90D Video and sharpening

Started 2 months ago | Discussions
Dragonrider
Dragonrider Regular Member • Posts: 121
90D Video and sharpening
2

I ran an experiment with some of the first footage I shot with the 90D. After compiling some clips in Premier and exporting, I reran the export after setting unsharp mask to 150 with a radius of 1.5. The difference is very noticeable. The lens was the 800mm L which is pretty sharp. The camera was set to default sharpening and there is one higher setting which I haven't tried yet, but this worked well. The detail is there, but down a bit on the MTF curve. Here are a couple of frame grabs at the same point in the video.  After sharpening, I think the 90D video is very good.

Before

After sharpening

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DavidArmenPhoto Regular Member • Posts: 343
Re: 90D Video and sharpening

Dragonrider wrote:

I ran an experiment with some of the first footage I shot with the 90D. After compiling some clips in Premier and exporting, I reran the export after setting unsharp mask to 150 with a radius of 1.5. The difference is very noticeable. The lens was the 800mm L which is pretty sharp. The camera was set to default sharpening and there is one higher setting which I haven't tried yet, but this worked well. The detail is there, but down a bit on the MTF curve. Here are a couple of frame grabs at the same point in the video. After sharpening, I think the 90D video is very good.

Before

After sharpening

I agree! 
everyone had been saying how the 90D 4K is so soft compared to the competition but if sharpened properly it can look great!

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Alexsfo Senior Member • Posts: 2,308
Re: 90D Video and sharpening

I would also add that frame grabs are not ideal for IPB codec. Canon video is traditionally undersharpened. I’ve done tests (as many on youtube) and in-camera sharpening is better than in post especially for IPB codec. Add two bars of sharpening for your picture style. It is important to review how the final video look like on a big screen at a proper viewing distance. I have never had issue with 4k video detail on 5div, eos r and even M50. Still waiting for my m6ii to compare it on a big screen; allegedly pixel binned upscaled video may perceive differently in dynamic scenes.

By the way, can somebody check if 90d allows 4k videos to be transferred to iphone via app?

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G Dickson Contributing Member • Posts: 659
Re: 90D Video and sharpening

Many thanks for sharing your results.  It's all getting quite interesting and I am seriously interested in this camera to run alongside my 6Dii for better reach and video features.

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Dragonrider
OP Dragonrider Regular Member • Posts: 121
Re: 90D Video and sharpening
2

I just did a quick test with a resolution chart between the full frame mode and the crop mode. There is a pretty big difference in a couple of ways. The full frame mode only has about 75% of the resolution of the crop mode and it shows a LOT more aliasing. This is consistent with the speculation that the full frame mode is quad pixel binned (i.e. 2x2  with 3480 effective horizontal resolution) and then upscaled to 4k and the crop mode is captured at 6k and downscaled to 4k. That difference makes the 90D hugely better for video than the M6 mk II if you use the crop mode. Pixel binning always produces aliasing, because there is no alias protection from either the AAF or the lens at the larger effective pixel size. I ran the test with the 18-135 STM and there was virtually no aliasing in the crop mode. It will be interesting to see if down the road we get an M5 mk II with a bigger battery and the crop feature.

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Alexsfo Senior Member • Posts: 2,308
Re: 90D Video and sharpening
1

Dragonrider wrote:

I just did a quick test with a resolution chart between the full frame mode and the crop mode. There is a pretty big difference in a couple of ways. The full frame mode only has about 75% of the resolution of the crop mode and it shows a LOT more aliasing. This is consistent with the speculation that the full frame mode is quad pixel binned (i.e. 2x2 with 3480 effective horizontal resolution) and then upscaled to 4k and the crop mode is captured at 6k and downscaled to 4k. That difference makes the 90D hugely better for video than the M6 mk II if you use the crop mode. Pixel binning always produces aliasing, because there is no alias protection from either the AAF or the lens at the larger effective pixel size. I ran the test with the 18-135 STM and there was virtually no aliasing in the crop mode. It will be interesting to see if down the road we get an M5 mk II with a bigger battery and the crop feature.

dpreview in its recent tv review completely ignored the crop option.

