Q2 Monochrome conversion

Started Aug 21, 2019 | Discussions
Khun_K
Khun_K Senior Member • Posts: 1,500
Q2 Monochrome conversion
10

Anastasia Maslova, Bangkok, Thailand. August 17, 2019 - Leica Q2

Leica Q2 is almost of a fault-free camera, focus acquisition instantly and accurately, image stabilization works marvelously down to 1/4-1/2s (based on my own experience) and shoot silent if needed.

The new 47MP sensor in Q2 is capable of producing superior image quality to all digital M cameras, IMHO, except of course the M Monochrom models. However, the higher resolution sensor in Q2 is less prone to aliasing than the older 24MP sensor; therefore, as a result, the DNG file from Q2 can convert to monochrome files of higher clarity than previous cameras with Bayer filter sensor and with advantage of applying color filters in post for tonal contrast control that gets really close to Monochrom Typ 246 which requires no demosaicing but would require color filter for tonal manipulation.  The philosophy and purity in shooting monochrome image may not be replaced but Q2 gets closer or equal to MM246 than any FF Leica at the moment in most situations.  True MM246 monochrom file is of course still different and under careful watch, still superior in tonal transitions but Q2 get very very close.  Besides, files from Q2 is always 99.99% spot-on focus - any discussion of a quality file starts from optimized focus unless "blur" is the intended artistic expression.

Base on this, I do not see Leica will attempt to make an M10-Based Monochrom model because it may not offer enough meaningful improvement over MM246, instead, should focus its resources on re-align the fundaments of M camera concept in the adaption of next higher resolution sensor.

But Leica is Leica, no one can tell it what to do.  But into 2020 with Q2 and SLII already in the market the M cameras will be the one with inferior image quality to Q2 and SLII, the bottom of all FF Leica, it is not M positioned to be.

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Rodrigue Zahr
Rodrigue Zahr Veteran Member • Posts: 5,210
Re: Q2 Monochrome conversion

Stunning model beautiful mood.

your Q2 review adds a lot more to what many of us already know. Also your point on the M future is spot on.

pS: wonderful insta feed.

Khun_K wrote:

Anastasia Maslova, Bangkok, Thailand. August 17, 2019 - Leica Q2

Leica Q2 is almost of a fault-free camera, focus acquisition instantly and accurately, image stabilization works marvelously down to 1/4-1/2s (based on my own experience) and shoot silent if needed.

The new 47MP sensor in Q2 is capable of producing superior image quality to all digital M cameras, IMHO, except of course the M Monochrom models. However, the higher resolution sensor in Q2 is less prone to aliasing than the older 24MP sensor; therefore, as a result, the DNG file from Q2 can convert to monochrome files of higher clarity than previous cameras with Bayer filter sensor and with advantage of applying color filters in post for tonal contrast control that gets really close to Monochrom Typ 246 which requires no demosaicing but would require color filter for tonal manipulation. The philosophy and purity in shooting monochrome image may not be replaced but Q2 gets closer or equal to MM246 than any FF Leica at the moment in most situations. True MM246 monochrom file is of course still different and under careful watch, still superior in tonal transitions but Q2 get very very close. Besides, files from Q2 is always 99.99% spot-on focus - any discussion of a quality file starts from optimized focus unless "blur" is the intended artistic expression.

Base on this, I do not see Leica will attempt to make an M10-Based Monochrom model because it may not offer enough meaningful improvement over MM246, instead, should focus its resources on re-align the fundaments of M camera concept in the adaption of next higher resolution sensor.

But Leica is Leica, no one can tell it what to do. But into 2020 with Q2 and SLII already in the market the M cameras will be the one with inferior image quality to Q2 and SLII, the bottom of all FF Leica, it is not M positioned to be.

 Rodrigue Zahr's gear list:Rodrigue Zahr's gear list
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Bags27 Contributing Member • Posts: 777
Re: Q2 Monochrome conversion

Stunning photo and wise and judicious words.

But for my money, the most "wow" photos I've seen are not with the Q/Q2, but with the M10 (with many of its lenses) and the SL (with just about any of its lenses), and even the CL with the M 35 f/1.4 FLE. I own a Q and love it, but am rarely knocked off my feet by the photos taken by even the most talented photographers, while sometimes casual photos with the M10 and SL can take my breath away.

