instead of cost-cutting usually does.

If Nikon had issued the X-Pro3 w/ titanium top plate, people would be SMEARING them with sniggers, laughs and mud, found one million reasons why such a camera is badly designed, larger than some FF mirrorless, adds premium materials only to inflate the price on components that basically cost $500.

That would be people's take on Nikon X-Pro3.

But many do not realise the Fujifilm actually did that: added totally nonessential finish as an excuse to raise the asking price, on what is, in essence, LESS and more complicated than found in their other cameras that cost less and are easier to use.

With E-M5Mk3, though, Olympus did the opposite; they created a new category of a camera, for those users that appreciate image taking power in the lightest package possible. I like this approach better because the goal and execution are excellent, and down to earth.

Well imagine this. Fuji has several camera models and they also offer a small light model. that is current, modern- also it's less than $900 USD

Also lacks weather sealing and IBIS. Add those to it and what’s the new size, weight and price?

That is true. It's all tradeoffs. You gain in turn the advantages the bigger sensor brings. And save also $400 USD. Point is- there are several valid markets here. The person I am replying to is criticizing Fuji film as if they had done nothing.

Whether the EM5.3 brings something unique to the table - or not- is besides the point. Thats' why I said this doesn't mean the Em5.3 is bad or anything, not sure why you are so defensive.

and doesn't use years old sensor technology, but the same as the flagships in their line up - XT3 and Xpro3.

BSI has been in APS-C since 2014. “Years old sensor technology” lol

The sensor is 26MP BSI and uses copper interconnect. It's way newer than m43rds sensors

A distinction without a difference.

Oh no no, there's a difference.

Does it count if only you pretend it's there?

The 26 MP is not as old.

Again, a distinction without a difference.

The X-T3 was announced just last year,

Irrelevant.  DR hasn't improved over the old XT2

and it brings the big benefit of reduced rolling shutter.

The 20MP mFT sensor (2016) in the EM1mkII has 1/60 readout.

In exchange how long has the 20 MP been around?

28MP BSI w/PDAF - 2014

20MP mFT w/PDAF 2016

I don't think it's that old.

Samsung was playing this fiddle long before Fuji got around to it.

Then we have the 16 MP sensor still around which has been like ages.

Which the EM5mkIII doesn't have...nice attempt at deflection though!

This doesn't mean the Em5.3 is bad or anything. Just putting in perspective what Fuji has done.

Fuji has a nice lineup but there is nothing as compact as the EM5mkIII with IBIS and weather sealing at ANY price.

Ironically an Xpro3 with the smaller primes in size and weights competes with an EM5MKiii because the weather sealed primes that are small don't exist.

This implies one is limited to small primes. The EM5mkIII with 14-150 is a weather sealed package ($1500) Fuji can’t match. There are more WR mFT primes and zooms than X-system offers.

Certainly but when you go with the bigger lenses the package is no longer as small (which is why they should re-issue the small primes).

Smaller than anything Fuji offers in several focal lengths.

Fuji has the lenses. What it doesn't have is the multi-redundant focal length copies of Olympus and Panasonic that go from OK lenses to the superb.

Fuji's fastest primes aren't weather sealed.  Only the oversized, overpriced zooms are.  mFT offers options for every budget and more focal lengths than Fuji.

It would be great if Olympus re-issued the lenses.

Agree 100%

They should have issued the 45mm and maybe the 17mm or 25mm? I think just two would have gone a long way here.

10mm/2.8, 20mm/2, 50mm/2 - and I would be thrilled

absquatulate Forum Pro • Posts: 10,960
Re: Fuji gets titanium, Olympus gets...plastic?
2

Wu Jiaqiu wrote:

absquatulate wrote:

LoneTree1 wrote:

New Fuji has a titanium (skin?) body. Nice to see that coming back from the SLR days. Yes, I know. The Fuji costs more. Quality instead of cost-cutting usually does.

