Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?

Started 3 months ago | Discussions
HeavyDuty Senior Member • Posts: 1,915
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
1

olyflyer wrote:

JoeGuide wrote:

Z50 has magnesium weatherproof body with twin dial controls. Probably not difficult to replace the APSC sensor with a FF sensor for another $200 (just guessing). Manufacturing cost is shared by the two cameras. Add back a few features like CLS. Now we have Canon RP competitor with MRSP of <1200.

Forget about it. It is far more difficult than you think. You underestimate the work.

But, if that was one of the design parameters...

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lokatz
lokatz Senior Member • Posts: 1,579
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
1

JoeGuide wrote:

In 6 month, pop in a new FF sensor in the same body and sell at below $1200, and the slaughter begins.

The $64,000 question (for Nikon) is how much of that slaughter will be hurting Canon and Sony, and how much of it will merely eat away at the direly-needed profits from the Z6 and various Nikon FX bodies.

The whole market has gone upscale price-wise for quite some time.  I'd be surprised if we were ever to see another $1,200 FF mirrorless body from Canikony, for the simple reason that the market keeps shrinking and the value sweet spot for the makers, not the consumers, is now north of $2,000, not below that.  Sony sells a lot of bodies at price points that used to be reserved to pros, and it is enthusiasts, not consumers or advanced consumers, who are fueling that segment.

I have to admit I am puzzled by Nikon's strategy around the Z50, since its marketing message and the feature set aren't well sync'd, to put it mildly.  On the other hand, I don't believe Nikon is foolish enough to cannibalize the FF mirrorless segment more than absolutely necessary for them to re-gain some traction.

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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 26,881
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
2

HeavyDuty wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

JoeGuide wrote:

Z50 has magnesium weatherproof body with twin dial controls. Probably not difficult to replace the APSC sensor with a FF sensor for another $200 (just guessing). Manufacturing cost is shared by the two cameras. Add back a few features like CLS. Now we have Canon RP competitor with MRSP of <1200.

Forget about it. It is far more difficult than you think. You underestimate the work.

But, if that was one of the design parameters...

It was not. Nobody ever built a camera with that sort of specification because it would make it far too expensive and complicated, without any benefits for Nikon in this case. These cameras are not modular.

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thomas2279f
thomas2279f Veteran Member • Posts: 3,297
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
3

Z8 will be good but expensive at $4500 and possibly plenty of DX users would like an upper Z70 (D7xxx - D5xx) but for around $1500 tops.

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David Thomas

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going_digital Regular Member • Posts: 375
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
2

There is probably already a prototype in field testing already. It could be a great model between the Z 50 and Z 6.

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jeffnles1 Senior Member • Posts: 1,364
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
1

While we’re having fun speculating here, nobody really knows what Nikon or any manufacturer is going to do until credible leaks start coming out about a new model.  If we’re doing wish list stuff, I wouldn’t mind to see a 30mp+ DX that would be essentially a mirror less D500 camera with IBIS, fast focusing and built on the Z6/Z7 frame with the same or similar controls.  I doubt we will see such a beast anytime soon if ever but that would be on my wish list.  Also, hurry up and produce the 100-400 S line and 200-600 Z mount lenses as well as the 105mm Micro.  With those 3 lenses the Z series becomes a lot more attractive to wildlife and nature shooters such as myself.  I don’t really care a lot about birds in flight although I do shoot them from time to time.  I do shoot a lot of macro, especially during spring wildflower season and I shoot a lot of mammals like deer particularly in the fall rut and waterfowl during spring and fall migrations.  Landscape fills out the summer seasons.

Actually, give me the 3 lenses above and a Z 7 and the Z system becomes a whole lot more attractive to me.  I haven’t made the jump from my trusty D7200 yet as there really is nothing that I’ve been unable to shoot.  EVF has some advantages and pushing 100,000 shutter actuations of the D7200 I need to start thinking what comes next.

Just my $.02 worth and it is probably worth less than half what you paid for it.

Jeff

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Jefftan Veteran Member • Posts: 3,214
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
2

if nikon can make a $1000 FF, it will sell like hot cake

not sure who will buy Z50 wuth so many other mature crop system

fotorobot Forum Member • Posts: 73
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
1

JoeGuide wrote:

Z50 has magnesium weatherproof body with twin dial controls. Probably not difficult to replace the APSC sensor with a FF sensor for another $200 (just guessing). Manufacturing cost is shared by the two cameras. Add back a few features like CLS. Now we have Canon RP competitor with MRSP of <1200.

Z6 even now can be had for less than $1300, brand new off eBay. More than competitive to RP.

