Ways to try gear.

Started 3 months ago | Discussions
mamallama
mamallama Forum Pro • Posts: 56,656
Re: me, too

Pontoneer wrote:

mamallama wrote:

jrtrent wrote:

Pontoneer wrote:

hawk15 wrote:

I was about to rent a lens for $100.

But then I thought I could also just buy and return.

I've rented before and ended up buying so I'm not just buying with 0 probability to keep.

Has anyone gotten into issues with renting via the buy-and-return method?

Just go into a shop and ask to see/try a demonstration model .

I'm fortunate to have a dealer who is happy to let customers take floor samples out of the store to try outdoors for a while. I haven't had to resort to renting something to see if I'd like it.

And the dealer then sells it as new to someone else if you decide not to buy it?

Why not ?

A display item is still new ( not secondhand ) , unless it has been sold/returned .

True. Never sold at retail but it is not new and unused. I guess people who go to dealers and take the item out for a test drive should not complain when they get a new camera from B&H that has smudge marks on the LCD screen and a shutter count of 300.

When I ran my hi-fi shop , we ALWAYS sold the display model ; the one that the customer had seen/heard working : we knew it was in good order when it left the shop and this eliminated claims of it being faulty or damaged when they got home ; indeed with many items we would deliver and set up free .

If , rarely , a customer insisted on a new , unopened boxed item , it was always opened and tested in front of them - NOTHING LEFT THE SHOP WITHOUT BEING CHECKED .

I have no problem with display items which , legally , are still NEW .

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mamallama
mamallama Forum Pro • Posts: 56,656
Re: Ways to try gear.

Pontoneer wrote:

riveredger wrote:

Pontoneer wrote:

hawk15 wrote:

I was about to rent a lens for $100.

But then I thought I could also just buy and return.

I've rented before and ended up buying so I'm not just buying with 0 probability to keep.

Has anyone gotten into issues with renting via the buy-and-return method?

Just go into a shop and ask to see/try a demonstration model .

And if said shop does not have it available?

there are other shops

They are getting fewer and farther between.

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Pontoneer Veteran Member • Posts: 3,064
Re: me, too

mamallama wrote:

jrtrent wrote:

mamallama wrote:

jrtrent wrote:

Pontoneer wrote:

hawk15 wrote:

I was about to rent a lens for $100.

But then I thought I could also just buy and return.

I've rented before and ended up buying so I'm not just buying with 0 probability to keep.

Has anyone gotten into issues with renting via the buy-and-return method?

Just go into a shop and ask to see/try a demonstration model .

I'm fortunate to have a dealer who is happy to let customers take floor samples out of the store to try outdoors for a while. I haven't had to resort to renting something to see if I'd like it.

And the dealer then sells it as new to someone else if you decide not to buy it?

That would be an awful thing, and I've seen stores that seem to open up a new box, demo the unit, then return it to the box to be sold as new. At the store I'm referring to, floor samples are typically not for sale. Whether I decide to buy that model or not, the floor sample is returned to the display case for other customers to see and try out. My assumption is that it would eventually be sold as a demo model at a discounted price.

That would be interesting to know for sure. Does the store ever have demo model sales at a discounted price. That would confirm your assumption.

That would only be necessary if a display sample were damaged or ‘shop soiled’ . By selling the display sample every time , nothing remained out on the shop floor long enough for it to happen .

On very rare occasions where something was accidentally damaged in the shop , then of course there would be a price reduction; just the same as when a model was superceded , we would sell stock of the old model off at a reduction.

We did not entertain the notion that ‘youve Had your grubby paws on it ; I want a discount or an unopened one ‘ If we had an unopened one it would be brought out , opened and checked ( plugged in and tested )  before we would allow it to leave .

We did not accept returns because someone decided they didn’t like it when they got home ; they either got a demonstration in the shop , or we would offer free demonstrations, without obligation, in the customers home .

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Pontoneer Veteran Member • Posts: 3,064
Re: me, too

mamallama wrote:

Pontoneer wrote:

mamallama wrote:

jrtrent wrote:

Pontoneer wrote:

hawk15 wrote:

I was about to rent a lens for $100.

