Customer Returns, Lens/Camera

Started 2 months ago | Discussions
double00 Regular Member • Posts: 132
Customer Returns, Lens/Camera
1

Anyone know what B&H, Adorama, etc. does with a lens or camera that a customer returns?

I have noticed individuals purchasing multiple copies of a lens, testing to see which they feel is the best copy and sending the others back.

Is there a way the next person purchasing the same model lens or camera can be assured they don't receive a lens/camera that has been returned after someone has played with it for up to a month?

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puttin
puttin Veteran Member • Posts: 7,609
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera

double00 wrote:

Anyone know what B&H, Adorama, etc. does with a lens or camera that a customer returns?

I have noticed individuals purchasing multiple copies of a lens, testing to see which they feel is the best copy and sending the others back.

Is there a way the next person purchasing the same model lens or camera can be assured they don't receive a lens/camera that has been returned after someone has played with it for up to a month?

They should sell them as opened box at a discount. Hard to tell if a lens has been used but a camera would be easy to tell if used.

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a_c_skinner Veteran Member • Posts: 8,558
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera
2

Swings and roundabouts, you cannot have liberal returns without needing to sell non-faulty returns at more or less the original price.

Some UK retailers (not photo AFAIK, so far) are declining to trade further with people who return a lot of stuff.

-- hide signature --

Andrew Skinner

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ikaika777 Senior Member • Posts: 2,182
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera

It’s against the law for retailers to sell used products “as new”. They have to sell it as used or open box/demo. Places like B&H and Adorama offer 30 days return policy on used/open box/demo products. There’s nothing worse than buying someone else’s lemon.

-- hide signature --

After all is said and done and your photo is hanging on the wall, no one is going to know or care what camera, lens, or what post processing you used. All they care about is if the image moves them.
I’m not hung up on the Bokeh fad because I’m too busy chasing shadows.

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Morris0
Morris0 Forum Pro • Posts: 10,538
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera

B&H and Adorama list this if you click the rating. Read customer reviews on Amazon and you will get your answer.

Morris

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Ed B
Ed B Forum Pro • Posts: 10,492
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera
2

ikaika777 wrote:

It’s against the law for retailers to sell used products “as new”. They have to sell it as used or open box/demo. Places like B&H and Adorama offer 30 days return policy on used/open box/demo products. There’s nothing worse than buying someone else’s lemon.

That's 100% false.

There are no laws, of this kind, that protect U.S. consumers.

B&H, along with every other large retailer, that has liberal return policies, inspects, cleans and repacks returns and if there are no visual defects to the equipment or the box, the items are resold as new.

B&H has admitted this several times in the past.

If the box is damaged or there are minor imperfections (scratches, etc.) the item will be sold as an "open box".

Returned items that actually have a manufacturer's defect are returned to the manufacturer but if there no manufacturer's defect they are sold as stated above.

Liberal return policies are great for some people but they're like a pyramid scheme and sooner or later, someone gets stuck with the used camera someone else tried, used, took on vacation and then returned for a refund.

It happens every day, here in the States.

I do agree that in other countries this is against the law but most other countries don't have liberal return policies.

Todd Jones
Todd Jones Senior Member • Posts: 1,485
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera
1

ikaika777 wrote:

It’s against the law for retailers to sell used products “as new”. They have to sell it as used or open box/demo. Places like B&H and Adorama offer 30 days return policy on used/open box/demo products. There’s nothing worse than buying someone else’s lemon.

The problem is what is "used"? They want the item returned in "like new condition" with all the original packaging including blank warranty card. I'm sorry but i could theoretically drop a lens on the carpet, jar something inside causing a performance issue now or later and it's getting  sold to the next guy. Do I have proof? Nope. There are a LOT of lenses getting returned, by me, you and all the YouTube testers and I just don't think B&H or anyone else is selling that many USED lenses.

-- hide signature --

After all is said and done and your photo is hanging on the wall, no one is going to know or care what camera, lens, or what post processing you used. All they care about is if the image moves them.
I’m not hung up on the Bokeh fad because I’m too busy chasing shadows.