I used to have the Fuji 55-200mm lens, which was of metal construction, which made it heavier, though it was nicely built. That is until I dropped the camera bag it was in, and something was damaged inside the lens, making it stiffer and noisier to zoom. I've done similar with other plastic composite lenses and never had an issue. After that my enthusiasm for modern metal lens designs cooled significantly. Most of my legacy lenses are made of metal, some of them beautifully so ( Takumars in particular ), but if I drop them, as I did in the case of an OM 28mm F2.8, they're toast. They don't bounce and they don't cope with the impact like a decent composite lens can. Moral of the story? be careful what you wish for, pretty doesn't mean robust.

i would say the moral of the story is to stop dropping your camera gear

Well obviously it's not something I strive to do, but it's inevitable at some stage, in the case of the Fuji zoom it wasn't a high drop and it was in a padded camera bag, I never had that result with any other lens in a bag.

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drj3 Veteran Member • Posts: 9,462
Re: Fuji gets titanium, Olympus gets...plastic?

fft2000 wrote:

drj3 wrote:

MrALLCAPS wrote:

At least it's worth the weight. Can't say the same with the EM5 with it's older sensor, Plastic body, that should be $899 tops. I have a XPro 2, In low light, I could still outperform any M43 camera when it comes to stills. My Primes top any M43 primes easily. Heck, I'll put my Fujicrons against any M43 primes.

I'll take the mFTs where I can hand hold my 12-100 at 1 second and shoot hand held at 600mm on the 2X crop at 1/10 second. Maybe in the next generation Fuji will develop a dual IBIS/OIS combination and a sharp long telephoto lens.

Both talking BS...

mFT has great primes.

And Fuji has IBIS (X-H1) which supports DUAL IS with lenses that have OIS. And they have the 200 f2 that comes with a 1.4 TC. There also is a 2x TC, but I did not find a hint if it's compatible with the 200 f2 (it only mentions the 100-400 and the 50-140). Of course a longer tele prime would be great, there currently is nothing comparable to the Oly 300 f4. But it's wrong to claim there is none. And that 200 f2 lens also supports DUAL IS with the X-H1...

I didn't realize that Fuji's X-H1 supported dual IS. Now why didn't they include it in either the  X-T3 Pro - a higher priced X-T3 with Titanium top/bottom plates, it would have been a much more useful addition than titanium top/bottom plates.

I do think the 200mm f2 is a great addition to the Fuji lenses. It should outperform the available mFTs camera/lenses in low illumination at its focal lengths given the wider aperture and larger sensor.

However, the posters camera and the X-T3 Pro do not have IBIS, so I doubt  " I have a XPro 2, In low light, I could still outperform any M43 camera when it comes to stills." unless the poster uses a tripod.

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drj3

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drj3 Veteran Member • Posts: 9,462
Re: Fuji gets titanium, Olympus gets...plastic?
1

MrALLCAPS wrote:

drj3 wrote:

MrALLCAPS wrote:

drj3 wrote:

LoneTree1 wrote:

New Fuji has a titanium (skin?) body. Nice to see that coming back from the SLR days. Yes, I know. The Fuji costs more. Quality instead of cost-cutting usually does.

At

I don't use zooms, only Primes. And if I did, I'm not interested in anything long as what you're talking about. I'm sure that the 100-400 could easily take that same image. In fact, Olympus Needs IBIS just to compete with other sensors -including 1" sensors.

Only if the user could hand hold the 100-400 with the 2XTC at 2 stops lower than the 5 stop improvement Fuji indicates for the lens.  Even then it would not be as sharp.  Now if Fuji had a 400mm equivalent to their 200mm f2 used with a 2XTC and you used it on the Fuji X-H1 with IBIS+OIS, then you could probably take the same image.