But then I thought I could also just buy and return.

I've rented before and ended up buying so I'm not just buying with 0 probability to keep.

Has anyone gotten into issues with renting via the buy-and-return method?

Just go into a shop and ask to see/try a demonstration model .

I'm fortunate to have a dealer who is happy to let customers take floor samples out of the store to try outdoors for a while. I haven't had to resort to renting something to see if I'd like it.

And the dealer then sells it as new to someone else if you decide not to buy it?

Why not ?

A display item is still new ( not secondhand ) , unless it has been sold/returned .

True. Never sold at retail but it is not new and unused. I guess people who go to dealers and take the item out for a test drive should not complain when they get a new camera from B&H that has smudge marks on the LCD screen and a shutter count of 300.

When I ran my hi-fi shop , we ALWAYS sold the display model ; the one that the customer had seen/heard working : we knew it was in good order when it left the shop and this eliminated claims of it being faulty or damaged when they got home ; indeed with many items we would deliver and set up free .

If , rarely , a customer insisted on a new , unopened boxed item , it was always opened and tested in front of them - NOTHING LEFT THE SHOP WITHOUT BEING CHECKED .

I have no problem with display items which , legally , are still NEW .

If something has smudge marks they haven’t bothered to clean it ; I’d also consider 300 clicks excessive, but 10 or 20 , consistent with checking and perhaps showing to a couple of customers before the third one saw it , perfectly acceptable .

If an item is boxed back up properly , you as a customer would have no way of telling .

My Pentax K-1 , which I bought in January 2018 by mail order , was on display in the shop window ( the dealer told me ) . It was discounted , not because of that but because the K-1ii had just been announced ( hence a whopping £400 price reduction ) . When it arrived the camera was indistinguishable from an unopened one , all the packing perfect , the protective films still on the LCD panels , and twelve clicks on the counter , oh and of course with the full two years Pentax Pro dealer warranty ( which is still in force ) .

A new car with delivery mileage ( up to 100 miles or so ) is still a new car , and all cars have a few miles on them before they reach the dealer .

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mamallama
mamallama Forum Pro • Posts: 56,656
Re: me, too

Labe wrote:

mamallama wrote:

jrtrent wrote:

mamallama wrote:

jrtrent wrote:

Pontoneer wrote:

hawk15 wrote:

I was about to rent a lens for $100.

But then I thought I could also just buy and return.

I've rented before and ended up buying so I'm not just buying with 0 probability to keep.

Has anyone gotten into issues with renting via the buy-and-return method?

Just go into a shop and ask to see/try a demonstration model .

I'm fortunate to have a dealer who is happy to let customers take floor samples out of the store to try outdoors for a while. I haven't had to resort to renting something to see if I'd like it.

And the dealer then sells it as new to someone else if you decide not to buy it?

That would be an awful thing, and I've seen stores that seem to open up a new box, demo the unit, then return it to the box to be sold as new. At the store I'm referring to, floor samples are typically not for sale. Whether I decide to buy that model or not, the floor sample is returned to the display case for other customers to see and try out. My assumption is that it would eventually be sold as a demo model at a discounted price.

That would be interesting to know for sure. Does the store ever have demo model sales at a discounted price. That would confirm your assumption.

This is what my local store does

Just curious what they would classify as Demo condition. If a customer come in to check out an item like this, would they put it on the shelf as a marked down Demo item?

"I'm fortunate to have a dealer who is happy to let customers take floor samples out of the store to try outdoors for a while. I haven't had to resort to renting something to see if I'd like it."

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Pontoneer Veteran Member • Posts: 3,064
Re: Ways to try gear.
1

mamallama wrote:

Pontoneer wrote:

riveredger wrote:

Pontoneer wrote:

hawk15 wrote:

I was about to rent a lens for $100.

But then I thought I could also just buy and return.

I've rented before and ended up buying so I'm not just buying with 0 probability to keep.

Has anyone gotten into issues with renting via the buy-and-return method?

Just go into a shop and ask to see/try a demonstration model .

And if said shop does not have it available?

there are other shops

They are getting fewer and farther between.

Indeed , and I am fortunate in having three good dealers within easy traveling distance, and several more a bit further away .