I have no idea why this is so, since the Q/Q2 shares so much that it important with these cameras. But there it is. Quite obviously, YMMV.

Jared Willson Contributing Member • Posts: 906
Re: Q2 Monochrome conversion

Bags27 wrote:

Stunning photo and wise and judicious words.

But for my money, the most "wow" photos I've seen are not with the Q/Q2, but with the M10 (with many of its lenses) and the SL (with just about any of its lenses), and even the CL with the M 35 f/1.4 FLE. I own a Q and love it, but am rarely knocked off my feet by the photos taken by even the most talented photographers, while sometimes casual photos with the M10 and SL can take my breath away.

I have no idea why this is so, since the Q/Q2 shares so much that it important with these cameras. But there it is. Quite obviously, YMMV.

I won’t tell you you are wrong, but I will tell you not to read too much into it.  At this point cameras from all manufacturers are so good (especially when you are talking about the resolutions required for images presented on the web), that almost all quality variation you see is down to the photographer, not the camera.  How good was the composition?  The lighting?  Did the photographer capture a meaningful moment?  Is the subject interesting?  Were there technical errors made?  What about the care and quality of the post processing?  A good photographer with an iPhone will get a more impactful image then a mediocre photographer with an S007.

The other point is that the Q2 is, at it’s core, a 28mm camera.  That isn’t as flexible as an interchangeable lens camera.  Stay within its capabilities and it can do everything an M 10 can do, but stray outside those boundaries...

 Jared Willson's gear list:Jared Willson's gear list
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Jared Willson Contributing Member • Posts: 906
Re: Q2 Monochrome conversion

I Khun_K wrote:

Anastasia Maslova, Bangkok, Thailand. August 17, 2019 - Leica Q2

Leica Q2 is almost of a fault-free camera, focus acquisition instantly and accurately, image stabilization works marvelously down to 1/4-1/2s (based on my own experience) and shoot silent if needed.

The new 47MP sensor in Q2 is capable of producing superior image quality to all digital M cameras, IMHO, except of course the M Monochrom models. However, the higher resolution sensor in Q2 is less prone to aliasing than the older 24MP sensor; therefore, as a result, the DNG file from Q2 can convert to monochrome files of higher clarity than previous cameras with Bayer filter sensor and with advantage of applying color filters in post for tonal contrast control that gets really close to Monochrom Typ 246 which requires no demosaicing but would require color filter for tonal manipulation. The philosophy and purity in shooting monochrome image may not be replaced but Q2 gets closer or equal to MM246 than any FF Leica at the moment in most situations. True MM246 monochrom file is of course still different and under careful watch, still superior in tonal transitions but Q2 get very very close. Besides, files from Q2 is always 99.99% spot-on focus - any discussion of a quality file starts from optimized focus unless "blur" is the intended artistic expression.

Base on this, I do not see Leica will attempt to make an M10-Based Monochrom model because it may not offer enough meaningful improvement over MM246, instead, should focus its resources on re-align the fundaments of M camera concept in the adaption of next higher resolution sensor.

But Leica is Leica, no one can tell it what to do. But into 2020 with Q2 and SLII already in the market the M cameras will be the one with inferior image quality to Q2 and SLII, the bottom of all FF Leica, it is not M positioned to be.

I agree that Leica will have some interesting decisions to make with the successor to the M 10.  I assume they will try to standardize on the sensor in the Q2 for all their full frame cameras.  But can a rangefinder be precise enough in use for photographers to realize any resolution gains over the current M10?  Specifically, shooting fast lenses wide open (which seems to be a particular pleasure for M photographers)?  I’m not at all sure.  I know I couldn’t do it with my 50 year old eyes.  I couldn’t consistently nail focus with even the M10 at 24 megapixels when shooting fast lenses wide open.  I was pretty good with a 35mm or even a 50mm if I was careful, but getting it right with a 75mm or 90mm, let alone the insanity that is the 135mm, really required focus peeking.  Will the M eventually come with an EVF?  Or an AF adapter pre-installed?  I don’t think the baseline of a mechanical rangefinder is long enough for consistent results at 47 megapixels and beyond.  Tough decisions for sure.  Heck, I even wonder about the future of the S platform.  Is the image quality improvement in the S lenses with a new sixty some megapixel chip enough that people will actually spend 30,000 USD?  Not sure.  I own a medium format camera and love it, but I’m not sure I’d pay the monetary and weight penalty of the S3 for the kind of improvements that are likely vs. an SL 2.  Of course, that’s just conjecture since neither the SL 2 or the S3 are out yet.