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 26,881
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
2

fotorobot wrote:

JoeGuide wrote:

Z50 has magnesium weatherproof body with twin dial controls. Probably not difficult to replace the APSC sensor with a FF sensor for another $200 (just guessing). Manufacturing cost is shared by the two cameras. Add back a few features like CLS. Now we have Canon RP competitor with MRSP of <1200.

Z6 even now can be had for less than $1300, brand new off eBay. More than competitive to RP.

Remember the old truth... If it is too good to be true, then it is not true. EBay would be the last place to buy a new camera from. At least for me.

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DaveR43 Senior Member • Posts: 1,381
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
4

olyflyer wrote:

HeavyDuty wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

JoeGuide wrote:

Z50 has magnesium weatherproof body with twin dial controls. Probably not difficult to replace the APSC sensor with a FF sensor for another $200 (just guessing). Manufacturing cost is shared by the two cameras. Add back a few features like CLS. Now we have Canon RP competitor with MRSP of <1200.

Forget about it. It is far more difficult than you think. You underestimate the work.

But, if that was one of the design parameters...

It was not. Nobody ever built a camera with that sort of specification because it would make it far too expensive and complicated, without any benefits for Nikon in this case. These cameras are not modular.

I don't think JoeGuide was intending to suggest the Z50 was designed for field replacement of the sensor. I think the suggestion was that a revision to the design would enable a FF mirrorless body to be produced, using essentailly the same innards.

In fact, Thom Hogan has suggested the same idea in his article 'Reader questions about the Z50".  Right at the end, he has this question and answer:

Q "Can we tell anything from the Z50 positioning?"

A "Maybe. I wouldn't put it past Nikon to produce a Z5 full frame camera using the exact same Z50 body and specifications. It would be almost a no brainer to do. And it could be priced under the Z6 because it doesn't have the fancier EVF and LCD, the top display, or on-sensor VR (among other things)."

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DaveR

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hikerdoc Senior Member • Posts: 2,507
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
1

fotorobot wrote:

Z6 even now can be had for less than $1300, brand new off eBay. More than competitive to RP.

Except the RP comes with a warranty from a reliable and identifiable source if, of course, those are important to you.

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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 26,881
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
1

DaveR43 wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

HeavyDuty wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

JoeGuide wrote:

Z50 has magnesium weatherproof body with twin dial controls. Probably not difficult to replace the APSC sensor with a FF sensor for another $200 (just guessing). Manufacturing cost is shared by the two cameras. Add back a few features like CLS. Now we have Canon RP competitor with MRSP of <1200.

Forget about it. It is far more difficult than you think. You underestimate the work.

But, if that was one of the design parameters...

It was not. Nobody ever built a camera with that sort of specification because it would make it far too expensive and complicated, without any benefits for Nikon in this case. These cameras are not modular.

I don't think JoeGuide was intending to suggest the Z50 was designed for field replacement of the sensor. I think the suggestion was that a revision to the design would enable a FF mirrorless body to be produced, using essentailly the same innards.

In fact, Thom Hogan has suggested the same idea in his article 'Reader questions about the Z50". Right at the end, he has this question and answer:

Q "Can we tell anything from the Z50 positioning?"

A "Maybe. I wouldn't put it past Nikon to produce a Z5 full frame camera using the exact same Z50 body and specifications. It would be almost a no brainer to do. And it could be priced under the Z6 because it doesn't have the fancier EVF and LCD, the top display, or on-sensor VR (among other things)."

Modular is not necessarily the same as "field replaceable". Anyway, it is not just the sensor which needs to  be replaced, it's a totally different camera. As of the argument that the Z mount is far too large for the DX format, well, the F mount is also far too large yet they never had any DX/FX DSLR cameras.

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OP JoeGuide Regular Member • Posts: 132
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
2

DaveR43 wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

HeavyDuty wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

JoeGuide wrote:

Z50 has magnesium weatherproof body with twin dial controls. Probably not difficult to replace the APSC sensor with a FF sensor for another $200 (just guessing). Manufacturing cost is shared by the two cameras. Add back a few features like CLS. Now we have Canon RP competitor with MRSP of <1200.

Forget about it. It is far more difficult than you think. You underestimate the work.

But, if that was one of the design parameters...

It was not. Nobody ever built a camera with that sort of specification because it would make it far too expensive and complicated, without any benefits for Nikon in this case. These cameras are not modular.

I don't think JoeGuide was intending to suggest the Z50 was designed for field replacement of the sensor. I think the suggestion was that a revision to the design would enable a FF mirrorless body to be produced, using essentailly the same innards.