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Dragonrider
OP Dragonrider Regular Member • Posts: 121
Re: 90D Video and sharpening

Alexsfo wrote:

Dragonrider wrote:

I just did a quick test with a resolution chart between the full frame mode and the crop mode. There is a pretty big difference in a couple of ways. The full frame mode only has about 75% of the resolution of the crop mode and it shows a LOT more aliasing. This is consistent with the speculation that the full frame mode is quad pixel binned (i.e. 2x2 with 3480 effective horizontal resolution) and then upscaled to 4k and the crop mode is captured at 6k and downscaled to 4k. That difference makes the 90D hugely better for video than the M6 mk II if you use the crop mode. Pixel binning always produces aliasing, because there is no alias protection from either the AAF or the lens at the larger effective pixel size. I ran the test with the 18-135 STM and there was virtually no aliasing in the crop mode. It will be interesting to see if down the road we get an M5 mk II with a bigger battery and the crop feature.

dpreview in its recent tv review completely ignored the crop option.

DPR's video didn't match what I was seeing and that is what inspired me to make the test.  They did mention the crop mode in their initial review at the racetrack, but didn't really test it out.  I am guessing the reason the M6 II doesn't have the crop mode is because of both available battery power and thermal issues in the small body, but from what I can see, the crop mode video is right in there with Sony and Panny.  Definitely the best video Canon has put in a still camera so far.  That augurs well for the next few FF bodies.

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RLight Senior Member • Posts: 1,352
Re: 90D Video and sharpening

You doing clean HDMI output?

Also, be wary of both the impact of picture styles and their sharpening values, and, more importantly, the ability to harness DLO in video...

If, you haven't already, verify the lens you're shooting video with is support in your camera with a DLO profile. If not, load up the Canon camera utility and download it to your 90D. DLO corrects for a variety of lens abberation, including, diffraction which will be a big deal for video shooters that will undoubtedly be using f-stops greater than the DLA of 5.2 of the 90D. DLO to my knowledge does apply to video. I could be wrong though, but that's what I gathered from the marketing material.

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Dragonrider
OP Dragonrider Regular Member • Posts: 121
Re: 90D Video and sharpening

RLight wrote:

You doing clean HDMI output?

Also, be wary of both the impact of picture styles and their sharpening values, and, more importantly, the ability to harness DLO in video...

If, you haven't already, verify the lens you're shooting video with is support in your camera with a DLO profile. If not, load up the Canon camera utility and download it to your 90D. DLO corrects for a variety of lens abberation, including, diffraction which will be a big deal for video shooters that will undoubtedly be using f-stops greater than the DLA of 5.2 of the 90D. DLO to my knowledge does apply to video. I could be wrong though, but that's what I gathered from the marketing material.

Since 4k is either pixel binned or downscaled, the DLA of 5.2 for stills isn't really relevant.  Sharpening is relevant and kicking all the way to 7 seems to produce the best result without post sharpening.  The camera does use the same picture style for stills as video, so that could be a switching issue for someone shooting JPEGs, but I only shoot RAW, so see no issue with leaving the sharpening turned up for video.  I am recording on the camera, not using HDMI out, but the codec seems pretty decent.

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Bionic963 Regular Member • Posts: 486
Re: 90D Video and sharpening

RLight wrote:

DLO to my knowledge does apply to video. I could be wrong though, but that's what I gathered from the marketing material.

I don't think DLO applies to video..

https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=ART162839

"Digital Lens Optimizer only works with RAW images. JPEG, TIFF, S-RAW, and M-RAW images cannot be corrected."

-- hide signature --

Brook

RLight Senior Member • Posts: 1,352
Re: 90D Video and sharpening

Bionic963 wrote:

RLight wrote:

DLO to my knowledge does apply to video. I could be wrong though, but that's what I gathered from the marketing material.

I don't think DLO applies to video..

https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=ART162839

"Digital Lens Optimizer only works with RAW images. JPEG, TIFF, S-RAW, and M-RAW images cannot be corrected."

In the context of DPP4, that article is specific to that context. DLO does not impact raw data. Correct.

