f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv

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Guy Churchward
Guy Churchward Regular Member • Posts: 410
f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv

For the life of me I cannot figure out how to manually step the F down and have a fast shutter speed on the camera... hints welcome please... Thx Guy

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Jeff Bondono Regular Member • Posts: 298
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv
3

Switch the mode dial to Manual (M).

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PWPhotography Veteran Member • Posts: 8,868
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv

Jeff Bondono wrote:

Switch the mode dial to Manual (M).

And auto-ISO if want to expose correctly.

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JimKasson
JimKasson Forum Pro • Posts: 26,986
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv
2

PWPhotography wrote:

Jeff Bondono wrote:

Switch the mode dial to Manual (M).

And auto-ISO if want to expose correctly.

I don't recommend Auto-ISO with dual conversion gain cameras like the a7RIV.

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M-1 Junior Member • Posts: 26
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv

Can you elaborate as to why? Is dual conversion gain exclusive to the R series? In any case, what would you recommend? Dialing in the ISO manually as well?

From my understanding the dual ISO gain is at 100 and 320? So we’re just speaking low ISO’s? If ISO’s beyond 320 are needed, Auto ISO is fine?

JimKasson
JimKasson Forum Pro • Posts: 26,986
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv
5

M-1 wrote:

Can you elaborate as to why? Is dual conversion gain exclusive to the R series? In any case, what would you recommend? Dialing in the ISO manually as well?

From my understanding the dual ISO gain is at 100 and 320?

Correct.

So we’re just speaking low ISO’s? If ISO’s beyond 320 are needed, Auto ISO is fine?

Start here:

Also look at this

The a7RIV changes conversation gain at a different place but the principle applies.

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M-1 Junior Member • Posts: 26
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv
1

Thanks for the links. It’s a bit technical but interesting and I’ll try to get my head around it. I was unfamiliar to dual gain ISO and this is new information to me.

I just find it odd that dual gain ISO exists at values so close to each other. If ISO 320 has more dynamic range than say ISO 200/250, wouldn’t it make sense if the camera had an option to skip ISO’s between 200 and 320? Sure this doesn’t work in all situations but considering they’re so close, it’s something post processing can fix.

I find it really surprising that say ISO 250 has a handicap to ISO 320 when it should be the other way around.

Wouldn’t it also make more sense to have designed a sensor with dual gain ISO at 100 and then at 3200 for example? I’ll assume it’s not that easy and a bit more technical than that.

Again this is new to me and I don’t know how I’ll best determine which ISO’s to choose in this range but will read over the links and hope I can make sense of it that it eventually comes naturally to me.

PWPhotography Veteran Member • Posts: 8,868
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv
3

JimKasson wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

Jeff Bondono wrote:

Switch the mode dial to Manual (M).

And auto-ISO if want to expose correctly.

I don't recommend Auto-ISO with dual conversion gain cameras like the a7RIV.

Depend on application. OP seems for sport/wildlife on such 1/2500 shutter. Then shoot at ISO 320 (2nd native ISO) doesn't make a sense under not that bright light (also f/8) - 1) unable to view photos in EVF/LCD on such very dark photos; 2) additional work needed in software to brighten-up photos, no mention many sport/wildlife photog only shoot in JPEG; 3) in such applications usually no meaningful or important highlight need to be protected.

In reality no sport/wildlife photogs are actually doing such way by using ISO 320 in A7r IV or ISO 640 in A9 and A7r III/A7 III and then push dark photos many stops back. I use auto-ISO in such applications - sport and wildlife as most photogs do under Tv (shutter-priority) or M mode.

If for landscape, then by using 2nd native ISO has benefit to protect highlight but OP's 1/2500 seems not for this purpose.

A7r IV's 2nd native ISO 320 which moves about one stop from ISO 640 in A7r III has advantage or disadvantage? I found ISO 640 is pretty ideal in low light in hand-held landscape/cityscape type after leveraging IBIS. This ISO 320 is too close to base ISO 100 in my opinion.

OOC RAW in Lr

processed from above

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PWPhotography Veteran Member • Posts: 8,868
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv
2

M-1 wrote:

Thanks for the links. It’s a bit technical but interesting and I’ll try to get my head around it. I was unfamiliar to dual gain ISO and this is new information to me.

I just find it odd that dual gain ISO exists at values so close to each other. If ISO 320 has more dynamic range than say ISO 200/250, wouldn’t it make sense if the camera had an option to skip ISO’s between 200 and 320? Sure this doesn’t work in all situations but considering they’re so close, it’s something post processing can fix.

I find it really surprising that say ISO 250 has a handicap to ISO 320 when it should be the other way around.