-- hide signature --

Todd
I'm His, John 6:44

 Todd Jones's gear list:Todd Jones's gear list
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Don Davis
Don Davis Contributing Member • Posts: 585
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera
2

Ed B wrote:

ikaika777 wrote:

It’s against the law for retailers to sell used products “as new”. They have to sell it as used or open box/demo. Places like B&H and Adorama offer 30 days return policy on used/open box/demo products. There’s nothing worse than buying someone else’s lemon.

That's 100% false.

There are no laws, of this kind, that protect U.S. consumers.

B&H, along with every other large retailer, that has liberal return policies, inspects, cleans and repacks returns and if there are no visual defects to the equipment or the box, the items are resold as new.

B&H has admitted this several times in the past.

If the box is damaged or there are minor imperfections (scratches, etc.) the item will be sold as an "open box".

Returned items that actually have a manufacturer's defect are returned to the manufacturer but if there no manufacturer's defect they are sold as stated above.

Liberal return policies are great for some people but they're like a pyramid scheme and sooner or later, someone gets stuck with the used camera someone else tried, used, took on vacation and then returned for a refund.

It happens every day, here in the States.

I do agree that in other countries this is against the law but most other countries don't have liberal return policies.

That has been my experience. It has not happened often, but twice from B&H and once from Amazon I have received camera bodies that were clearly customer returns or in-store demo units, as evidenced by broken seal, fingerprints, and settings already entered. IN both cases I returned the item.

Don

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Todd Jones
Todd Jones Senior Member • Posts: 1,485
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera
2

Ed B wrote:

ikaika777 wrote:

It’s against the law for retailers to sell used products “as new”. They have to sell it as used or open box/demo. Places like B&H and Adorama offer 30 days return policy on used/open box/demo products. There’s nothing worse than buying someone else’s lemon.

That's 100% false.

There are no laws, of this kind, that protect U.S. consumers.

B&H, along with every other large retailer, that has liberal return policies, inspects, cleans and repacks returns and if there are no visual defects to the equipment or the box, the items are resold as new.

B&H has admitted this several times in the past.

If the box is damaged or there are minor imperfections (scratches, etc.) the item will be sold as an "open box".

Returned items that actually have a manufacturer's defect are returned to the manufacturer but if there no manufacturer's defect they are sold as stated above.

Liberal return policies are great for some people but they're like a pyramid scheme and sooner or later, someone gets stuck with the used camera someone else tried, used, took on vacation and then returned for a refund.

It happens every day, here in the States.

I do agree that in other countries this is against the law but most other countries don't have liberal return policies.

👍🏻

-- hide signature --

Todd
I'm His, John 6:44

 Todd Jones's gear list:Todd Jones's gear list
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ikaika777 Senior Member • Posts: 2,182
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera
2

Ed B wrote:

ikaika777 wrote:

It’s against the law for retailers to sell used products “as new”. They have to sell it as used or open box/demo. Places like B&H and Adorama offer 30 days return policy on used/open box/demo products. There’s nothing worse than buying someone else’s lemon.

That's 100% false.

There are no laws, of this kind, that protect U.S. consumers.

B&H, along with every other large retailer, that has liberal return policies, inspects, cleans and repacks returns and if there are no visual defects to the equipment or the box, the items are resold as new.

B&H has admitted this several times in the past.

If the box is damaged or there are minor imperfections (scratches, etc.) the item will be sold as an "open box".

Returned items that actually have a manufacturer's defect are returned to the manufacturer but if there no manufacturer's defect they are sold as stated above.

Liberal return policies are great for some people but they're like a pyramid scheme and sooner or later, someone gets stuck with the used camera someone else tried, used, took on vacation and then returned for a refund.

It happens every day, here in the States.

I do agree that in other countries this is against the law but most other countries don't have liberal return policies.

You are 100% wrong.

