Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big

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tektrader Senior Member • Posts: 1,761
Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big
1

Then it dawned on me......  Maybe it is big enough to use for the medium format Nikon camera of the future?

How big are the mounts on the Fuji or Pentax medium frame cameras ?

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rich_cx139
rich_cx139 Regular Member • Posts: 194
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big
4

tektrader wrote:

Then it dawned on me...... Maybe it is big enough to use for the medium format Nikon camera of the future?

How big are the mounts on the Fuji or Pentax medium frame cameras ?

65 mm on fuji G - ie much larger.

This was a conjecture by ken wheeler ( aka the angry photorapher ) amongst others before the actual z dia was known.

michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 13,486
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big
1

No.  But let’s say for a minute the mount diameter was large enough.  What would that get you?  Image circle of current Z lenses are not large enough.  So you’d need all new lenses.

And what would be the IQ gain with small medium format?  I would say not enough.  Fuji skipped full frame and went to small medium format to get a large enough gain.  Nikon would need to do the same.  Skip small medium format ang large MF.

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beatboxa Senior Member • Posts: 6,222
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big
5

tektrader wrote:

Then it dawned on me...... Maybe it is big enough to use for the medium format Nikon camera of the future?

How big are the mounts on the Fuji or Pentax medium frame cameras ?

It's not.

It's for more flexibility in lens design.  Also remember IBIS.  And diminishing returns.

They could do a medium format, but why?  Remember that to get even 1 stop improvement (like DX to FX), Nikon would need a sensor that is 54mm x 36mm, which has a diagonal / image circle diameter of 65mm.

You'll note that the "medium format" of Fuji and Pentax is less than 1 stop more than full-frame.  There is much more difference between even APS-C & FF than there is between FF & these modern digital medium formats.

bokemon Regular Member • Posts: 191
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big
2

I dunno, probably so that you can put a BIG tele lens on it and wave it around.

It's certainly not for the big apertures, since even the dinky F mount was good enough for F1.2

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Fazal Majid
Fazal Majid Senior Member • Posts: 1,819
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big
3

When Canon ditched FD for EF mount, they adopted a wide throat, which is why they could make lenses like the 50mm f/1.0L that were simply impossible in F mount (and Canon did in fact introduce that very niche optics very early in the EF mount lifecycle, to rub Nikon's nose in it).

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NCB Senior Member • Posts: 1,093
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big

Fazal Majid wrote:

When Canon ditched FD for EF mount, they adopted a wide throat, which is why they could make lenses like the 50mm f/1.0L that were simply impossible in F mount (and Canon did in fact introduce that very niche optics very early in the EF mount lifecycle, to rub Nikon's nose in it).

Interesting. So that's why Nikon produced the Noct ... Competition lives on

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OP tektrader Senior Member • Posts: 1,761
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big

michaeladawson wrote:

No. But let’s say for a minute the mount diameter was large enough. What would that get you? Image circle of current Z lenses are not large enough. So you’d need all new lenses.

But maybe you could use the MF lenses on a Z ..........

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rich_cx139
rich_cx139 Regular Member • Posts: 194
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big

tektrader wrote:

Then it dawned on me...... Maybe it is big enough to use for the medium format Nikon camera of the future?

How big are the mounts on the Fuji or Pentax medium frame cameras ?

another thought: looks like Nikon has only made one attempt at medium format - the nikoflex tlr prototype in c 1946/7.  correct me if i'm wrong.

I wonder why they didn't? after all contax/yashica and pentax made mf slr's so there appeared to be a market - at least in the film era.

michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 13,486
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big

tektrader wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

No. But let’s say for a minute the mount diameter was large enough. What would that get you? Image circle of current Z lenses are not large enough. So you’d need all new lenses.

But maybe you could use the MF lenses on a Z ..........

Perhaps.  But if I was into a new medium format Nikon Z mount camera plus lenses I doubt I would still have a full frame Z body.

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Fazal Majid
Fazal Majid Senior Member • Posts: 1,819
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big

rich_cx139 wrote:

another thought: looks like Nikon has only made one attempt at medium format - the nikoflex tlr prototype in c 1946/7. correct me if i'm wrong.

Bodies, yes, but they made MF lenses for the Plaubel Makina.

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Leonard Migliore
Leonard Migliore Forum Pro • Posts: 17,469
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big

Fazal Majid wrote:

rich_cx139 wrote:

another thought: looks like Nikon has only made one attempt at medium format - the nikoflex tlr prototype in c 1946/7. correct me if i'm wrong.

Bodies, yes, but they made MF lenses for the Plaubel Makina.

And Bronica too.

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Leonard Migliore

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OP tektrader Senior Member • Posts: 1,761
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big

Sure Mike, But if I had a MF body. I sure would also want a FF camera as well. I could think of nothing worse than hefting a MF camera around all the time. I would have to have both...

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z2122
z2122 Senior Member • Posts: 1,117
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big

tektrader wrote:

Then it dawned on me...... Maybe it is big enough to use for the medium format Nikon camera of the future?

How big are the mounts on the Fuji or Pentax medium frame cameras ?

as I understand Nikon is now able to make lenses with better edge to edge sharpness and wide lenses will be more compact ( eg 14-30f4)

the diameter of f-mount was a limiter for the lens designers.

and also a 58 f0.95  Noct woukd not be possible - which is not that important for me ( unfortunately  )

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michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 13,486
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big
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tektrader wrote:

Sure Mike, But if I had a MF body. I sure would also want a FF camera as well. I could think of nothing worse than hefting a MF camera around all the time. I would have to have both...

