THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution

Started Oct 12, 2019 | Discussions
krikman Regular Member • Posts: 431
THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution
4

Don't take seriously mirrorless camera prices. If manufactured with same price margin as DSLR they are 3x overpriced today. Extra money compensates for R&D.

In DSLR world DX vs FX had a big cost difference. Cost to manufacture FX mirrorbox, AF module and viewfinder prizm with same tolerances were about 4x more compared to DX parts. Othervise in mirrorless cameras cost differences are minimal and almost solely are sensor costs.

But production expences can be minimized with large scale. So 'N-company' needs product that utilises bulk of common components and tecnologies and can be produced and sold massively. It must be differentiated from premium products in fundamental qualities for consumer (DX). Also it lacks the only precision mechanical component that needs an adjustments - IBIS.

Here comes The Z50. If sold >100k units per month its price can be lowered to $300 and still make profit. And lower manufacturing cost for future FF mirrorless with IBIS in $1000 range.

Z50 starts Big Price Wars in mirrorless market and ready to win for Nikon.

P.S.: Exactly 10 years ago mirrorless evolution begun with Olympus Pen. Today Nikon made mirrorless revolution accomplished.

Bridgehouse Regular Member • Posts: 335
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution
3

krikman wrote:

Don't take seriously mirrorless camera prices. If manufactured with same price margin as DSLR they are 3x overpriced today. Extra money compensates for R&D.

In DSLR world DX vs FX had a big cost difference. Cost to manufacture FX mirrorbox, AF module and viewfinder prizm with same tolerances were about 4x more compared to DX parts. Othervise in mirrorless cameras cost differences are minimal and almost solely are sensor costs.

But production expences can be minimized with large scale. So 'N-company' needs product that utilises bulk of common components and tecnologies and can be produced and sold massively. It must be differentiated from premium products in fundamental qualities for consumer (DX). Also it lacks the only precision mechanical component that needs an adjustments - IBIS.

Here comes The Z50. If sold >100k units per month its price can be lowered to $300 and still make profit. And lower manufacturing cost for future FF mirrorless with IBIS in $1000 range.

Z50 starts Big Price Wars in mirrorless market and ready to win for Nikon.

P.S.: Exactly 10 years ago mirrorless evolution begun with Olympus Pen. Today Nikon made mirrorless revolution accomplished.

Glad you edited that to z50.. 😀

Just one question tho...

Eh?

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justmeMN Veteran Member • Posts: 9,552
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution
11

No, the Z50 isn't going to be a high-volume product.

Nikon financial document

OP krikman Regular Member • Posts: 431
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution
2

justmeMN wrote:

No, the Z50 isn't going to be a high-volume product.

Nikon financial document

It is intended to be high-volume. Its sole purpose is overthrow market with large quantity cheap-to-produce expendable war units to gain base for Z-mount.

whimsicalmike
whimsicalmike Contributing Member • Posts: 819
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution
10

krikman wrote:

Don't take seriously mirrorless camera prices. If manufactured with same price margin as DSLR they are 3x overpriced today. Extra money compensates for R&D.

In DSLR world DX vs FX had a big cost difference. Cost to manufacture FX mirrorbox, AF module and viewfinder prizm with same tolerances were about 4x more compared to DX parts. Othervise in mirrorless cameras cost differences are minimal and almost solely are sensor costs.

But production expences can be minimized with large scale. So 'N-company' needs product that utilises bulk of common components and tecnologies and can be produced and sold massively. It must be differentiated from premium products in fundamental qualities for consumer (DX). Also it lacks the only precision mechanical component that needs an adjustments - IBIS.

Here comes The Z50. If sold >100k units per month its price can be lowered to $300 and still make profit. And lower manufacturing cost for future FF mirrorless with IBIS in $1000 range.

Z50 starts Big Price Wars in mirrorless market and ready to win for Nikon.

P.S.: Exactly 10 years ago mirrorless evolution begun with Olympus Pen. Today Nikon made mirrorless revolution accomplished.

can you reveal how you came by Nikons costs.

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z2122
z2122 Senior Member • Posts: 1,294
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution
2

krikman wrote:

justmeMN wrote:

No, the Z50 isn't going to be a high-volume product.

Nikon financial document

It is intended to be high-volume. Its sole purpose is overthrow market with large quantity cheap-to-produce expendable war units to gain base for Z-mount.

exactly - this is for mass market , price will come down to 500/600  €/$ and this will make the base for the success of the Z-mount . will result in more lens options from third party lens producer like tamron and sigma.

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karlreed Senior Member • Posts: 2,065
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution No IBIS
8

I am considering a move to mirrorless, however, DX without IBIS is for me not worth the effort!

I am disappointed..

Karl

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karl reed "let's change the tone-civility is in!"

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OP krikman Regular Member • Posts: 431
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution
2

whimsicalmike wrote:

krikman wrote:

Here comes The Z50. If sold >100k units per month its price can be lowered to $300 and still make profit. And lower manufacturing cost for future FF mirrorless with IBIS in $1000 range.

can you reveal how you came by Nikons costs.