”No Legal Definition of Refurbished

While the phrase "refurbished" implies that a seller has repaired the product and put it into good working condition, there's actually no legal definition of refurbished goods. As such, the expression can cover any number of scenarios, such as:

  • ***A brand new item that has been returned by a consumer who never used the product
  • A used item that has been repaired and reconditioned by the manufacturer or a third party
  • A demo unit
  • A new item that has damaged packaging

***The basic rule for refurbished goods is that once a product is returned, it cannot be sold as new, even if the product was never used.

So, any of these items may be lawfully sold as "refurbished" for a fraction of the cost of a new item.

Selling Refurbished as New is a Type of Fraud

***Federal truth-in-advertising law, administered by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, requires that refurbished and reconditioned items are properly labeled. ***This means that a seller cannot describe a returned or refurbished item as "new." Where a seller advertises a smartphone as new, for example, and in fact it has been used and refurbished, he could face criminal fraud charges, fines and jail time, if your local prosecutor deems the case worth pursuing. To get the ball rolling on such charges, you would have to file a police report. Criminal aspect aside, as a buyer, you can file a lawsuit against the supplier for misrepresentation. If successful, you will be able to cancel the transaction and at least get your money back, and your state may have a law that provides you with further money damages.”

”20.1 Deception generally.

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is new or unused when such is not the fact, or to misrepresent the current condition, or extent of previous use, reconstruction, or repair of any industry product.”

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/20.1

Besides the Federal truth-in-advertising law, administered by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, states also have their own laws protecting consumers of such unlawful practices.

-- hide signature --

After all is said and done and your photo is hanging on the wall, no one is going to know or care what camera, lens, or what post processing you used. All they care about is if the image moves them.
I’m not hung up on the Bokeh fad because I’m too busy chasing shadows.

 ikaika777's gear list:ikaika777's gear list
Fujifilm X100F Fujifilm X-T2 Fujifilm X-E3 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 16mm F1.4 R WR +15 more
Ed B
Ed B Forum Pro • Posts: 10,492
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera
4

Well, I don't know what to tell you except the Cornell Law School must be quoting regulations that don't apply to photography equipment.

If you believe these liberal return retailers are taking a loss on every returned item and selling them as open box, etc., then I've got a bridge in san Fransisco I'd like to sell you.

Either way, as long as you're happy with your new equipment that's all that counts.

ikaika777 Senior Member • Posts: 2,182
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera

Ed B wrote:

Well, I don't know what to tell you except the Cornell Law School must be quoting regulations that don't apply to photography equipment.

If you believe these liberal return retailers are taking a loss on every returned item and selling them as open box, etc., then I've got a bridge in san Fransisco I'd like to sell you.

Either way, as long as you're happy with your new equipment that's all that counts.

It’s actually the Federal truth-in-advertising law, administered by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission. It’s the law, and yes it does include cameras of course and all retailers. And there is also state laws saying the same thing. I used to be the head of shipping and receiving for a retail giant for 4 years and ALL returns, even unopened returns, were shipped back to their respectful companies. Had we had a used/open box policy then of course the unopened merch would have been sold as open box. I’m sure retailers are still making a good profit on open box items as it’s only a little cheaper than brand new items. Take for instance Adorama has an open box Leica CL 24MP Mirrorless Digital Camera with 18mm F2.8 ELMARIT-TL Aspherical Pancake Lens for $3,035.25, they also sell one brand new for $3,195.00. Adorama describes open box as: “Like new, fully backed by the manufacturer's warranty. Refers to items that may have been displayed in our retail store, used occasionally for training, or returned without original packaging, accessories, and manuals. Please inspect and test the product immediately upon receipt.” As you can see they can’t sell it as “new”. B&H describes their OB merch the same way. People returning cameras without defects are sold as open box.