 Jared Willson's gear list:Jared Willson's gear list
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Khun_K
OP Khun_K Senior Member • Posts: 1,500
Re: Q2 Monochrome conversion

Jared Willson wrote:

Bags27 wrote:

Stunning photo and wise and judicious words.

But for my money, the most "wow" photos I've seen are not with the Q/Q2, but with the M10 (with many of its lenses) and the SL (with just about any of its lenses), and even the CL with the M 35 f/1.4 FLE. I own a Q and love it, but am rarely knocked off my feet by the photos taken by even the most talented photographers, while sometimes casual photos with the M10 and SL can take my breath away.

I have no idea why this is so, since the Q/Q2 shares so much that it important with these cameras. But there it is. Quite obviously, YMMV.

I won’t tell you you are wrong, but I will tell you not to read too much into it. At this point cameras from all manufacturers are so good (especially when you are talking about the resolutions required for images presented on the web), that almost all quality variation you see is down to the photographer, not the camera. How good was the composition? The lighting? Did the photographer capture a meaningful moment? Is the subject interesting? Were there technical errors made? What about the care and quality of the post processing? A good photographer with an iPhone will get a more impactful image then a mediocre photographer with an S007.

The other point is that the Q2 is, at it’s core, a 28mm camera. That isn’t as flexible as an interchangeable lens camera. Stay within its capabilities and it can do everything an M 10 can do, but stray outside those boundaries...

All thru except the primary reason for photography, for me at least, is not to satisfy the web presentation.  The driving force behind all manufacturers for cameras, and for that matter all human-made requirements, are not focused on what it can do but push beyond confined imagination.

A true master could shoot with an iPhone to achieve an artwork superior to most amateurs using any camera but when the masters could have a choice to create their craft they will choose what's best for them of the time, most likely not an iPhone.  Best for one photographer is not necessarily best for others, what one could do does not equal to what he must do.

A fixed lens camera such as Leica Q2 is limited to the fixed lens, some see that as a limitation and some see that as its strength, no one is wrong.

 Khun_K's gear list:Khun_K's gear list
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Khun_K
OP Khun_K Senior Member • Posts: 1,500
Re: Q2 Monochrome conversion

Jared Willson wrote:

I Khun_K wrote:

Anastasia Maslova, Bangkok, Thailand. August 17, 2019 - Leica Q2

Leica Q2 is almost of a fault-free camera, focus acquisition instantly and accurately, image stabilization works marvelously down to 1/4-1/2s (based on my own experience) and shoot silent if needed.

The new 47MP sensor in Q2 is capable of producing superior image quality to all digital M cameras, IMHO, except of course the M Monochrom models. However, the higher resolution sensor in Q2 is less prone to aliasing than the older 24MP sensor; therefore, as a result, the DNG file from Q2 can convert to monochrome files of higher clarity than previous cameras with Bayer filter sensor and with advantage of applying color filters in post for tonal contrast control that gets really close to Monochrom Typ 246 which requires no demosaicing but would require color filter for tonal manipulation. The philosophy and purity in shooting monochrome image may not be replaced but Q2 gets closer or equal to MM246 than any FF Leica at the moment in most situations. True MM246 monochrom file is of course still different and under careful watch, still superior in tonal transitions but Q2 get very very close. Besides, files from Q2 is always 99.99% spot-on focus - any discussion of a quality file starts from optimized focus unless "blur" is the intended artistic expression.

Base on this, I do not see Leica will attempt to make an M10-Based Monochrom model because it may not offer enough meaningful improvement over MM246, instead, should focus its resources on re-align the fundaments of M camera concept in the adaption of next higher resolution sensor.

But Leica is Leica, no one can tell it what to do. But into 2020 with Q2 and SLII already in the market the M cameras will be the one with inferior image quality to Q2 and SLII, the bottom of all FF Leica, it is not M positioned to be.

