Do Fujinon XF F1.2 and F1.4 prime lenses need a 'revamp'?

Started 3 months ago | Polls
John Gellings Veteran Member • Posts: 5,458
Re: Do Fujinon XF F1.2 and F1.4 prime lenses need a 'revamp'?
1

dual12 wrote:

Virtually no one wants Sigma. I once made the mistake of buying a premium Sigma zoom for my Nikon. The lens was good, not great. I could barely give that lens away for pennies on the dollar when I left Nikon...and it took nearly a year to sell it. Never, ever, ever again

I would imagine this was many years ago? Some Sigma lenses are very desirable these days ...

 John Gellings's gear list:John Gellings's gear list
Ricoh GR III Fujifilm X-Pro2 Fujifilm X-E3 Fujifilm X-H1 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R +4 more
John Gellings Veteran Member • Posts: 5,458
Re: Do Fujinon XF F1.2 and F1.4 prime lenses need a 'revamp'?
  1. lélé wrote:

John Gellings wrote:

lélé wrote:

John Gellings wrote:

lélé wrote:

Even if I love my Fujinon primes lenses, I think some of them scream for a 'revamp'. In particular the XF 56mmF1.2 R whose optical quality is good but not great (bokeh is not very nice at the widest apertures) and it's AF motorization not suited for continuous AF, or the XF35mmF1.4 R which has a very nice rendering full open but may be better corrected and suffers from the same outdated AF motorization.

It is not the lens' fault... concentrate on photography, not lenses.

1. This is a gear sub-forum.

2. This is not the photographer's fault if the out-of-focus discs of the Fujinon XF 56mmF1.2 R looks like this:

(Source: OpticalLimits)

That's rather good, but the outlining effect at 'larges' apertures can be distracting IMO. Especially with such la ens for which a silky smooth bokeh might be a major buying point.

Some 85mm f/1.8 full frame lenses perform better in this regard, for similar price and weight. Do not be mistaken, I do think that it is quite an achievement that Fujifilm was able to design and produce a 'true' 85mm f/1.8 equivalent for an APS-C sensor. Kudos to them for that!

Of course, as a photographer:

  • The bokeh won't make a good (or bad) image.
  • I can stop down a bit to reduce the outlining effect.
  • I can be more picky about the background and avoid bright highlights.
  • I can just live with that (and that's OK ).
  • I could buy the APD version, but apparently (I do have the non-APD version so I can only rely on reviews and user opinions here) it inherits some of the non-APD outlining effects...cost more and has specific drawbacks.

That said, I would consider an improvement to have more even out-of-focus discs.

3. Have you ever compared the continuous autofocus performances of the Fujinon XF 56mmF1.2 R to a more 'modern' lens? (Including the ones from Fujifilm.) It's not exactly brillant...

Who is your audience? Who do you thInk is looking at minute details in the bokeh and not the subject of the photo? I would think only other pixel peepers would care. People do not go to museums and galleries to look at bokeh.

I agree on that point.

The most important thing will always be the photograph (and the subject), not the technical aspects.

But that does not mean these technical aspects are insignificant. Should it be the case, we would all be shooting with or smartphone or cheap lenses.

There is probably a good 'in-between', that depends on each photographers budget and requirements.

what are you photographing with this specialized lens that you require fast tracking? Perhaps there is a better alternative? Have you ever tried the Canon 85mm 1.2? Fast lenses like this have a lot of glass to move.

I think the comparison with the Canon EF 85mm f/1.2 L is not appropriate. The Fujinon XF 56mmF1.2 R is not a 85mm f/1.2 full frame equivalent; it's a 85mm f/1.8 full frame equivalent.

That is true, but is it a more complicated lens to make than the 1.8 models?

The iris diameter of the Fujinon is about the same as a 85mm f/1.8. It has much less glass to move than the Canon!

What kind of subjects?
The first ones would be my 5 an 6 years old children. I like 'posed portrait', but I also like to capture portraits when they are playing, running, laughing, moving their heads, etc. The combination of continuous autofocus and eye AF is phenomenal for that!
With the X-T3 and the XF 56mmF1.2 R I lost a lot of opportunities. I don't see myself buying the XF 50mmF2 WR just for that purpose (and I would probably miss a lot the extra aperture).
With the Sony A7III and the FE 85mm f/1.8 (which has to move the same amount of glass ), it works just well. Problem is that I like the Fujifilm ergonomics much better. And since I do not do photographs as professional, but for my own pleasure, this is something that I value a lot

i understand and thank you for the info.