However , for an important purchase , I would be , and have done in the past , be willing to travel a significant distance to see / try something ( once drove 300 miles each way to audition a pair of loudspeakers , and bought them ) .

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pforsell
pforsell Senior Member • Posts: 2,272
Re: Ways to try gear.

hawk15 wrote:

I was about to rent a lens for $100.

But then I thought I could also just buy and return.

I've rented before and ended up buying so I'm not just buying with 0 probability to keep.

Has anyone gotten into issues with renting via the buy-and-return method?

If a shop volunteers a service where they let you return a lens, I see no problem in using  that service. As it is, it is a service they want the customers to use because nobody is forcing their hand. I'd use it and say thank you.

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Peter

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Pontoneer Veteran Member • Posts: 3,064
Re: me, too

mamallama wrote:

Labe wrote:

mamallama wrote:

jrtrent wrote:

mamallama wrote:

jrtrent wrote:

Pontoneer wrote:

hawk15 wrote:

I was about to rent a lens for $100.

But then I thought I could also just buy and return.

I've rented before and ended up buying so I'm not just buying with 0 probability to keep.

Has anyone gotten into issues with renting via the buy-and-return method?

Just go into a shop and ask to see/try a demonstration model .

I'm fortunate to have a dealer who is happy to let customers take floor samples out of the store to try outdoors for a while. I haven't had to resort to renting something to see if I'd like it.

And the dealer then sells it as new to someone else if you decide not to buy it?

That would be an awful thing, and I've seen stores that seem to open up a new box, demo the unit, then return it to the box to be sold as new. At the store I'm referring to, floor samples are typically not for sale. Whether I decide to buy that model or not, the floor sample is returned to the display case for other customers to see and try out. My assumption is that it would eventually be sold as a demo model at a discounted price.

That would be interesting to know for sure. Does the store ever have demo model sales at a discounted price. That would confirm your assumption.

This is what my local store does

Just curious what they would classify as Demo condition. If a customer come in to check out an item like this, would they put it on the shelf as a marked down Demo item?

"I'm fortunate to have a dealer who is happy to let customers take floor samples out of the store to try outdoors for a while. I haven't had to resort to renting something to see if I'd like it."

I too have gone into camera shops where I’ve asked to look at display items , either from the window , behind the counter or in a display cabinet , and been handed the item to look at ; on occasion with telephoto lenses , a shop assistant has stepped out into the street with me to let me look through it.

If there ended up being any fingerprints on an item as a result of that , I’d expect them to be cleaned off , unless they were my fingerprints and I was buying the item there and then , but it is normal good courtesy to clean an item and repackage it correctly for a customer who is buying it as new .

This is quite different to places like Curry’s or Costco ( not the type of place I’d buy from ) where they may indeed have the same tired looking display items on open stands which have been there for weeks or even months and handled by literally hundreds of people , and mist of which will be filthy if not actually damaged .

Going back to the new car analogy , would you not expect your new car to be washed/valeted at the dealership , as part of the PDI process before being handed over , or would you feel that having got dirty/dusty in the delivery process and having a few miles on it made it no longer ‘new’ .

Although some new cars with electronic odometers now allow a dealer reset to zero one time and as long as a certain mileage ( 100 if memory serves ) has not been exceeded . The customer would never know .

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Doug J Forum Pro • Posts: 10,443
Re: Ways to try gear.
5

scrup wrote:

buy from Amazon and return if its not what you expect.

No shame in doing it. Amazon will sell it through their warehouse as open box item. Someone will get a deal, you get to try a lens risk free.

Amazon is known to cancel high-return accounts, and those of anyone associated with the person making the returns, due to the losses they incur. "Someone will get a deal" means other customers have to pay for the lost revenue & profit.

An occasional return for good reason is to be expected and accepted, but a person just wanting to try a product with no intention of buying it is unreasonable. The same with cherry pickers - order several of the same item with the intention of returning most if not all.

Other retailers have done the same thing and/or changed their return policies. Businesses are adapting to reduce their losses resulting from the poor ethics of some customers.

Cheers,
Doug

riveredger Veteran Member • Posts: 3,653
Re: Ways to try gear.