I agree that Leica will have some interesting decisions to make with the successor to the M 10. I assume they will try to standardize on the sensor in the Q2 for all their full frame cameras. But can a rangefinder be precise enough in use for photographers to realize any resolution gains over the current M10? Specifically, shooting fast lenses wide open (which seems to be a particular pleasure for M photographers)? I’m not at all sure. I know I couldn’t do it with my 50 year old eyes. I couldn’t consistently nail focus with even the M10 at 24 megapixels when shooting fast lenses wide open. I was pretty good with a 35mm or even a 50mm if I was careful, but getting it right with a 75mm or 90mm, let alone the insanity that is the 135mm, really required focus peeking. Will the M eventually come with an EVF? Or an AF adapter pre-installed? I don’t think the baseline of a mechanical rangefinder is long enough for consistent results at 47 megapixels and beyond. Tough decisions for sure. Heck, I even wonder about the future of the S platform. Is the image quality improvement in the S lenses with a new sixty some megapixel chip enough that people will actually spend 30,000 USD? Not sure. I own a medium format camera and love it, but I’m not sure I’d pay the monetary and weight penalty of the S3 for the kind of improvements that are likely vs. an SL 2. Of course, that’s just conjecture since neither the SL 2 or the S3 are out yet.

Mechanical rangefinder invented out of the necessity of its time and it shows its age.  The mechanical rangefinder has limited focusing range of 70cm and application and needs calibration after a certain time that the high-resolution files inspected at high magnification will expose its misses - not the fault of the photographer, it is just a limitation of mechanism, regardless how well it is made.  This is like a precision Swiss watch cannot match the accuracy of a relative cheap Apple Watch although there are valid arguments of the value of the classic mechanism, the fun of it, and it is not possible to measure the fun over practicability.  But a print can be measured and judged easier, saved particular artistic renderings.

Leica as a company, IMHO, needs to see what the future will be if they wanted to continue to thrive.  I do believe Leica is a company, which many people love, with the capability to make a new generation of the camera better than the last, for example, Q2 over the original Q.  If Leica cannot make better camera over older ones then they are in trouble.  There are people prefer the original Q over Q2 for whatever reason, they have their reason.  But Leica will eventually stop selling the older cameras because they cannot make a profit and difficult to manage inventory and service, just like all business.

But all these do not make older cameras useless, or even obsolete. I have seen wonderful shots from M8, or all kinds of device capable of making a picture, including smartphones.

 Khun_K's gear list:Khun_K's gear list
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Sjak
Sjak Senior Member • Posts: 5,586
Re: Q2 Monochrome conversion
1

It is obvious that (approx) 1930ies technology, such as the rangefinder or the flappy mirror of SLR's, has been overtaken if we look purely at specs. However, there is a certain pleasure in using these systems, that digital counterparts do not provide (to me) In particular (D)SLRs I use mainly for nostalgic reasons (and because I usually prefer OVFs)

Besides, focus magnification/peeking etc also costs time, and EVF's, although improved through the years, can get quite noisy at times. Depending on shooting conditions, this can make the difference between the right moment, and just too late.

Regardless, you presented a fantastic image here, well done!

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Khun_K
OP Khun_K Senior Member • Posts: 1,500
Re: Q2 Monochrome conversion

Sjak wrote:

It is obvious that (approx) 1930ies technology, such as the rangefinder or the flappy mirror of SLR's, has been overtaken if we look purely at specs. However, there is a certain pleasure in using these systems, that digital counterparts do not provide (to me) In particular (D)SLRs I use mainly for nostalgic reasons (and because I usually prefer OVFs)

Besides, focus magnification/peeking etc also costs time, and EVF's, although improved through the years, can get quite noisy at times. Depending on shooting conditions, this can make the difference between the right moment, and just too late.

Regardless, you presented a fantastic image here, well done!

Thanks, and yes, fun/pleasure or art cannot be measured or quantified.

 Khun_K's gear list:Khun_K's gear list
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Bags27 Contributing Member • Posts: 777
Re: Q2 Monochrome conversion

Jared Willson wrote:

Bags27 wrote:

Stunning photo and wise and judicious words.