Wouldn’t it also make more sense to have designed a sensor with dual gain ISO at 100 and then at 3200 for example? I’ll assume it’s not that easy and a bit more technical than that.

Again this is new to me and I don’t know how I’ll best determine which ISO’s to choose in this range but will read over the links and hope I can make sense of it that it eventually comes naturally to me.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/3389926460/sony-a7-iii-dynamic-range-and-high-iso-improve-over-its-predecessor

Check this article although is for A7 III but dual-ISO gain concept applied to all other cameras with such sensors.

As you said this 2nd native ISO 320 seems too low and too close to base ISO 100. Unless it has extra benefits I prefer 2nd ISO 640 in other Sony sensors in A7r III, A7 III and A9.

Whether you leverage 2nd native ISO or not depend on applications and depend on actual light. It's not absolute. As the article said it's not wise to use ISO 640 instead of ISO 320 in A7 III or A7r III but would be better to use ISO 640 instead of ISO 1000.

However as I also said in last post if you shoot sport and wildlife you are still better to use native ISO or make easy by leveraging auto-ISO as 1) you can check photos in EVF/LCD; 2) don't need extra work to push up dark photos in software (especially if you shoot in JPEG as many sport PJs do); 3) no important or meaningful highlight need to be protected in such applications. In reality virtually no sport and wildlife photographers will do such way.

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SigZero
SigZero Regular Member • Posts: 428
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv
1

PWPhotography wrote:

As you said this 2nd native ISO 320 seems too low and too close to base ISO 100. Unless it has extra benefits I prefer 2nd ISO 640 in other Sony sensors in A7r III, A7 III and A9.

I think that ISO 320 is not a Sony decision but technological limitation. Dual gain works by adding additional "capacitance" to each pixel in lower gain setting. In case of such dense sensor it is probably difficult to add more to have those iso steps more separated. On the other hand APS-C cameras have similar pixel pitch and dual gain at ISO 640 or 800.

I would also like to have more control over auto-iso in case of dual-gain cameras. In case of A7R4 the lower ISO range have some negative shadow improvement - which means that those ISO's should not be used at all (125-250).

Br, Pawel.

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JimKasson
JimKasson Forum Pro • Posts: 26,986
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv

SigZero wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

As you said this 2nd native ISO 320 seems too low and too close to base ISO 100. Unless it has extra benefits I prefer 2nd ISO 640 in other Sony sensors in A7r III, A7 III and A9.

I think that ISO 320 is not a Sony decision but technological limitation.

If that were the case, the GFX 100  and IQ4 100 would also switch there.

Dual gain works by adding additional "capacitance" to each pixel in lower gain setting. In case of such dense sensor it is probably difficult to add more to have those iso steps more separated. On the other hand APS-C cameras have similar pixel pitch and dual gain at ISO 640 or 800.

I would also like to have more control over auto-iso in case of dual-gain cameras. In case of A7R4 the lower ISO range have some negative shadow improvement - which means that those ISO's should not be used at all (125-250).

Br, Pawel.

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PWPhotography Veteran Member • Posts: 8,868
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv
2

SigZero wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

As you said this 2nd native ISO 320 seems too low and too close to base ISO 100. Unless it has extra benefits I prefer 2nd ISO 640 in other Sony sensors in A7r III, A7 III and A9.

I think that ISO 320 is not a Sony decision but technological limitation. Dual gain works by adding additional "capacitance" to each pixel in lower gain setting. In case of such dense sensor it is probably difficult to add more to have those iso steps more separated. On the other hand APS-C cameras have similar pixel pitch and dual gain at ISO 640 or 800.

Not quite sure about as Jim said in above post.

I would also like to have more control over auto-iso in case of dual-gain cameras.

Not absolute. I'd still use auto-ISO in wildlife and sport. The choice is between convenience and theoretical benefit in protecting highlight. Such as in the photo below I'd be better to capture the moment, and able to check photos right after than a tiny benefit in preserving more highlight that is some grass in background under sunlight that I don't care, why should I care such tiny difference in non-significant area instead of on the main subject? In reality as I said virtually no sport/wildlife photographers actually will shoot at ISO 320 in A7r IV or ISO 640 in A9/A7r III/A7 III and then push very dark photos many stops back in software, merely just to preserve a bit more non-important highlight while sacrificing unable photo chimping, extra steps to push in software...no mention arguably under native ISO it actually has a bit cleaner shadow.

under auto-ISO

In case of A7R4 the lower ISO range have some negative shadow improvement - which means that those ISO's should not be used at all (125-250).

For landscape type yes. But nothing is absolute that depends on applications and priority etc.

Br, Pawel.