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drj3

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Androole Senior Member • Posts: 1,448
Re: Fuji gets titanium, Olympus gets...plastic?
3

drj3 wrote:

fft2000 wrote:

drj3 wrote:

MrALLCAPS wrote:

At least it's worth the weight. Can't say the same with the EM5 with it's older sensor, Plastic body, that should be $899 tops. I have a XPro 2, In low light, I could still outperform any M43 camera when it comes to stills. My Primes top any M43 primes easily. Heck, I'll put my Fujicrons against any M43 primes.

I'll take the mFTs where I can hand hold my 12-100 at 1 second and shoot hand held at 600mm on the 2X crop at 1/10 second. Maybe in the next generation Fuji will develop a dual IBIS/OIS combination and a sharp long telephoto lens.

Both talking BS...

mFT has great primes.

And Fuji has IBIS (X-H1) which supports DUAL IS with lenses that have OIS. And they have the 200 f2 that comes with a 1.4 TC. There also is a 2x TC, but I did not find a hint if it's compatible with the 200 f2 (it only mentions the 100-400 and the 50-140). Of course a longer tele prime would be great, there currently is nothing comparable to the Oly 300 f4. But it's wrong to claim there is none. And that 200 f2 lens also supports DUAL IS with the X-H1...

I didn't realize that Fuji's X-H1 supported dual IS. Now why didn't they include it in either the X-T3 Pro - a higher priced X-T3 with Titanium top/bottom plates, it would have been a much more useful addition than titanium top/bottom plates.

I do think the 200mm f2 is a great addition to the Fuji lenses. It should outperform the available mFTs camera/lenses in low illumination at its focal lengths given the wider aperture and larger sensor.

However, the posters camera and the X-T3 Pro do not have IBIS, so I doubt " I have a XPro 2, In low light, I could still outperform any M43 camera when it comes to stills." unless the poster uses a tripod.

Whenever people talk about sensor performance that radically deviates from equivalence, you can pretty much just ignore them.

The XPro2 sensor is not significantly better than that in modern M4/3 cameras.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison?attr18=lowlight&attr13_0=fujifilm_xpro2&attr13_1=panasonic_dcg9&attr13_2=fujifilm_xpro2&attr13_3=olympus_em1ii&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=1600&attr16_1=1600&attr16_2=3200&attr16_3=1600&attr126_1=1&attr126_2=1&attr126_3=1&attr171_0=1&attr171_2=1&normalization=full&widget=1&x=-0.47169322823773085&y=-0.8742590956116906

As you can see, in terms of luminance noise it's roughly 1 stop better, though it has a clearly softer output, so noise reduction would probably even the playing field even more.

In terms of chroma noise, it does better, but that's simply because of DPReview's methodology - they reduce chroma noise reduction at 0 for all camera RAWs, but Fuji's demosaicing already includes chroma noise reduction (probably necessary due to the X-Trans pixel structure). With ACR's default chroma noise import setting of 25, there is very little difference.

In the end, the result is somewhere in the range of 2/3 - 1 EV of noise improvement. In other words, exactly what you'd expect.

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LoneTree1
OP LoneTree1 Senior Member • Posts: 2,128
Re: How does a Titanium Body improve Images ??? nt

Eric Nepean wrote:

It "probably" doesn't  It's just nice to have as is any exterior embellishment that improves the look or feel of the camera.

TomFid Veteran Member • Posts: 3,327
Re: enough with the metal obsession
2

Photo Pete wrote:

TomFid wrote:

Are you going to pound nails with your camera?

Personally, I'm happy to have polycarbonate. It won't frost up as much in cold weather, and the black edges won't wear off.

I'm much more worried about breaking a lens, lens mount, LCD panel, or control dial than I am about breaking the body itself.

I admit that there's a certain allure to the feel of metal, but I don't think it's particularly rational, and I don't need it to stroke my ego.