It does impact JPEG and other flat files, which, video is a flat file.

I've heard various reps say in-camera corrections carry over to training videos for Canon direct, and that's one of the perks of Canon. Now, whether or not that means DLO?

https://snapshot.canon-asia.com/article/en/5-things-made-possible-with-digic-image-processor

In-camera DLO is possible with DIGIC8.

Lens-corrections do apply to video on newer Canons.

Does that mean DLO > Movie? Maybe. It's possible.

Picture styles and lens corrections outside of DLO is 100% from my understanding. DLO is possible but I can't verify it with 100% sourcing. If I find a source that says yea/nay, I'll pass along but DLO data is very scarce on the web.

Loading up the lens profile isn't going to hurt you though. It will help at least your stills if you're a JPEG shooter, or, a RAW shooter that uses DPP4 as it will auto-tag the photo with the optimal DLO quantity, but, only if the profile is loaded for the lens shot at the time of shooting. Otherwise you'll have to adjust the DLO slider to taste if you use it after the fact and didn't load the profile in-camera.

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Dragonrider
OP Dragonrider Regular Member • Posts: 121
Re: 90D Video and sharpening

Bionic963 wrote:

RLight wrote:

DLO to my knowledge does apply to video. I could be wrong though, but that's what I gathered from the marketing material.

I don't think DLO applies to video..

https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=ART162839

"Digital Lens Optimizer only works with RAW images. JPEG, TIFF, S-RAW, and M-RAW images cannot be corrected."

You are reading the wrong manual.  That manual is instructions for DPP.  The camera certainly does apply DLO to in-camera JPEGs, so DPP won't try to correct twice.    DLO is NOT applied to video, so buy good lenses for video.

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RLight Senior Member • Posts: 1,352
Re: 90D Video and sharpening

Dragonrider wrote:

Bionic963 wrote:

RLight wrote:

DLO to my knowledge does apply to video. I could be wrong though, but that's what I gathered from the marketing material.

I don't think DLO applies to video..

https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=ART162839

"Digital Lens Optimizer only works with RAW images. JPEG, TIFF, S-RAW, and M-RAW images cannot be corrected."

You are reading the wrong manual. That manual is instructions for DPP. The camera certainly does apply DLO to in-camera JPEGs, so DPP won't try to correct twice. DLO is NOT applied to video, so buy good lenses for video.

Do you have a source for the DLO is not applied to video? I've heard it implied that it is, but I haven't read yea or nay explictly. It's new to DIGIC8 though, so details are scarce. I wouldn't assume yes, or no. I would say loading it up won't hurt in the event it is being used / can be used.

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Dragonrider
OP Dragonrider Regular Member • Posts: 121
Re: 90D Video and sharpening
1

RLight wrote:

Bionic963 wrote:

RLight wrote:

DLO to my knowledge does apply to video. I could be wrong though, but that's what I gathered from the marketing material.

I don't think DLO applies to video..

https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=ART162839

"Digital Lens Optimizer only works with RAW images. JPEG, TIFF, S-RAW, and M-RAW images cannot be corrected."

In the context of DPP4, that article is specific to that context. DLO does not impact raw data. Correct.

It does impact JPEG and other flat files, which, video is a flat file.

I've heard various reps say in-camera corrections carry over to training videos for Canon direct, and that's one of the perks of Canon. Now, whether or not that means DLO?

https://snapshot.canon-asia.com/article/en/5-things-made-possible-with-digic-image-processor

In-camera DLO is possible with DIGIC8.

Lens-corrections do apply to video on newer Canons.

Does that mean DLO > Movie? Maybe. It's possible.

Picture styles and lens corrections outside of DLO is 100% from my understanding. DLO is possible but I can't verify it with 100% sourcing. If I find a source that says yea/nay, I'll pass along but DLO data is very scarce on the web.

Loading up the lens profile isn't going to hurt you though. It will help at least your stills if you're a JPEG shooter, or, a RAW shooter that uses DPP4 as it will auto-tag the photo with the optimal DLO quantity, but, only if the profile is loaded for the lens shot at the time of shooting. Otherwise you'll have to adjust the DLO slider to taste if you use it after the fact and didn't load the profile in-camera.