That's my speculative assumption based on current Nikon retail prices for mass products: $600 for D5X00 body and $2800 for D8X0 body.

I assume that production costs for mirrorless in the same class at least 2x less. And can be farther lowered in quantity production.

OP krikman Regular Member • Posts: 431
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution No IBIS
1

karlreed wrote:

I am considering a move to mirrorless, however, DX without IBIS is for me not worth the effort!

I am disappointed..

Karl

My first reactions were the same. Then I thought why Nikon cut z50 so much?

mgblack74 Contributing Member • Posts: 899
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution
3

krikman wrote:

Don't take seriously mirrorless camera prices. If manufactured with same price margin as DSLR they are 3x overpriced today. Extra money compensates for R&D.

In DSLR world DX vs FX had a big cost difference. Cost to manufacture FX mirrorbox, AF module and viewfinder prizm with same tolerances were about 4x more compared to DX parts. Othervise in mirrorless cameras cost differences are minimal and almost solely are sensor costs.

But production expences can be minimized with large scale. So 'N-company' needs product that utilises bulk of common components and tecnologies and can be produced and sold massively. It must be differentiated from premium products in fundamental qualities for consumer (DX). Also it lacks the only precision mechanical component that needs an adjustments - IBIS.

Here comes The Z50. If sold >100k units per month its price can be lowered to $300 and still make profit. And lower manufacturing cost for future FF mirrorless with IBIS in $1000 range.

Z50 starts Big Price Wars in mirrorless market and ready to win for Nikon.

P.S.: Exactly 10 years ago mirrorless evolution begun with Olympus Pen. Today Nikon made mirrorless revolution accomplished.

I'm not quite sure why people get angry that a company is trying to make a profit. Do you you to work to earn a wage h that only just covers your expenses? Or do you try to earn a wage than covers your expenses and have plenty left over for living? (And I don't mean eating, I mean LIVING, like travel, buying cameras etc ). So why should a company price a product that only covers their manufacturing costs?

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mrbr Veteran Member • Posts: 3,412
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution No IBIS
1

karlreed wrote:

I am considering a move to mirrorless, however, DX without IBIS is for me not worth the effort!

I am disappointed..

Karl

Yes, I understand. But the Z50 is only the beginning of the dx mirrorless nikon camera line …. IMO one of the future Zx0 bodies with x>5 will have IBIS ….  just wait ….. also, teh Z50 will become cheaper and IMO  nikon will in the future do cash-back actions to  !

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OP krikman Regular Member • Posts: 431
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution
1

mgblack74 wrote:

I'm not quite sure why people get angry that a company is trying to make a profit. Do you you to work to earn a wage h that only just covers your expenses? Or do you try to earn a wage than covers your expenses and have plenty left over for living? (And I don't mean eating, I mean LIVING, like travel, buying cameras etc ). So why should a company price a product that only covers their manufacturing costs?

If you run a production line sometimes to keep producing at 0% margin means less expences than stop production at all.

Kurgo Regular Member • Posts: 333
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution
11

This camera will not sell massively in any way, shape or form. You can drivel on about "Ignore the price of ML" all you want, the price is 1000$ with a lens, if you think Nikon is going to lower it any time soon you're fresh out of luck. And what will a consumer, a photography newbie, presented with 3 different systems with one being exponentially more expensive than the other two and having only 3 native lenses, say?

I think he'll say "nah, I'll go with a Canon M" or a Fuji, or a Sony, insert whichever company name you like.

The mirrorless revolution happened when Sony introduced the alpha series. As hugely flawed as they were, we wouldn't be where we are today (especially with Nikon and Canon who would have sat on their a*ses for centuries if it were up to them) if Sony hadn't given it a try.

To describe anything related to the z50 as "mirrorless revolution" is incredibly laughable, to put it mildly.

But by all means, if unrealistic daydreaming is your hobby, do continue.

OP krikman Regular Member • Posts: 431
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution No IBIS
2

mrbr wrote:

karlreed wrote:

I am considering a move to mirrorless, however, DX without IBIS is for me not worth the effort!

I am disappointed..

Karl

Yes, I understand. But the Z50 is only the beginning of the dx mirrorless nikon camera line …. IMO one of the future Zx0 bodies with x>5 will have IBIS …. just wait ….. also, teh Z50 will become cheaper and IMO nikon will in the future do cash-back actions to !

I don't think that full featured DX for Z-mouth are economically feasible. The sole price difference is sensor price. How much can you gain in cheaper sensor? I think less $100 per unit.

In DSLR world there were differences in mirror box and viewfinder construction that differentiate prices between FX and DX. Also it was easier achieve high FPS with lighter and smaller DX mirror.

OP krikman Regular Member • Posts: 431
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution
2

Kurgo wrote:

This camera will not sell massively in any way, shape or form. You can drivel on about "Ignore the price of ML" all you want, the price is 1000$ with a lens, if you think Nikon is going to lower it any time soon you're fresh out of luck. And what will a consumer, a photography newbie, presented with 3 different systems with one being exponentially more expensive than the other two and having only 3 native lenses, say?