But for my money, the most "wow" photos I've seen are not with the Q/Q2, but with the M10 (with many of its lenses) and the SL (with just about any of its lenses), and even the CL with the M 35 f/1.4 FLE. I own a Q and love it, but am rarely knocked off my feet by the photos taken by even the most talented photographers, while sometimes casual photos with the M10 and SL can take my breath away.

I have no idea why this is so, since the Q/Q2 shares so much that it important with these cameras. But there it is. Quite obviously, YMMV.

I won’t tell you you are wrong, but I will tell you not to read too much into it. At this point cameras from all manufacturers are so good (especially when you are talking about the resolutions required for images presented on the web), that almost all quality variation you see is down to the photographer, not the camera. How good was the composition? The lighting? Did the photographer capture a meaningful moment? Is the subject interesting? Were there technical errors made? What about the care and quality of the post processing? A good photographer with an iPhone will get a more impactful image then a mediocre photographer with an S007.

The other point is that the Q2 is, at it’s core, a 28mm camera. That isn’t as flexible as an interchangeable lens camera. Stay within its capabilities and it can do everything an M 10 can do, but stray outside those boundaries...

This is of course to some extent an interesting side discussion, as even some wedding photographers are using the iphone now.  I appreciate the tone in how you explained your point, though I did try to suggest that I was puzzled by my findings since I admit to the parity among cameras. And yet, I've seen thousands of photos from the Q/Q2, but haven't come close to the emotional reaction I've had from the other cameras. Just random? perhaps, I don't know.

But I see you've got a Hassy. And certainly, as fantastic as the SL is, with its completely uncompromisingly sharp and contrasty (and wildly expensive and heavy) lenses, I give an extra "wow" when I see some photos from the Hassy.

Verto Regular Member • Posts: 338
Re: Q2 Monochrome conversion

Great image, but I disagree with you 100% on the Q2 image quality. The M10 has better image quality than the Q2 at every metric except resolution. I had the Q2 and sold it for that very reason. I was hoping Leica would use the M10 sensor in the Q2 but they went a different direction.

Khun_K wrote:

Anastasia Maslova, Bangkok, Thailand. August 17, 2019 - Leica Q2

Leica Q2 is almost of a fault-free camera, focus acquisition instantly and accurately, image stabilization works marvelously down to 1/4-1/2s (based on my own experience) and shoot silent if needed.

The new 47MP sensor in Q2 is capable of producing superior image quality to all digital M cameras, IMHO, except of course the M Monochrom models. However, the higher resolution sensor in Q2 is less prone to aliasing than the older 24MP sensor; therefore, as a result, the DNG file from Q2 can convert to monochrome files of higher clarity than previous cameras with Bayer filter sensor and with advantage of applying color filters in post for tonal contrast control that gets really close to Monochrom Typ 246 which requires no demosaicing but would require color filter for tonal manipulation. The philosophy and purity in shooting monochrome image may not be replaced but Q2 gets closer or equal to MM246 than any FF Leica at the moment in most situations. True MM246 monochrom file is of course still different and under careful watch, still superior in tonal transitions but Q2 get very very close. Besides, files from Q2 is always 99.99% spot-on focus - any discussion of a quality file starts from optimized focus unless "blur" is the intended artistic expression.

Base on this, I do not see Leica will attempt to make an M10-Based Monochrom model because it may not offer enough meaningful improvement over MM246, instead, should focus its resources on re-align the fundaments of M camera concept in the adaption of next higher resolution sensor.

But Leica is Leica, no one can tell it what to do. But into 2020 with Q2 and SLII already in the market the M cameras will be the one with inferior image quality to Q2 and SLII, the bottom of all FF Leica, it is not M positioned to be.

Khun_K
OP Khun_K Senior Member • Posts: 1,500
Re: Q2 Monochrome conversion
1

Verto wrote:

Great image, but I disagree with you 100% on the Q2 image quality. The M10 has better image quality than the Q2 at every metric except resolution. I had the Q2 and sold it for that very reason. I was hoping Leica would use the M10 sensor in the Q2 but they went a different direction.

Khun_K wrote:

Anastasia Maslova, Bangkok, Thailand. August 17, 2019 - Leica Q2

Leica Q2 is almost of a fault-free camera, focus acquisition instantly and accurately, image stabilization works marvelously down to 1/4-1/2s (based on my own experience) and shoot silent if needed.