Pontoneer wrote:

mamallama wrote:

Pontoneer wrote:

riveredger wrote:

Pontoneer wrote:

hawk15 wrote:

I was about to rent a lens for $100.

But then I thought I could also just buy and return.

I've rented before and ended up buying so I'm not just buying with 0 probability to keep.

Has anyone gotten into issues with renting via the buy-and-return method?

Just go into a shop and ask to see/try a demonstration model .

And if said shop does not have it available?

there are other shops

They are getting fewer and farther between.

Indeed , and I am fortunate in having three good dealers within easy traveling distance, and several more a bit further away .

However , for an important purchase , I would be , and have done in the past , be willing to travel a significant distance to see / try something ( once drove 300 miles each way to audition a pair of loudspeakers , and bought them ) .

That is not something I would do.

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pcrc11 Regular Member • Posts: 429
Re: Ways to try gear.
2

scrup wrote:

buy from Amazon and return if its not what you expect.

No shame in doing it. Amazon will sell it through their warehouse as open box item. Someone will get a deal, you get to try a lens risk free.

So who eats the loss?? Not only is the retailer out the diminished value of the item but also out the shipping cost both ways. I know, who cares, it is Amazon, surely the biggest retailer in the world can absorb a few dollars without a hurt to their bottom line. However this type of behavior has also crept into all the other online selling platforms where you most likely are dealing with a small individual seller and not a faceless corporation.

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pcrc11 Regular Member • Posts: 429
Re: Ways to try gear.
7

hawk15 wrote:

Has anyone gotten into issues with renting via the buy-and-return method?

How do you consider this "renting". When you return it are you including some form of reimbursement to the retailer for use of the item and the diminished value. If not it is considered stealing in my book. And if you are ok with it than it goes a long way in showing what kind of person you really are.

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Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 26,433
Re: Ways to try gear.
1

hawk15 wrote:

I was about to rent a lens for $100.

But then I thought I could also just buy and return.

I've rented before and ended up buying so I'm not just buying with 0 probability to keep.

Has anyone gotten into issues with renting via the buy-and-return method?

I would never buy a lens with the intention of returning it.  If I buy something, it's with the intention of keeping it.  To me, buying something knowing I'm only keeping it for the weekend is unethical.  But maybe that's just me.

If you want to go that route, the 2 rental places I've used - borrowlenses.com and lensrentals.com - have a purchase option that will put the rental or at least a large portion of it toward the purchase.

Mark

Pontoneer Veteran Member • Posts: 3,064
Re: Ways to try gear.

pforsell wrote:

hawk15 wrote:

I was about to rent a lens for $100.

But then I thought I could also just buy and return.

I've rented before and ended up buying so I'm not just buying with 0 probability to keep.

Has anyone gotten into issues with renting via the buy-and-return method?

If a shop volunteers a service where they let you return a lens, I see no problem in using that service. As it is, it is a service they want the customers to use because nobody is forcing their hand. I'd use it and say thank you.

Indeed , here in the UK , distance selling regulations give you a mandatory right of return on anything you purchase without stepping onto the vendors premises , this applies not only to goods , like cameras , but also to services like insurance .

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Gerry Winterbourne Forum Pro • Posts: 16,423
Re: Ways to try gear.
6

hawk15 wrote:

Chaplain Mark wrote:

The buy-try-and-return sequence places an unfair burden on the retailer, whether or not the retailer passes the burden along to the their customer base.

If they are able to stay in business, then it means you've covered the burden as another customer.

It means that you have forced every other customer to pay more for every single purchase. How can you justify that?

As mentioned, I don't buy with the intent to return.

If you buy a lens (or anything else) with the firm intention of keeping, and return it only if it is defective that's one thing. But you are asking about buying it effectively on trial - I know that because if you genuinely intended to buy and keep it you wouldn't even be asking the question - returning just wouldn't be in your mind.

Also don't want to subsidize those who do. Which would lead to buying from a place with a restocking fee or with a no return policy.

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Gerry
___________________________________________
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Stroker Forum Member • Posts: 82
Re: Ways to try gear.