Even Amazon bans return abusers:

”Banned From Amazon: The Shoppers Who Make Too Many Returns.”

https://www.wsj.com/articles/banned-from-amazon-the-shoppers-who-make-too-many-returns-1526981401

-- hide signature --

After all is said and done and your photo is hanging on the wall, no one is going to know or care what camera, lens, or what post processing you used. All they care about is if the image moves them.
I’m not hung up on the Bokeh fad because I’m too busy chasing shadows.

 ikaika777's gear list:ikaika777's gear list
Fujifilm X100F Fujifilm X-T2 Fujifilm X-E3 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 16mm F1.4 R WR +15 more
tokumeino Senior Member • Posts: 2,773
Fuji boxes don't have sealing stickers

Other brands I've used to buy had sealing stickers on their boxes, so it makes more difficult to let a client think that a box has never been opened, while it did. I remember having been very surprised when I got my first Fuji box, up to the point of asking here if it was normal.

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Les Lammers
Les Lammers Veteran Member • Posts: 3,776
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera
7

a_c_skinner wrote:

Swings and roundabouts, you cannot have liberal returns without needing to sell non-faulty returns at more or less the original price.

Some UK retailers (not photo AFAIK, so far) are declining to trade further with people who return a lot of stuff.

There are plenty of people that believe they are entitled buy, try and return.   If they received an item that was a return they would be the first to whine. 

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Todd Jones
Todd Jones Senior Member • Posts: 1,485
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera

ikaika777 wrote:

Ed B wrote:

ikaika777 wrote:

It’s against the law for retailers to sell used products “as new”. They have to sell it as used or open box/demo. Places like B&H and Adorama offer 30 days return policy on used/open box/demo products. There’s nothing worse than buying someone else’s lemon.

That's 100% false.

There are no laws, of this kind, that protect U.S. consumers.

B&H, along with every other large retailer, that has liberal return policies, inspects, cleans and repacks returns and if there are no visual defects to the equipment or the box, the items are resold as new.

B&H has admitted this several times in the past.

If the box is damaged or there are minor imperfections (scratches, etc.) the item will be sold as an "open box".

Returned items that actually have a manufacturer's defect are returned to the manufacturer but if there no manufacturer's defect they are sold as stated above.

Liberal return policies are great for some people but they're like a pyramid scheme and sooner or later, someone gets stuck with the used camera someone else tried, used, took on vacation and then returned for a refund.

It happens every day, here in the States.

I do agree that in other countries this is against the law but most other countries don't have liberal return policies.

You are 100% wrong.

”No Legal Definition of Refurbished

I think you're moving the goal posts, who's talking about refurbished?

While the phrase "refurbished" implies that a seller has repaired the product and put it into good working condition, there's actually no legal definition of refurbished goods. As such, the expression can cover any number of scenarios, such as:

  • ***A brand new item that has been returned by a consumer who never used the product
  • A used item that has been repaired and reconditioned by the manufacturer or a third party
  • A demo unit
  • A new item that has damaged packaging

***The basic rule for refurbished goods is that once a product is returned, it cannot be sold as new, even if the product was never used.

So, any of these items may be lawfully sold as "refurbished" for a fraction of the cost of a new item.

Selling Refurbished as New is a Type of Fraud

***Federal truth-in-advertising law, administered by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, requires that refurbished and reconditioned items are properly labeled. ***This means that a seller cannot describe a returned or refurbished item as "new." Where a seller advertises a smartphone as new, for example, and in fact it has been used and refurbished, he could face criminal fraud charges, fines and jail time, if your local prosecutor deems the case worth pursuing. To get the ball rolling on such charges, you would have to file a police report. Criminal aspect aside, as a buyer, you can file a lawsuit against the supplier for misrepresentation. If successful, you will be able to cancel the transaction and at least get your money back, and your state may have a law that provides you with further money damages.”

”20.1 Deception generally.

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is new or unused when such is not the fact, or to misrepresent the current condition, or extent of previous use, reconstruction, or repair of any industry product.”

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/20.1

Besides the Federal truth-in-advertising law, administered by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, states also have their own laws protecting consumers of such unlawful practices.

-- hide signature --

After all is said and done and your photo is hanging on the wall, no one is going to know or care what camera, lens, or what post processing you used. All they care about is if the image moves them.
I’m not hung up on the Bokeh fad because I’m too busy chasing shadows.