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splashy
splashy Veteran Member • Posts: 3,203
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv

Guy Churchward wrote:

For the life of me I cannot figure out how to manually step the F down and have a fast shutter speed on the camera... hints welcome please... Thx Guy

The Iso discussion we had 2 times before, question remains do you like the picture of the lion , or prefer to risk underexpose, in this case because of fixed (low) Iso.

What I don't understand, why spend a small fortune on camera and lenses, if you don't know the existence of manual on the 7 IV camera.

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SigZero
SigZero Regular Member • Posts: 428
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv

JimKasson wrote:

SigZero wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

As you said this 2nd native ISO 320 seems too low and too close to base ISO 100. Unless it has extra benefits I prefer 2nd ISO 640 in other Sony sensors in A7r III, A7 III and A9.

I think that ISO 320 is not a Sony decision but technological limitation.

If that were the case, the GFX 100 and IQ4 100 would also switch there.

Thats why I wrote the paragraph below.

There must be something behind that decission. AFAIK GFX in early firmware also had ISO 320.

Dual gain works by adding additional "capacitance" to each pixel in lower gain setting. In case of such dense sensor it is probably difficult to add more to have those iso steps more separated. On the other hand APS-C cameras have similar pixel pitch and dual gain at ISO 640 or 800.

I would also like to have more control over auto-iso in case of dual-gain cameras. In case of A7R4 the lower ISO range have some negative shadow improvement - which means that those ISO's should not be used at all (125-250).

Br, Pawel.

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Br, Paw

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JimKasson
JimKasson Forum Pro • Posts: 26,986
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv

PWPhotography wrote:

JimKasson wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

Jeff Bondono wrote:

Switch the mode dial to Manual (M).

And auto-ISO if want to expose correctly.

I don't recommend Auto-ISO with dual conversion gain cameras like the a7RIV.

Depend on application. OP seems for sport/wildlife on such 1/2500 shutter. Then shoot at ISO 320 (2nd native ISO) doesn't make a sense under not that bright light (also f/8) - 1) unable to view photos in EVF/LCD on such very dark photos; 2) additional work needed in software to brighten-up photos, no mention many sport/wildlife photog only shoot in JPEG; 3) in such applications usually no meaningful or important highlight need to be protected.

In reality no sport/wildlife photogs are actually doing such way by using ISO 320 in A7r IV or ISO 640 in A9 and A7r III/A7 III and then push dark photos many stops back. I use auto-ISO in such applications - sport and wildlife as most photogs do under Tv (shutter-priority) or M mode.

If for landscape, then by using 2nd native ISO has benefit to protect highlight but OP's 1/2500 seems not for this purpose.

A7r IV's 2nd native ISO 320 which moves about one stop from ISO 640 in A7r III has advantage or disadvantage? I found ISO 640 is pretty ideal in low light in hand-held landscape/cityscape type after leveraging IBIS. This ISO 320 is too close to base ISO 100 in my opinion.

Based on our conversations in the past, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this point. The OP should know that there is another way of working, though.

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PWPhotography Veteran Member • Posts: 8,868
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv
3

JimKasson wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

JimKasson wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

Jeff Bondono wrote:

Switch the mode dial to Manual (M).

And auto-ISO if want to expose correctly.

I don't recommend Auto-ISO with dual conversion gain cameras like the a7RIV.

Depend on application. OP seems for sport/wildlife on such 1/2500 shutter. Then shoot at ISO 320 (2nd native ISO) doesn't make a sense under not that bright light (also f/8) - 1) unable to view photos in EVF/LCD on such very dark photos; 2) additional work needed in software to brighten-up photos, no mention many sport/wildlife photog only shoot in JPEG; 3) in such applications usually no meaningful or important highlight need to be protected.

In reality no sport/wildlife photogs are actually doing such way by using ISO 320 in A7r IV or ISO 640 in A9 and A7r III/A7 III and then push dark photos many stops back. I use auto-ISO in such applications - sport and wildlife as most photogs do under Tv (shutter-priority) or M mode.

If for landscape, then by using 2nd native ISO has benefit to protect highlight but OP's 1/2500 seems not for this purpose.

A7r IV's 2nd native ISO 320 which moves about one stop from ISO 640 in A7r III has advantage or disadvantage? I found ISO 640 is pretty ideal in low light in hand-held landscape/cityscape type after leveraging IBIS. This ISO 320 is too close to base ISO 100 in my opinion.

Based on our conversations in the past, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this point. The OP should know that there is another way of working, though.

I am not disagree theory that you see I actually use in landscape type to leverage 2nd native ISO that I fully aware. But I am just against absolute in practice. I doubt you'd use your A9 in dim light sport at ISO 100 or 640 and then push dark photos many stops up in software, as virtually no sport and wildlife photogs actually doing such way.  So yes I prefer auto-ISO in such applications - in sport, action (airshow etc on jet planes) and wildlife, as actually most photog do.