Having products which feel good when you use them is nothing to do with ego. Of course, if you want to brag about what you can afford then better built products can help you do that too if you wish.

personally, I think that using significant amounts of plastic to construct a camera which costs £1000 is a really silly cost saving measure.... and if the use of the plastic is also used to create a lot of decorative frippery in the mouldings then it shows a real lack of class.

I would agree with you if there was any evidence that plastic was an inferior material, i.e. more likely to break by any significant margin. Absent that (I'm all ears), I think use of metal for metal's sake is in itself decorative frippery.

I don't really care one way or the other, because plus or minus $100 wouldn't change my thinking. But I'm kind of amazed that people are simultaneously outraged by the high price, and outraged by the use of plastic, and drooling over a hyper-expensive, exotic metal alternative that omits crucial features. Maybe these are not the same people.

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Skeeterbytes Forum Pro • Posts: 16,908
Re: Quality plus price break! Yes!

You've inspired me--I'm going out to find myself a Corkflex XYZ-123!

Cheers,

Rick

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Skeeterbytes Forum Pro • Posts: 16,908
Re: enough with the metal obsession
3

Is it generally known the body of most expensive lens Oly has ever sold is...plastic?

Cheers,

Rick

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Eric Nepean
Eric Nepean Veteran Member • Posts: 4,605
Re: EM bands

Coasting wrote:

A plastic camera god what are Olympus thinking please don't leave it in the sun.The company really has lost their way from the heritage cameras that they based the new M43 cameras on.Im don't know but I have a feeling if you wants a blue print on im lost make a plastic camera and full pro E-M1X ans see how the market responds

LOL Self PPanicker there.

I used the G1 camera for many years for a lot of outdoor work.

That camera was almost all plastic and I never had a problem due to the plastic (actually, I never had a problem with that camera at all).

I didn't have a problem if I left the camera in the sun, nor when I took the camera on a winter ski trip and used it fully chilled at -20C.

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Cheers
Eric

merijnwijnen Regular Member • Posts: 127
Re: Titanium?
2

Polycarbonate ( or simular thermoplastics) are plenty strong and stiff (which is not the same, although easily confused) for cameras, but totally different from the carbon composites used in expensive tripods and tennis rackets.

Regards,

Merijn

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Merijn Wijnen

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Aaron801 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,284
Yeah, I won;t be buying one but...
1

... if I had that kind of cash burning a hole in my pocket, I might because I like the design of the camera... for the most part. I think that I could get over the plastic as I know that the thing is well made, but the fact that it isn't metal would probably bug me a bit. At the end of the day functionality is more important to me than feel/aesthetics but that being said, I do very much prefer the feel of something that's metal rather than plastic. I think that it was probably a mistake for Olympus to make it this way as more folks would probably prefer that it was metal even if it weighs a bit more.

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Peter Del Veteran Member • Posts: 5,836
I'll take plastic over metal if it saves weight
2
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bluehighwayman Contributing Member • Posts: 666
Re: Fuji gets titanium, Olympus gets...plastic?
5

Wildalaskaken wrote:

orca_kkl wrote:

justmeMN wrote:

My shiny stainless steel revolver looks way better than a Glock.

The brushed SS revolvers from S&W look really nice!

Guns and cameras attract the same technical and opinionated crowd

After attending a hearing concerning guns I'd say that guns attract a very large proportion of fringe people not even remotely interested in things like cameras.  Also a very high percentage of frightened individuals who need a gun to feel whole.  Cameras are for capturing the essence of life guns are made for the destruction of it!

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TheEye
TheEye Veteran Member • Posts: 4,763
Plastic strap lug anchors

...would be the real test of strength since even the metal ones tend to fall off. 

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Eric Nepean
Eric Nepean Veteran Member • Posts: 4,605
Re: How does a Titanium Body improve Images ??? nt

LoneTree1 wrote:

Eric Nepean wrote:

It "probably" doesn't It's just nice to have as is any exterior embellishment that improves the look or feel of the camera.

Agreed

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Cheers
Eric

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