-- hide signature --

Todd
I'm His, John 6:44

 Todd Jones's gear list:Todd Jones's gear list
Fujifilm X-T2 Fujifilm XF 18mm F2 R Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 16mm F1.4 R WR XF 90mm
ikaika777 Senior Member • Posts: 2,182
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera

Todd Jones wrote:

ikaika777 wrote:

Ed B wrote:

ikaika777 wrote:

It’s against the law for retailers to sell used products “as new”. They have to sell it as used or open box/demo. Places like B&H and Adorama offer 30 days return policy on used/open box/demo products. There’s nothing worse than buying someone else’s lemon.

That's 100% false.

There are no laws, of this kind, that protect U.S. consumers.

B&H, along with every other large retailer, that has liberal return policies, inspects, cleans and repacks returns and if there are no visual defects to the equipment or the box, the items are resold as new.

B&H has admitted this several times in the past.

If the box is damaged or there are minor imperfections (scratches, etc.) the item will be sold as an "open box".

Returned items that actually have a manufacturer's defect are returned to the manufacturer but if there no manufacturer's defect they are sold as stated above.

Liberal return policies are great for some people but they're like a pyramid scheme and sooner or later, someone gets stuck with the used camera someone else tried, used, took on vacation and then returned for a refund.

It happens every day, here in the States.

I do agree that in other countries this is against the law but most other countries don't have liberal return policies.

You are 100% wrong.

”No Legal Definition of Refurbished

I think you're moving the goal posts, who's talking about refurbished?

Um, no. You either didn’t read what I posted or didn’t understand. I’ll try again:

”While the phrase "refurbished" implies that a seller has repaired the product and put it into good working condition, there's actually no legal definition of refurbished goods. ***As such, the expression can cover any number of scenarios, such as:

  • *******A brand new item that has been returned by a consumer who never used the product
  • A used item that has been repaired and reconditioned by the manufacturer or a third party
  • A demo unit
  • A new item that has damaged packaging”

As you can clearly see it states that “refurbished” also includes, “A brand new item that has been returned by consumer who never used the product OR a demo unit OR a new item that has damaged packaging. Bottom line is it is unlawful to advertise a used product for sale as “new” as per the Federal truth-in-advertising law, administered by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission. It’s the law.

While the phrase "refurbished" implies that a seller has repaired the product and put it into good working condition, there's actually no legal definition of refurbished goods. As such, the expression can cover any number of scenarios, such as:

  • ***A brand new item that has been returned by a consumer who never used the product
  • A used item that has been repaired and reconditioned by the manufacturer or a third party
  • A demo unit
  • A new item that has damaged packaging

***The basic rule for refurbished goods is that once a product is returned, it cannot be sold as new, even if the product was never used.

So, any of these items may be lawfully sold as "refurbished" for a fraction of the cost of a new item.

Selling Refurbished as New is a Type of Fraud

***Federal truth-in-advertising law, administered by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, requires that refurbished and reconditioned items are properly labeled. ***This means that a seller cannot describe a returned or refurbished item as "new." Where a seller advertises a smartphone as new, for example, and in fact it has been used and refurbished, he could face criminal fraud charges, fines and jail time, if your local prosecutor deems the case worth pursuing. To get the ball rolling on such charges, you would have to file a police report. Criminal aspect aside, as a buyer, you can file a lawsuit against the supplier for misrepresentation. If successful, you will be able to cancel the transaction and at least get your money back, and your state may have a law that provides you with further money damages.”

”20.1 Deception generally.

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is new or unused when such is not the fact, or to misrepresent the current condition, or extent of previous use, reconstruction, or repair of any industry product.”

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/20.1

Besides the Federal truth-in-advertising law, administered by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, states also have their own laws protecting consumers of such unlawful practices.