In fact, Thom Hogan has suggested the same idea in his article 'Reader questions about the Z50". Right at the end, he has this question and answer:

Q "Can we tell anything from the Z50 positioning?"

A "Maybe. I wouldn't put it past Nikon to produce a Z5 full frame camera using the exact same Z50 body and specifications. It would be almost a no brainer to do. And it could be priced under the Z6 because it doesn't have the fancier EVF and LCD, the top display, or on-sensor VR (among other things)."

Exactly. In a contracting market, it makes sense to limit the cost of production and recycle design or components whenever possible. As I alluded to earlier, to have a full line of camera body, you need 4 body types. Type A-pro extra large body. Type B-large body Z6/7. Type C-small body too small for IBIS (Z50), and Type D-headless (san EVF) soap bar. No need to keep reiterating the styling since Nikon ergonomic are the best in the business. No need to change the buttons (don't move the cheese per Thom).

Add whatever sensor into the existing body: APSC20 mp, APSC 36 mp, FF 24, large FF 40, superlarge FF 60, and high speed pro 24. Add or exclude IBIS.

Follow the nomenclature.

Z6/7--Z70 will be 36+ mp APSC camera with IBIS.

Z50-no IBIS--expect Z5 to have be FF with no IBIS.

Z40 will be budget camera with no EVF-- not sure if they will make san EVF FF.

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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 26,881
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
1

JoeGuide wrote:

DaveR43 wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

HeavyDuty wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

JoeGuide wrote:

Z50 has magnesium weatherproof body with twin dial controls. Probably not difficult to replace the APSC sensor with a FF sensor for another $200 (just guessing). Manufacturing cost is shared by the two cameras. Add back a few features like CLS. Now we have Canon RP competitor with MRSP of <1200.

Forget about it. It is far more difficult than you think. You underestimate the work.

But, if that was one of the design parameters...

It was not. Nobody ever built a camera with that sort of specification because it would make it far too expensive and complicated, without any benefits for Nikon in this case. These cameras are not modular.

I don't think JoeGuide was intending to suggest the Z50 was designed for field replacement of the sensor. I think the suggestion was that a revision to the design would enable a FF mirrorless body to be produced, using essentailly the same innards.

In fact, Thom Hogan has suggested the same idea in his article 'Reader questions about the Z50". Right at the end, he has this question and answer:

Q "Can we tell anything from the Z50 positioning?"

A "Maybe. I wouldn't put it past Nikon to produce a Z5 full frame camera using the exact same Z50 body and specifications. It would be almost a no brainer to do. And it could be priced under the Z6 because it doesn't have the fancier EVF and LCD, the top display, or on-sensor VR (among other things)."

Exactly. In a contracting market, it makes sense to limit the cost of production and recycle design or components whenever possible. As I alluded to earlier, to have a full line of camera body, you need 4 body types. Type A-pro extra large body. Type B-large body Z6/7. Type C-small body too small for IBIS (Z50), and Type D-headless (san EVF) soap bar. No need to keep reiterating the styling since Nikon ergonomic are the best in the business. No need to change the buttons (don't move the cheese per Thom).

Add whatever sensor into the existing body: APSC20 mp, APSC 36 mp, FF 24, large FF 40, superlarge FF 60, and high speed pro 24. Add or exclude IBIS.

Follow the nomenclature.

Z6/7--Z70 will be 36+ mp APSC camera with IBIS.

Z50-no IBIS--expect Z5 to have be FF with no IBIS.

Z40 will be budget camera with no EVF-- not sure if they will make san EVF FF.

Of course as much as possible is reused in different models but that doesn't mean the only difference between the Z50 and the Z5 will be the sensor.

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OP JoeGuide Regular Member • Posts: 132
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
1

olyflyer wrote:

JoeGuide wrote:

DaveR43 wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

HeavyDuty wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

JoeGuide wrote:

Z50 has magnesium weatherproof body with twin dial controls. Probably not difficult to replace the APSC sensor with a FF sensor for another $200 (just guessing). Manufacturing cost is shared by the two cameras. Add back a few features like CLS. Now we have Canon RP competitor with MRSP of <1200.

Forget about it. It is far more difficult than you think. You underestimate the work.

But, if that was one of the design parameters...

It was not. Nobody ever built a camera with that sort of specification because it would make it far too expensive and complicated, without any benefits for Nikon in this case. These cameras are not modular.

I don't think JoeGuide was intending to suggest the Z50 was designed for field replacement of the sensor. I think the suggestion was that a revision to the design would enable a FF mirrorless body to be produced, using essentailly the same innards.