If I had to have two sensor size bodies I'd rather have a high end Z70, Z90 APS-C body.

There simply isn't enough gain in IQ between full frame and the small medium format sensor to get me (and a lot of others) to pay double for a small MF system.

Fuji users (the fanboys anyway) will tell you that there is no sizable difference in IQ between APS-C and full frame.  That APS-C is the sweet spot.  I don't necessarily agree with them but there is some level of truth to it.  There is even less difference in IQ between small medium format and full frame.

If Nikon were to go medium format it would make more sense to go larger medium format.  And now you're talking really big bucks.

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Bridgehouse Regular Member • Posts: 305
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big

It was to shut canon up with their chatter on how big the eos throat was compared to F.

Sadly, it seems canon have now decided multiple mounts are actually better. Lol.

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FujLiver
FujLiver Contributing Member • Posts: 787
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big

tektrader wrote:

Then it dawned on me...... Maybe it is big enough to use for the medium format Nikon camera of the future?

How big are the mounts on the Fuji or Pentax medium frame cameras ?

How do you define too big ?

looks fine to me

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Matsu Senior Member • Posts: 2,323
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big

beatboxa wrote:

tektrader wrote:

Then it dawned on me...... Maybe it is big enough to use for the medium format Nikon camera of the future?

How big are the mounts on the Fuji or Pentax medium frame cameras ?

It's not.

I agree that it's likely not their intention, however...  it might be just big enough for the size around which the newest mirrorless Medium Format systems have standardized, ie. 44x33.  Actually 43.8x32.9 (Pentax/Fuji GFX /Hassleblad X1D).  These are 55mm image diameter systems, actually, just slightly less, 54.8mm.  Even Leica's oddball 45x30mm fits in a 54mm image circle.

So, 55mm inner diameter is borderline, especially when you consider the mounting tabs which steal a couple of mm, lets call it 52mm.  It's not uncommon at all for the mount to shade the corners of a sensor/film when viewed head on.  This was the case for many Medium format films.  Virtually every 6x6 or larger camera had a mount smaller than 80mm - the diagonal of 6x6 film - some considerably so.  Only 645 film was smaller than the throat diameter of these cameras, and probably only because many were conceived as modular systems to accommodate different backs between 645 and 6x7, and in some cases 6x8 and 6x9 even!

At a push it wouldn't be completely crazy to cast Z mount as a modular system scaling from APSC to 44x33, or nearly two stops from smallest to largest.  28.1mm image circle at the smallest.  54.8mm at the largest.  43.3mm (135 format) at the sweet spot.

Again, I wouldn't make too much of it because, like you, I don't think so, but...

It's for more flexibility in lens design. Also remember IBIS. And diminishing returns.

Less optimal, sure, but all design involves compromise.  For medium format ultra large apertures are even less of a necessity, and IBIS can work within very tight constraints.

Diminishing returns warrants some careful consideration - it plays out in a number of ways and not something I can predict...

They could do a medium format, but why? Remember that to get even 1 stop improvement (like DX to FX), Nikon would need a sensor that is 54mm x 36mm, which has a diagonal / image circle diameter of 65mm.

You'll note that the "medium format" of Fuji and Pentax is less than 1 stop more than full-frame. There is much more difference between even APS-C & FF than there is between FF & these modern digital medium formats.

Diminishing returns have many ramifications - cost, size, performance, market acceptance, etc...

That's the right question: are 2/3rds of a stop worth it?  I don't know.  For me?  No, I can do anything I need with less camera than I already have.  Nikon has mentioned software solutions being developed to take sensor resolution higher in the face of diffraction effects, which means they're thinking about what a 100MP + file looks like, and beyond.  Some market must be thinking about what a really large print looks like from 60MP vs 100MP - more or less the difference between state of the art 135 format (35mm, aka full frame) and state of the art 44x33mm (the new tweener medium format).

I think we should be pretty happy Nikon has made a solid housing for a 35mm full frame mirrorless system, and not worry about whether something larger may crowd the same space in the future.

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dai7p New Member • Posts: 17
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big

The main reason behind Nikon's switch from F to Z mount, as I see it, is to sale the same set of lenses once again. That's why they at first ditched support AI in newer bodies and AF-D lenses in FTZ later, that's why FTZ costs ridicules 250$ instead of been included for free with any Z-mount camera. They see their main source of the future profits in lenses, not in bodies.

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Bridgehouse Regular Member • Posts: 305
Re: Been thinking about why the Z mount was made so big
3

dai7p wrote:

The main reason behind Nikon's switch from F to Z mount, as I see it, is to sale the same set of lenses once again. That's why they at first ditched support AI in newer bodies and AF-D lenses in FTZ later, that's why FTZ costs ridicules 250$ instead of been included for free with any Z-mount camera. They see their main source of the future profits in lenses, not in bodies.

Oh come on... seriously?

Of all the Nikon bashing I’ve seen in the last few months this one is the most ridiculous.

Nikon designed the new Z mount to compensate for stuff they just couldn’t do with the old F mount. The flange distance on mirrorless opens up a whole new opportunity to design some optically fantastic lenses.

An F mount on mirrorless would have included the flange distance to accommodate a mirror that was no longer there - so there would have been a big chunk of nothing in front of the sensor and the bodies would have been considerably thicker.

Similarly, the wider throat allows for optically different designs that weren’t possible on the F.

So far, of the lenses they have released in the S line, they are pretty much all better than their F mount equivalents.

Better lenses. Not the same ones, but better ones. You seriously telling me you don’t want Nikon to make better lenses, and better lenses than is possible on the F mount?

Seriously...

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