-- hide signature --

After all is said and done and your photo is hanging on the wall, no one is going to know or care what camera, lens, or what post processing you used. All they care about is if the image moves them.
I’m not hung up on the Bokeh fad because I’m too busy chasing shadows.

 ikaika777's gear list:ikaika777's gear list
Fujifilm X100F Fujifilm X-T2 Fujifilm X-E3 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 16mm F1.4 R WR +15 more
pseudobreccia
pseudobreccia Contributing Member • Posts: 706
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera
10

double00 wrote:

Anyone know what B&H, Adorama, etc. does with a lens or camera that a customer returns?

I have noticed individuals purchasing multiple copies of a lens, testing to see which they feel is the best copy and sending the others back.

Is there a way the next person purchasing the same model lens or camera can be assured they don't receive a lens/camera that has been returned after someone has played with it for up to a month?

People that do what you described above are complete and total jerks...abusing the system and the good customer service of a company.  Pathetic!

-- hide signature --

Steve A. Kleinheider

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Todd Jones
Todd Jones Senior Member • Posts: 1,485
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera

ikaika777 wrote:

Todd Jones wrote:

ikaika777 wrote:

Ed B wrote:

ikaika777 wrote:

It’s against the law for retailers to sell used products “as new”. They have to sell it as used or open box/demo. Places like B&H and Adorama offer 30 days return policy on used/open box/demo products. There’s nothing worse than buying someone else’s lemon.

That's 100% false.

There are no laws, of this kind, that protect U.S. consumers.

B&H, along with every other large retailer, that has liberal return policies, inspects, cleans and repacks returns and if there are no visual defects to the equipment or the box, the items are resold as new.

B&H has admitted this several times in the past.

If the box is damaged or there are minor imperfections (scratches, etc.) the item will be sold as an "open box".

Returned items that actually have a manufacturer's defect are returned to the manufacturer but if there no manufacturer's defect they are sold as stated above.

Liberal return policies are great for some people but they're like a pyramid scheme and sooner or later, someone gets stuck with the used camera someone else tried, used, took on vacation and then returned for a refund.

It happens every day, here in the States.

I do agree that in other countries this is against the law but most other countries don't have liberal return policies.

You are 100% wrong.

”No Legal Definition of Refurbished

I think you're moving the goal posts, who's talking about refurbished?

Um, no. You either didn’t read what I posted or didn’t understand. I’ll try again:

Um, I'll try again too.

”While the phrase "refurbished" implies that a seller has repaired the product and put it into good working condition, there's actually no legal definition of refurbished goods. ***As such, the expression can

****CAN can also mean NOT

cover any number of scenarios, such as:

  • *******A brand new item that has been returned by a consumer who never used the product
  • A used item that has been repaired and reconditioned by the manufacturer or a third party
  • A demo unit
  • A new item that has damaged packaging”

As you can clearly see it states that “refurbished” also includes, “A brand new item that has been returned by consumer who never used the product

right, this Can mean that BUT not necessarily. Your lens when returned can be sold as refurbished BUT, it DOESN'T HAVE TO!!!

PLEASE READ THIS FOR YOURSELF, and i quote "We are very strict about returned merchandise. Each piece is individually inspected. That means that when the customer's parcel gets to us, it's unpacked by our staff, each piece inspected and then the whole thing repacked. If it's in as-new condition, according to our strict standards, it's returned to inventory. If not, depending on circumstances, it's marked "open box" and sold that way at a discount, or returned to the customer."

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/1944032

That is directly from B&H Photo from all the way back in 2001, IF their policy has changed, and maybe it has, please correct it here for us.

OR a demo unit OR a new item that has damaged packaging. Bottom line is it is unlawful to advertise a used product for sale as “new” as per the Federal truth-in-advertising law, administered by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission. It’s the law.

While the phrase "refurbished" implies that a seller has repaired the product and put it into good working condition, there's actually no legal definition of refurbished goods. As such, the expression can cover any number of scenarios, such as:

  • ***A brand new item that has been returned by a consumer who never used the product
  • A used item that has been repaired and reconditioned by the manufacturer or a third party
  • A demo unit
  • A new item that has damaged packaging

***The basic rule for refurbished goods is that once a product is returned, it cannot be sold as new, even if the product was never used.