In fact, Thom Hogan has suggested the same idea in his article 'Reader questions about the Z50". Right at the end, he has this question and answer:

Q "Can we tell anything from the Z50 positioning?"

A "Maybe. I wouldn't put it past Nikon to produce a Z5 full frame camera using the exact same Z50 body and specifications. It would be almost a no brainer to do. And it could be priced under the Z6 because it doesn't have the fancier EVF and LCD, the top display, or on-sensor VR (among other things)."

Exactly. In a contracting market, it makes sense to limit the cost of production and recycle design or components whenever possible. As I alluded to earlier, to have a full line of camera body, you need 4 body types. Type A-pro extra large body. Type B-large body Z6/7. Type C-small body too small for IBIS (Z50), and Type D-headless (san EVF) soap bar. No need to keep reiterating the styling since Nikon ergonomic are the best in the business. No need to change the buttons (don't move the cheese per Thom).

Add whatever sensor into the existing body: APSC20 mp, APSC 36 mp, FF 24, large FF 40, superlarge FF 60, and high speed pro 24. Add or exclude IBIS.

Follow the nomenclature.

Z6/7--Z70 will be 36+ mp APSC camera with IBIS.

Z50-no IBIS--expect Z5 to have be FF with no IBIS.

Z40 will be budget camera with no EVF-- not sure if they will make san EVF FF.

Of course as much as possible is reused in different models but that doesn't mean the only difference between the Z50 and the Z5 will be the sensor.

Agreed.  There will be subtle changes which does not have to significantly change the overall chassis.  The Z6/7 body is not perfect; it needs an external connector for a battery grip for shutter release, but these are small changes and I expect them to fix that, certain by the time Z70 is released.  That makes for accessories like battery grip to be more useful across the line.

Also the sensor and chassis changes can occur on alternate years.  Think about BMW series (I don't own or like BMW BTW).  The engine is changed alternate years to their body changes-often never the same year.

Cut cost, and standardize the way we interact with the camera.  Have accessories that can be used on more than one body type.  Create a camera system/environment that is keeps customers vested in what they have.  Certainly a winning strategy for Apple.

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HeavyDuty Senior Member • Posts: 1,915
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
1

olyflyer wrote:

HeavyDuty wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

JoeGuide wrote:

Z50 has magnesium weatherproof body with twin dial controls. Probably not difficult to replace the APSC sensor with a FF sensor for another $200 (just guessing). Manufacturing cost is shared by the two cameras. Add back a few features like CLS. Now we have Canon RP competitor with MRSP of <1200.

Forget about it. It is far more difficult than you think. You underestimate the work.

But, if that was one of the design parameters...

It was not. Nobody ever built a camera with that sort of specification because it would make it far too expensive and complicated, without any benefits for Nikon in this case. These cameras are not modular.

As others have pointed out, I think we are talking past each other - I saw JoeGuide’s comment as remarking that the engineering may have been done for this to be the basis for more than one body, not that a finished Z50 would be convertible to FF.  That’s what I was agreeing with.

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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 26,881
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
1

HeavyDuty wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

HeavyDuty wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

JoeGuide wrote:

Z50 has magnesium weatherproof body with twin dial controls. Probably not difficult to replace the APSC sensor with a FF sensor for another $200 (just guessing). Manufacturing cost is shared by the two cameras. Add back a few features like CLS. Now we have Canon RP competitor with MRSP of <1200.

Forget about it. It is far more difficult than you think. You underestimate the work.

But, if that was one of the design parameters...

It was not. Nobody ever built a camera with that sort of specification because it would make it far too expensive and complicated, without any benefits for Nikon in this case. These cameras are not modular.

As others have pointed out, I think we are talking past each other - I saw JoeGuide’s comment as remarking that the engineering may have been done for this to be the basis for more than one body, not that a finished Z50 would be convertible to FF. That’s what I was agreeing with.

...and that's exactly what disagree with. If all the works were done already then they would have released it with an FF sensor. It will need major differences not just a sensor change.

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fotorobot Forum Member • Posts: 73
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
1

olyflyer wrote:

fotorobot wrote:

JoeGuide wrote:

Z50 has magnesium weatherproof body with twin dial controls. Probably not difficult to replace the APSC sensor with a FF sensor for another $200 (just guessing). Manufacturing cost is shared by the two cameras. Add back a few features like CLS. Now we have Canon RP competitor with MRSP of <1200.

Z6 even now can be had for less than $1300, brand new off eBay. More than competitive to RP.

Remember the old truth... If it is too good to be true, then it is not true. EBay would be the last place to buy a new camera from. At least for me.