The new 47MP sensor in Q2 is capable of producing superior image quality to all digital M cameras, IMHO, except of course the M Monochrom models. However, the higher resolution sensor in Q2 is less prone to aliasing than the older 24MP sensor; therefore, as a result, the DNG file from Q2 can convert to monochrome files of higher clarity than previous cameras with Bayer filter sensor and with advantage of applying color filters in post for tonal contrast control that gets really close to Monochrom Typ 246 which requires no demosaicing but would require color filter for tonal manipulation. The philosophy and purity in shooting monochrome image may not be replaced but Q2 gets closer or equal to MM246 than any FF Leica at the moment in most situations. True MM246 monochrom file is of course still different and under careful watch, still superior in tonal transitions but Q2 get very very close. Besides, files from Q2 is always 99.99% spot-on focus - any discussion of a quality file starts from optimized focus unless "blur" is the intended artistic expression.

Base on this, I do not see Leica will attempt to make an M10-Based Monochrom model because it may not offer enough meaningful improvement over MM246, instead, should focus its resources on re-align the fundaments of M camera concept in the adaption of next higher resolution sensor.

But Leica is Leica, no one can tell it what to do. But into 2020 with Q2 and SLII already in the market the M cameras will be the one with inferior image quality to Q2 and SLII, the bottom of all FF Leica, it is not M positioned to be.

I state what I evaluate from my own experience that has nothing to do with wheather people agree or disagree.   I have M10/M10-D and shoot a lot of images with them and IMHO Q2 is not behind them, in fact visibly superior.  Q2 is the latest FF Leica with the latest sensor and it supposed to deliver better image quality for what Q2 is (focus accuracy, speed and higher resolution) and if it is not, Leica is in a bigger problem.

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deednets Forum Pro • Posts: 10,987
Re: Q2 Monochrome conversion

Khun_K wrote:

Anastasia Maslova, Bangkok, Thailand. August 17, 2019 - Leica Q2

A fabulous shot!

Brilliant!

Wanna shed some light on who Anastasia Maslova is? I have regularly spent time in Bangkok over the last 35+ years so would be interested!

Deed

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lnsmr New Member • Posts: 13
Re: Q2 Monochrome conversion

Great picture! Did you take BW straight from the camera or converted it from color later on? Any tips on BW conversion?

An issue with monochrome is having to pick a color filter before the shot.  Used to carry yellow and green filter for shooting BW films, but found it trouble some.

Downsampling from 47MP color during BW conversion with channel mixers offer a lot more flexibility than monochrome sensor.  Big part of BW fun is tweaking picture post.  I suppose my opinion is more in line with Adams than HCB.

On the other hand, one can argue 246 offers more "true resolution" and and DR, especially at high ISO.  The noise and DR of Q2 at high ISO are pretty bad, but clean up very well after down sampling to 24MP, which is somewhat more comparable to 246 IQ.

Khun_K
OP Khun_K Senior Member • Posts: 1,500
Re: Q2 Monochrome conversion

lnsmr wrote:

Great picture! Did you take BW straight from the camera or converted it from color later on? Any tips on BW conversion?

An issue with monochrome is having to pick a color filter before the shot. Used to carry yellow and green filter for shooting BW films, but found it trouble some.

Downsampling from 47MP color during BW conversion with channel mixers offer a lot more flexibility than monochrome sensor. Big part of BW fun is tweaking picture post. I suppose my opinion is more in line with Adams than HCB.

On the other hand, one can argue 246 offers more "true resolution" and and DR, especially at high ISO. The noise and DR of Q2 at high ISO are pretty bad, but clean up very well after down sampling to 24MP, which is somewhat more comparable to 246 IQ.

It was DNG, converted to BW with Capture One Pro.  I also shoot with MM246 but never did direct comparison, however, because MM246 DNG requires no demosaicing process so even it is 24MP the final output is very clean and still slightly cleaner than BW converted files from Q2 - but Q2 gets as close as any current Leica FF cameras.

In this case, because Q2 takes color DNG and can apply color when converting to monochrome image so it is a very good all around camera to consider, even for BW enthusiasts, IMHO, although many MM or MM246 users may disagree, I don't speak for them, I speak for myself.

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