So, any of these items may be lawfully sold as "refurbished" for a fraction of the cost of a new item.

Selling Refurbished as New is a Type of Fraud

***Federal truth-in-advertising law, administered by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, requires that refurbished and reconditioned items are properly labeled. ***This means that a seller cannot describe a returned or refurbished item as "new." Where a seller advertises a smartphone as new, for example, and in fact it has been used and refurbished, he could face criminal fraud charges, fines and jail time, if your local prosecutor deems the case worth pursuing. To get the ball rolling on such charges, you would have to file a police report. Criminal aspect aside, as a buyer, you can file a lawsuit against the supplier for misrepresentation. If successful, you will be able to cancel the transaction and at least get your money back, and your state may have a law that provides you with further money damages.”

”20.1 Deception generally.

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is new or unused when such is not the fact, or to misrepresent the current condition, or extent of previous use, reconstruction, or repair of any industry product.”

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/20.1

Besides the Federal truth-in-advertising law, administered by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, states also have their own laws protecting consumers of such unlawful practices.

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Todd
I'm His, John 6:44

 Todd Jones's gear list:Todd Jones's gear list
Fujifilm X-T2 Fujifilm XF 18mm F2 R Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 16mm F1.4 R WR XF 90mm
Crashton
Crashton Senior Member • Posts: 1,861
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera
4

pseudobreccia wrote:

People that do what you described above are complete and total jerks...abusing the system and the good customer service of a company. Pathetic!

I agree with your assessment. Buyer remorse is one thing, but to buy to test it out is something else.

All of my gear was bought used with the exception of my X-T2 that I bought this June on a killer sale from Adorama. The camera was in a bag with a tamper proof tape seal. If that seal was broken I'd have called & expected either another camera or a discount on the one that I'd bought.

I just wanted to get my .02 in before the thread gets locked. 

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Chuck

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ikaika777 Senior Member • Posts: 2,182
Re: Customer Returns, Lens/Camera

Todd Jones wrote:

ikaika777 wrote:

Todd Jones wrote:

ikaika777 wrote:

Ed B wrote:

ikaika777 wrote:

It’s against the law for retailers to sell used products “as new”. They have to sell it as used or open box/demo. Places like B&H and Adorama offer 30 days return policy on used/open box/demo products. There’s nothing worse than buying someone else’s lemon.

That's 100% false.

There are no laws, of this kind, that protect U.S. consumers.

B&H, along with every other large retailer, that has liberal return policies, inspects, cleans and repacks returns and if there are no visual defects to the equipment or the box, the items are resold as new.

B&H has admitted this several times in the past.

If the box is damaged or there are minor imperfections (scratches, etc.) the item will be sold as an "open box".

Returned items that actually have a manufacturer's defect are returned to the manufacturer but if there no manufacturer's defect they are sold as stated above.

Liberal return policies are great for some people but they're like a pyramid scheme and sooner or later, someone gets stuck with the used camera someone else tried, used, took on vacation and then returned for a refund.

It happens every day, here in the States.

I do agree that in other countries this is against the law but most other countries don't have liberal return policies.

You are 100% wrong.

”No Legal Definition of Refurbished

I think you're moving the goal posts, who's talking about refurbished?

Um, no. You either didn’t read what I posted or didn’t understand. I’ll try again:

Um, I'll try again too.

”While the phrase "refurbished" implies that a seller has repaired the product and put it into good working condition, there's actually no legal definition of refurbished goods. ***As such, the expression can

****CAN can also mean NOT

Um, no. Once again it is unlawful to advertise and sell used products as new. “Can” doesn’t mean “might”.

cover any number of scenarios, such as:

  • *******A brand new item that has been returned by a consumer who never used the product
  • A used item that has been repaired and reconditioned by the manufacturer or a third party
  • A demo unit
  • A new item that has damaged packaging”

As you can clearly see it states that “refurbished” also includes, “A brand new item that has been returned by consumer who never used the product

right, this Can mean that BUT not necessarily. Your lens when returned can be sold as refurbished BUT, it DOESN'T HAVE TO!!!