The 90D manual specifically states that lens correction does NOT apply in movie mode.

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RLight Senior Member • Posts: 1,352
Re: 90D Video and sharpening

Dragonrider wrote:

RLight wrote:

Bionic963 wrote:

RLight wrote:

DLO to my knowledge does apply to video. I could be wrong though, but that's what I gathered from the marketing material.

I don't think DLO applies to video..

https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=ART162839

"Digital Lens Optimizer only works with RAW images. JPEG, TIFF, S-RAW, and M-RAW images cannot be corrected."

In the context of DPP4, that article is specific to that context. DLO does not impact raw data. Correct.

It does impact JPEG and other flat files, which, video is a flat file.

I've heard various reps say in-camera corrections carry over to training videos for Canon direct, and that's one of the perks of Canon. Now, whether or not that means DLO?

https://snapshot.canon-asia.com/article/en/5-things-made-possible-with-digic-image-processor

In-camera DLO is possible with DIGIC8.

Lens-corrections do apply to video on newer Canons.

Does that mean DLO > Movie? Maybe. It's possible.

Picture styles and lens corrections outside of DLO is 100% from my understanding. DLO is possible but I can't verify it with 100% sourcing. If I find a source that says yea/nay, I'll pass along but DLO data is very scarce on the web.

Loading up the lens profile isn't going to hurt you though. It will help at least your stills if you're a JPEG shooter, or, a RAW shooter that uses DPP4 as it will auto-tag the photo with the optimal DLO quantity, but, only if the profile is loaded for the lens shot at the time of shooting. Otherwise you'll have to adjust the DLO slider to taste if you use it after the fact and didn't load the profile in-camera.

The 90D manual specifically states that lens correction does NOT apply in movie mode.

Haven't read it

Page number? I believe you, just want to read that section myself.

Btw, this directly contradicts Canon reps in the past. I'm wondering if either something has changed or it's in the context of 4K, 1080/120, hence my asking as those would make sense as highly demanding to the CPU to do both DLO and 4K or 1080/120.

Edit (found it):

´üČLens aberration correctionM
Peripheral illumination and chromatic aberration can be corrected as you record movies. For details on lens aberration correction, see =206.

And page 206...

o For movie recording, [Digital Lens Optimizer] will not appear. (Correction is

not possible.)

You're right.

I stand corrected.

Canon reps are right (there is lens correction in video), but DLO is a negative.

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Dragonrider
OP Dragonrider Regular Member • Posts: 121
Re: 90D Video and sharpening

RLight wrote:

Dragonrider wrote:

Bionic963 wrote:

RLight wrote:

DLO to my knowledge does apply to video. I could be wrong though, but that's what I gathered from the marketing material.

I don't think DLO applies to video..

https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=ART162839

"Digital Lens Optimizer only works with RAW images. JPEG, TIFF, S-RAW, and M-RAW images cannot be corrected."

You are reading the wrong manual. That manual is instructions for DPP. The camera certainly does apply DLO to in-camera JPEGs, so DPP won't try to correct twice. DLO is NOT applied to video, so buy good lenses for video.

Do you have a source for the DLO is not applied to video? I've heard it implied that it is, but I haven't read yea or nay explictly. It's new to DIGIC8 though, so details are scarce. I wouldn't assume yes, or no. I would say loading it up won't hurt in the event it is being used / can be used.

Yes, the 90D manual specifically states that lens correction is not possible in movie mode.  I agree that loading the profile will not have a detrimental effect, but it will also have no effect on video.  It is frankly only useful if you shoot JPEGs since both DPP and LR have lens correction available for RAWs and DLO is not applied to RAW files in the camera.

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RLight Senior Member • Posts: 1,352
Re: 90D Video and sharpening

Dragonrider wrote:

RLight wrote:

Dragonrider wrote:

Bionic963 wrote:

RLight wrote:

DLO to my knowledge does apply to video. I could be wrong though, but that's what I gathered from the marketing material.

I don't think DLO applies to video..

https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=ART162839

"Digital Lens Optimizer only works with RAW images. JPEG, TIFF, S-RAW, and M-RAW images cannot be corrected."