My understanding is that the NY camera stores offer rentals. Awhile back, they had shutter count limits, but were kind enough to do away with them.

I'd make them your first stop.

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riveredger Veteran Member • Posts: 3,653
Re: Ways to try gear.

pcrc11 wrote:

scrup wrote:

buy from Amazon and return if its not what you expect.

No shame in doing it. Amazon will sell it through their warehouse as open box item. Someone will get a deal, you get to try a lens risk free.

So who eats the loss?? Not only is the retailer out the diminished value of the item but also out the shipping cost both ways. I know, who cares, it is Amazon, surely the biggest retailer in the world can absorb a few dollars without a hurt to their bottom line. However this type of behavior has also crept into all the other online selling platforms where you most likely are dealing with a small individual seller and not a faceless corporation.

This is the cost of doing business in today's world.  Note that these companies are not paying for stores and all of the associsted costs.

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riveredger Veteran Member • Posts: 3,653
Re: me, too
3

Pontoneer wrote:

mamallama wrote:

Pontoneer wrote:

mamallama wrote:

jrtrent wrote:

Pontoneer wrote:

hawk15 wrote:

I was about to rent a lens for $100.

But then I thought I could also just buy and return.

I've rented before and ended up buying so I'm not just buying with 0 probability to keep.

Has anyone gotten into issues with renting via the buy-and-return method?

Just go into a shop and ask to see/try a demonstration model .

I'm fortunate to have a dealer who is happy to let customers take floor samples out of the store to try outdoors for a while. I haven't had to resort to renting something to see if I'd like it.

And the dealer then sells it as new to someone else if you decide not to buy it?

Why not ?

A display item is still new ( not secondhand ) , unless it has been sold/returned .

True. Never sold at retail but it is not new and unused. I guess people who go to dealers and take the item out for a test drive should not complain when they get a new camera from B&H that has smudge marks on the LCD screen and a shutter count of 300.

When I ran my hi-fi shop , we ALWAYS sold the display model ; the one that the customer had seen/heard working : we knew it was in good order when it left the shop and this eliminated claims of it being faulty or damaged when they got home ; indeed with many items we would deliver and set up free .

If , rarely , a customer insisted on a new , unopened boxed item , it was always opened and tested in front of them - NOTHING LEFT THE SHOP WITHOUT BEING CHECKED .

I have no problem with display items which , legally , are still NEW .

If something has smudge marks they haven’t bothered to clean it ; I’d also consider 300 clicks excessive, but 10 or 20 , consistent with checking and perhaps showing to a couple of customers before the third one saw it , perfectly acceptable .

If an item is boxed back up properly , you as a customer would have no way of telling .

Which makes it deceitful.

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sybersitizen Forum Pro • Posts: 14,830
Re: Ways to try gear.

pcrc11 wrote:

hawk15 wrote:

Has anyone gotten into issues with renting via the buy-and-return method?

How do you consider this "renting". When you return it are you including some form of reimbursement to the retailer for use of the item and the diminished value. If not it is considered stealing in my book. And if you are ok with it than it goes a long way in showing what kind of person you really are.

Those are two interesting takes.

One says buying and returning is renting (and it might be if there's a restocking fee that represents an ultimate profit for the seller).

Another says buying and returning is stealing (and it might be if it represents an ultimate loss in resale value for the seller).

A third would say buying and returning is borrowing (and it might be if the seller experiences no monetary gain or loss during the buying/returning process). However, the seller still experiences inconvenience and wasted time doing this. The borrower would be - correctly or incorrectly - assuming the seller's willingness to 'help a guy out', sort of like a neighbor would.

Do most people who buy and return in order to 'try' gear assume they are dealing with a friendly neighbor?

Are there other takes?

Bob Senior Member • Posts: 1,392
Re: Ways to try gear.
1

The “buy and return” method is unethical IMHO if you’re just wanting to try something out.

It takes advantage of companies’ liberal return policies.   If you don’t believe me, call B&H, speak with a sales rep, and tell them what you have in mind.   If they’re cool with it, then great, I stand corrected.

If I’m curious about gear, I’ll buy It used on ebay then sell it later.   Sure, there will be some transaction costs, but cheaper than renting.

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