PLEASE READ THIS FOR YOURSELF, and i quote "We are very strict about returned merchandise. Each piece is individually inspected. That means that when the customer's parcel gets to us, it's unpacked by our staff, each piece inspected and then the whole thing repacked. If it's in as-new condition, according to our strict standards, it's returned to inventory. If not, depending on circumstances, it's marked "open box" and sold that way at a discount, or returned to the customer."

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/1944032

That is directly from B&H Photo from all the way back in 2001, IF their policy has changed, and maybe it has, please correct it here for us.

I don’t care what a retailers “policy” is, it can’t supersede the laws by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission and as stated before states have their own laws against such unlawful practices and a retailers policy cannot supersede state laws. If a retailer is advertising and selling used products as new it’s against the law. Even Amazon has a strict policy for sellers, they cannot advertise/sell used products as new.

”Types of violations

Amazon enforces sellers who violate our selling policies. Violations related to product authenticity are categorized as intellectual property violations. Issues with the overall product quality, including products that do not match their descriptions, can be categorized as “materially different” violations.

Materially different product condition violation

The product you list and ship must exactly match the description, pictures, and all other information on the product detail page. Amazon policy prohibits you from listing or shipping “materially different” products. For example:

  • ***Listing your product in New condition when it is not in brand-new or unused condition, or in un-opened original packaging.
  • Listing your product for sale on any related product detail page when your product does not exactly match the description on that page.
  • Shipping a product that is damaged, defective, misclassified, misrepresented, or missing any of its parts.

Enforcement

Based on the severity of a policy violation, Amazon may take the following actions:

  • Cancel your listings
  • Limit, suspend, or block your ability to list products
  • Suspend or block your ability to sell
  • Remove or dispose of your FBA inventory
  • Withhold your payments”

Adorama has to follow this policy as they are a seller on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/sp?seller=A17MC6HOH9AVE6

OR a demo unit OR a new item that has damaged packaging. Bottom line is it is unlawful to advertise a used product for sale as “new” as per the Federal truth-in-advertising law, administered by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission. It’s the law.

While the phrase "refurbished" implies that a seller has repaired the product and put it into good working condition, there's actually no legal definition of refurbished goods. As such, the expression can cover any number of scenarios, such as:

  • ***A brand new item that has been returned by a consumer who never used the product
  • A used item that has been repaired and reconditioned by the manufacturer or a third party
  • A demo unit
  • A new item that has damaged packaging

***The basic rule for refurbished goods is that once a product is returned, it cannot be sold as new, even if the product was never used.

So, any of these items may be lawfully sold as "refurbished" for a fraction of the cost of a new item.

Selling Refurbished as New is a Type of Fraud

***Federal truth-in-advertising law, administered by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, requires that refurbished and reconditioned items are properly labeled. ***This means that a seller cannot describe a returned or refurbished item as "new." Where a seller advertises a smartphone as new, for example, and in fact it has been used and refurbished, he could face criminal fraud charges, fines and jail time, if your local prosecutor deems the case worth pursuing. To get the ball rolling on such charges, you would have to file a police report. Criminal aspect aside, as a buyer, you can file a lawsuit against the supplier for misrepresentation. If successful, you will be able to cancel the transaction and at least get your money back, and your state may have a law that provides you with further money damages.”

”20.1 Deception generally.

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is new or unused when such is not the fact, or to misrepresent the current condition, or extent of previous use, reconstruction, or repair of any industry product.”

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/20.1

Besides the Federal truth-in-advertising law, administered by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, states also have their own laws protecting consumers of such unlawful practices.

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After all is said and done and your photo is hanging on the wall, no one is going to know or care what camera, lens, or what post processing you used. All they care about is if the image moves them.
I’m not hung up on the Bokeh fad because I’m too busy chasing shadows.

 ikaika777's gear list:ikaika777's gear list
Fujifilm X100F Fujifilm X-T2 Fujifilm X-E3 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 16mm F1.4 R WR +15 more
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