Sure, if people prefer to pay extra $500 for 1 year of warranty - totally their call.

perrrob
perrrob Forum Member • Posts: 51
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
1

Exactly. In a contracting market, it makes sense to limit the cost of production and recycle design or components whenever possible. As I alluded to earlier, to have a full line of camera body, you need 4 body types. Type A-pro extra large body. Type B-large body Z6/7. Type C-small body too small for IBIS (Z50), and Type D-headless (san EVF) soap bar. No need to keep reiterating the styling since Nikon ergonomic are the best in the business. No need to change the buttons (don't move the cheese per Thom).

Add whatever sensor into the existing body: APSC20 mp, APSC 36 mp, FF 24, large FF 40, superlarge FF 60, and high speed pro 24. Add or exclude IBIS.

Follow the nomenclature.

Z6/7--Z70 will be 36+ mp APSC camera with IBIS.

Z50-no IBIS--expect Z5 to have be FF with no IBIS.

Z40 will be budget camera with no EVF-- not sure if they will make san EVF FF.

I'm not sure if it's feasible but a FF sensor in a Z50 type smaller body would definitively get my attention.

I'm still on a DX DSLR because I prefer the smaller form factor (compared to FX) of the camera body but the lack of good quality native DX lenses is definitively the reason why I could be persuaded to go full frame mirrorless in the future.

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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 26,881
Re: Could the Z50 be Trojan horse for the new Z5 budget FF camera?
1

JoeGuide wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

JoeGuide wrote:

DaveR43 wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

HeavyDuty wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

JoeGuide wrote:

Z50 has magnesium weatherproof body with twin dial controls. Probably not difficult to replace the APSC sensor with a FF sensor for another $200 (just guessing). Manufacturing cost is shared by the two cameras. Add back a few features like CLS. Now we have Canon RP competitor with MRSP of <1200.

Forget about it. It is far more difficult than you think. You underestimate the work.

But, if that was one of the design parameters...

It was not. Nobody ever built a camera with that sort of specification because it would make it far too expensive and complicated, without any benefits for Nikon in this case. These cameras are not modular.

I don't think JoeGuide was intending to suggest the Z50 was designed for field replacement of the sensor. I think the suggestion was that a revision to the design would enable a FF mirrorless body to be produced, using essentailly the same innards.

In fact, Thom Hogan has suggested the same idea in his article 'Reader questions about the Z50". Right at the end, he has this question and answer:

Q "Can we tell anything from the Z50 positioning?"

A "Maybe. I wouldn't put it past Nikon to produce a Z5 full frame camera using the exact same Z50 body and specifications. It would be almost a no brainer to do. And it could be priced under the Z6 because it doesn't have the fancier EVF and LCD, the top display, or on-sensor VR (among other things)."

Exactly. In a contracting market, it makes sense to limit the cost of production and recycle design or components whenever possible. As I alluded to earlier, to have a full line of camera body, you need 4 body types. Type A-pro extra large body. Type B-large body Z6/7. Type C-small body too small for IBIS (Z50), and Type D-headless (san EVF) soap bar. No need to keep reiterating the styling since Nikon ergonomic are the best in the business. No need to change the buttons (don't move the cheese per Thom).

Add whatever sensor into the existing body: APSC20 mp, APSC 36 mp, FF 24, large FF 40, superlarge FF 60, and high speed pro 24. Add or exclude IBIS.

Follow the nomenclature.

Z6/7--Z70 will be 36+ mp APSC camera with IBIS.

Z50-no IBIS--expect Z5 to have be FF with no IBIS.

Z40 will be budget camera with no EVF-- not sure if they will make san EVF FF.

Of course as much as possible is reused in different models but that doesn't mean the only difference between the Z50 and the Z5 will be the sensor.

Agreed. There will be subtle changes which does not have to significantly change the overall chassis. The Z6/7 body is not perfect; it needs an external connector for a battery grip for shutter release, but these are small changes and I expect them to fix that, certain by the time Z70 is released. That makes for accessories like battery grip to be more useful across the line.

Also the sensor and chassis changes can occur on alternate years. Think about BMW series (I don't own or like BMW BTW). The engine is changed alternate years to their body changes-often never the same year.

Funny you'd say that about the BMW... I have just last week placed an order on one, production started this week (confirmed from Munich) and the delivery will be the last week of November. Any specific reason why you don't like BMW? I never had one before but had one for a test weekend two weeks ago and must say that I was very happy with it. Configured and ordered one and that was it.

Cut cost, and standardize the way we interact with the camera. Have accessories that can be used on more than one body type. Create a camera system/environment that is keeps customers vested in what they have. Certainly a winning strategy for Apple.

Yes and it is not very revolutionary.

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