Sure we need to understand all options but also need to aware each method's pro and con and reality.

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PWPhotography Veteran Member • Posts: 8,868
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv

splashy wrote:

Guy Churchward wrote:

For the life of me I cannot figure out how to manually step the F down and have a fast shutter speed on the camera... hints welcome please... Thx Guy

The Iso discussion we had 2 times before, question remains do you like the picture of the lion , or prefer to risk underexpose, in this case because of fixed (low) Iso.

The pure theorists will tell you under fixed low ISO is not underexposed but under-brightness Remember ISO stop is not part of exposure But in reality we all do by using native ISO in certain applications at least for the right brightness which in practically not that much difference from exposure, at least as labelled in Lr for example, lol.

What I don't understand, why spend a small fortune on camera and lenses, if you don't know the existence of manual on the 7 IV camera.

I personally more care methodology than theory as only final photos matter.

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JimKasson
JimKasson Forum Pro • Posts: 26,986
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv

PWPhotography wrote:

splashy wrote:

Guy Churchward wrote:

For the life of me I cannot figure out how to manually step the F down and have a fast shutter speed on the camera... hints welcome please... Thx Guy

The Iso discussion we had 2 times before, question remains do you like the picture of the lion , or prefer to risk underexpose, in this case because of fixed (low) Iso.

The pure theorists will tell you under fixed low ISO is not underexposed but under-brightness Remember ISO stop is not part of exposure But in reality we all do by using native ISO in certain applications at least for the right brightness which in practically not that much difference from exposure, at least as labelled in Lr for example, lol.

What I don't understand, why spend a small fortune on camera and lenses, if you don't know the existence of manual on the 7 IV camera.

I personally more care methodology than theory as only final photos matter.

My advice in based not only upon a hard-won understanding of how the camera works, but upon actual usage, and the development of a way of working to take maximum advantage of the camera's capabilities. It's a different way of working than that chosen by PWPhotography. His apparently works for him. Mine works for me.

But, in this context, I think the reference to "pure theorists" is insulting.

Jim

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PWPhotography Veteran Member • Posts: 8,868
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv

JimKasson wrote:

PWPhotography wrote:

splashy wrote:

Guy Churchward wrote:

For the life of me I cannot figure out how to manually step the F down and have a fast shutter speed on the camera... hints welcome please... Thx Guy

The Iso discussion we had 2 times before, question remains do you like the picture of the lion , or prefer to risk underexpose, in this case because of fixed (low) Iso.

The pure theorists will tell you under fixed low ISO is not underexposed but under-brightness Remember ISO stop is not part of exposure But in reality we all do by using native ISO in certain applications at least for the right brightness which in practically not that much difference from exposure, at least as labelled in Lr for example, lol.

What I don't understand, why spend a small fortune on camera and lenses, if you don't know the existence of manual on the 7 IV camera.

I personally more care methodology than theory as only final photos matter.

My advice in based not only upon a hard-won understanding of how the camera works, but upon actual usage, and the development of a way of working to take maximum advantage of the camera's capabilities. It's a different way of working than that chosen by PWPhotography. His apparently works for him. Mine works for me.

Really you will use A9 in dim-light sport at ISO 640 and push very dark photos many stops back as otherwise you'd need ISO 3200, 6400, 12800? It will work but you cannot check photos in EVF/LCD and need to process in software with questionable benefits for just preserving highlight a bit more but may also suffer a bit higher shadow noise.

But, in this context, I think the reference to "pure theorists" is insulting.

Not for you so you don't need to fit yourself in. Pure theorists are no any insulting mean but just for some mainly emphasize in theory not in practice and reality.

As you said we all have different preference and priority.  I am very satisfied my 'way' as that delivers the photos in my expectation.

Jim

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Guy Churchward
OP Guy Churchward Regular Member • Posts: 410
Re: f8 and 1/2500 on an A7Riv
1

splashy wrote:

Guy Churchward wrote:

For the life of me I cannot figure out how to manually step the F down and have a fast shutter speed on the camera... hints welcome please... Thx Guy

The Iso discussion we had 2 times before, question remains do you like the picture of the lion , or prefer to risk underexpose, in this case because of fixed (low) Iso.

What I don't understand, why spend a small fortune on camera and lenses, if you don't know the existence of manual on the 7 IV camera.

this is a forum and I am asking question not for trolling... It was suggested to me to open my lens to F8 on a bee picture and I am experimenting/learning the camera ....I know the existence of the manual setting, I could not adjust both settings in that mode last night. knowing this is where to hunt I will go back and figure out why I couldn’t adjust both settings in manual.

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