You are reading the wrong manual. That manual is instructions for DPP. The camera certainly does apply DLO to in-camera JPEGs, so DPP won't try to correct twice. DLO is NOT applied to video, so buy good lenses for video.

Do you have a source for the DLO is not applied to video? I've heard it implied that it is, but I haven't read yea or nay explictly. It's new to DIGIC8 though, so details are scarce. I wouldn't assume yes, or no. I would say loading it up won't hurt in the event it is being used / can be used.

Yes, the 90D manual specifically states that lens correction is not possible in movie mode. I agree that loading the profile will not have a detrimental effect, but it will also have no effect on video. It is frankly only useful if you shoot JPEGs since both DPP and LR have lens correction available for RAWs and DLO is not applied to RAW files in the camera.

It does auto-tag optimal values, at time of shooting, to the RAWs, if loaded at the time of shooting.

It's a tag, not an application though. Useful, if you use DLO for RAW processing (I do, and 90D shooters should consider due to it's diffraction correction).

The default 50 value if not tagged will amplify high ISO noise. If you want the values it produces for an ISO response and didn't load the profile, I have profiled it, no pun...

ISO 100 - 35.3

ISO 125 - 32.8

ISO 160 - 30.4

ISO 200 - 28.1

ISO 250 - 25.0

ISO 320 - 23.3

ISO 400 - 21.0

ISO 500 - 18.6

ISO 640 - 16.2

ISO 800 - 12.2

ISO 800+ - 12.2?

.

Btw, different picture profiles not only use differing sharpness, but, also have differing tonal response and is worth looking at.

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Sharlin
Sharlin Contributing Member • Posts: 675
Re: 90D Video and sharpening

Dragonrider wrote:

RLight wrote:

Do you have a source for the DLO is not applied to video? I've heard it implied that it is, but I haven't read yea or nay explictly. It's new to DIGIC8 though, so details are scarce. I wouldn't assume yes, or no. I would say loading it up won't hurt in the event it is being used / can be used.

Yes, the 90D manual specifically states that lens correction is not possible in movie mode.

Vignetting and CA can be corrected in the movie mode (see p. 322 in the Advanced User Guide). Distortion and diffraction correction, and DLO, are not available.

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Alexsfo Senior Member • Posts: 2,308
Re: 90D Video and sharpening

only lens aberration and vignetting are corrected during video (if selected).

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Steve_tEkGuY Regular Member • Posts: 380
Re: 90D Video and sharpening

Dragonrider wrote:

RLight wrote:

You doing clean HDMI output?

Also, be wary of both the impact of picture styles and their sharpening values, and, more importantly, the ability to harness DLO in video...

If, you haven't already, verify the lens you're shooting video with is support in your camera with a DLO profile. If not, load up the Canon camera utility and download it to your 90D. DLO corrects for a variety of lens abberation, including, diffraction which will be a big deal for video shooters that will undoubtedly be using f-stops greater than the DLA of 5.2 of the 90D. DLO to my knowledge does apply to video. I could be wrong though, but that's what I gathered from the marketing material.

Since 4k is either pixel binned or downscaled, the DLA of 5.2 for stills isn't really relevant. Sharpening is relevant and kicking all the way to 7 seems to produce the best result without post sharpening. The camera does use the same picture style for stills as video, so that could be a switching issue for someone shooting JPEGs, but I only shoot RAW, so see no issue with leaving the sharpening turned up for video. I am recording on the camera, not using HDMI out, but the codec seems pretty decent.

I set my video settings on C1 so it does not interfere with my many photo modes.

I do wish the 90D has the same video option as my RP, such as

AF-ON switches between SERVO and ONE SHOT with a single press where with the 90D I need to keep holding down the button other wise it changes back. The RP offers SERVO -AF PAUSE mapped to the AF-ON button which is extremely helpful during video.

Second option is the Manual focus bar display but I believe this is only available with RF lenses hence why 90D does not have it.

Now in the other hand the RP will not allow you to register the Video mode to one of the customs C1-3 options since it has its only mode on the dial.

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