I think he'll say "nah, I'll go with a Canon M" or a Fuji, or a Sony, insert whichever company name you like.

The mirrorless revolution happened when Sony introduced the alpha series. As hugely flawed as they were, we wouldn't be where we are today (especially with Nikon and Canon who would have sat on their a*ses for centuries if it were up to them) if Sony hadn't given it a try.

To describe anything related to the z50 as "mirrorless revolution" is incredibly laughable, to put it mildly.

But by all means, if unrealistic daydreaming is your hobby, do continue.

Z50 intended (and designed) to be highly profitable at $400 with lens. And It is a part of complete Z system with no breaks of incompatibility upto high end. And it is system friendly for F-mount lenses heilroom.

That differs from DX only niche systems of Fuji and EOS-M. I never mind Sony cameras and believe they are 3x overpriced too.

As for me I never think of using mirrorless cameras myself since early 2000s when they called compacts. And still not see reasons for mirrorless.

michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 14,363
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution
11

Revolution?  To quote "the Princess Bride"...  I do not think you know the meaning of that word.

In no way is the Z50 a revolution in anything.  Your post seems to be all about the price of mirrorless manufacturing costs.  Let's go with that for the moment for the sake of argument.  Where does Nikon and the Z50 revolutionize any of that over what Sony, Fuji, Olympus, etc. have been doing for years.

Based on your cost argument the only revolution happening in mirrorless would seem to be that the camera companies have found a way to maximize profits by selling cheap to produce cameras at maximum prices.

Or maybe your cost revolution is intended to be sarcasm?

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karlreed Senior Member • Posts: 2,065
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution Too Expensive? Nah
2

I am electronics engineer who was trained on valves and transistors..

I cannot get used to the idea that systems that hold what would have been buildings full of hardware in the 1960's for a few hundred dollars in 2019 are expensive.

More than what I want to or will pay?

Sure.

But, not expensive!

Without IBIS, I'm not interested in Nikon DX-Z. As we speak an EM1.2 and lenses are a better choice.

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OP krikman Regular Member • Posts: 431
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution Too Expensive? Nah
6

karlreed wrote:

I am electronics engineer who was trained on valves and transistors..

I cannot get used to the idea that systems that hold what would have been buildings full of hardware in the 1960's for a few hundred dollars in 2019 are expensive.

More than what I want to or will pay?

Sure.

But, not expensive!

Without IBIS, I'm not interested in Nikon DX-Z. As we speak an EM1.2 and lenses are a better choice.

I begun my career as radio ingeneer in late 1980-s and visited several semiconductor plants as a customer's representative. And I was surprised how cheep those low-integrity chips were just from production line, before they tested, and how much cost added by package, testing and qualifying. And besides excessive testing, production expences of 10 transistors on chip or million were almost the same.

Also I saw how profitable to exclude mechanical components from device, especially those that needed manual adjustments and assembly. Since that time I notice in every piece of equipment where and how manufacturers save its money by cutting down sheer number of components in their devices.

At first I was surprised why no IBIS in Z50, then I found only one reason for it - the Z50 designed for very low price, cutting down every costly components.

DaveR43 Senior Member • Posts: 1,485
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution Too Expensive? Nah
1

krikman wrote:

karlreed wrote:

I am electronics engineer who was trained on valves and transistors..

I cannot get used to the idea that systems that hold what would have been buildings full of hardware in the 1960's for a few hundred dollars in 2019 are expensive.

More than what I want to or will pay?

Sure.

But, not expensive!

Without IBIS, I'm not interested in Nikon DX-Z. As we speak an EM1.2 and lenses are a better choice.

I begun my career as radio ingeneer in late 1980-s and visited several semiconductor plants as a customer's representative. And I was surprised how cheep those low-integrity chips were just from production line, before they tested, and how much cost added by package, testing and qualifying. And besides excessive testing, production expences of 10 transistors on chip or million were almost the same.

Also I saw how profitable to exclude mechanical components from device, especially those that needed manual adjustments and assembly. Since that time I notice in every piece of equipment where and how manufacturers save its money by cutting down sheer number of components in their devices.

At first I was surprised why no IBIS in Z50, then I found only one reason for it - the Z50 designed for very low price, cutting down every costly components.

I agree with that.

And I'd guess that the cost of a VR assemby in a very small standard zoom lens is a lot less than an IBIS in a camera body...

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Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 20,104
Re: THE Z50 is a mirrorless revolution
1

z2122 wrote

exactly - this is for mass market , price will come down to 500/600 €/$ and this will make the base for the success of the Z-mount .

In the UK with one lens and the FTZ it is already down to around £800 excluding sales tax.

Some might recognise without the lens and FTZ the body price is close to £/$ 600.

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In lots of ways good photography is much more about how equipment is used rather than anything else.

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