A refreshed XF 56mF1.2 R with LM motors (or some other snappier AF motors) would end the dilemma.

 John Gellings's gear list:John Gellings's gear list
Ricoh GR III Fujifilm X-Pro2 Fujifilm X-E3 Fujifilm X-H1 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R +4 more
Victoria Marshall Regular Member • Posts: 486
Re: Do Fujinon XF F1.2 and F1.4 prime lenses need a 'revamp'?

Nas from the Valley wrote:

Victoria Marshall wrote:

lélé wrote:

Hello!

Fujifilm provided us with 'fast' prime lenses in the early life of the Fujifilm X system:

  • Fujinon XF 16mmF1.4 R WR
  • Fujinon XF 23mmF1.4 R
  • Fujinon XF 35mmF1.4 R
  • Fujinon XF 56mmF1.2 R (APD)

Lenses with sometimes quite unique specifications.

Since, Fujifilm has made gigantic progress regarding his bodies, in particular regarding autofocus, continuous autofocus, video features (who would have guessed Fujifilm would provide a video powerhouse like the X-T3 just a few years ago?).

Fujifilm also has to fight against a strong competition, with Sony, Panasonic, Canon and Nikon which all going for FF mirrorless.

Even if I love my Fujinon primes lenses, I think some of them scream for a 'revamp'. In particular the XF 56mmF1.2 R whose optical quality is good but not great (bokeh is not very nice at the widest apertures) and it's AF motorization not suited for continuous AF, or the XF35mmF1.4 R which has a very nice rendering full open but may be better corrected and suffers from the same outdated AF motorization.

Also, with video comes new requirements like the absence of focus breathing and more discret motor noise.

What do you think?

Do you think Fujifilm needs to refresh the XF F1.2 and F1.4 lenses?

Thanks for your opinion.

Fred

No. I'm sorry, but if you bought the 56 1.2 for continuous, or even 'competitive' autofocus speeds, then you bought the wrong lens. It's a niche lens designed for portraiture.

That's why I bought the 50 f2. Much more versatile.

My 16 f1.4 is still as awesome to me as the day I bought it. It's better wide open than any Nikkor I've owned in the past, and autofocus is plenty zippy for me.

So if it is portrait lens it should be slow??? Are you serious lol

Of course all these 1.4 lenses need just a faster motor inside that's it and I'm sure it is easy for Fuji to make them but I guess they are focused more on bodies now.

For example E mount (APS-C) Sigmas are way faster. Fuji needs to stay competitive!

It's not *slow,* it's just not as fast as other lenses designed for different things.

 Victoria Marshall's gear list:Victoria Marshall's gear list
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dual12 Contributing Member • Posts: 993
Re: Do Fujinon XF F1.2 and F1.4 prime lenses need a 'revamp'?

Only 4-5 years ago. The lens was 5-6 years old in like new condition. It was the 15-30mm zoom. Nikon shooters had no interest in it whatsoever. In contrast, most of the Nikon lenses sold in less than a week for more than I paid for them.

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OP lélé Regular Member • Posts: 462
Re: Do Fujinon XF F1.2 and F1.4 prime lenses need a 'revamp'?
1

Victoria Marshall wrote:

Nas from the Valley wrote:

Victoria Marshall wrote:

lélé wrote:

Hello!

Fujifilm provided us with 'fast' prime lenses in the early life of the Fujifilm X system:

  • Fujinon XF 16mmF1.4 R WR
  • Fujinon XF 23mmF1.4 R
  • Fujinon XF 35mmF1.4 R
  • Fujinon XF 56mmF1.2 R (APD)

Lenses with sometimes quite unique specifications.

Since, Fujifilm has made gigantic progress regarding his bodies, in particular regarding autofocus, continuous autofocus, video features (who would have guessed Fujifilm would provide a video powerhouse like the X-T3 just a few years ago?).

Fujifilm also has to fight against a strong competition, with Sony, Panasonic, Canon and Nikon which all going for FF mirrorless.

Even if I love my Fujinon primes lenses, I think some of them scream for a 'revamp'. In particular the XF 56mmF1.2 R whose optical quality is good but not great (bokeh is not very nice at the widest apertures) and it's AF motorization not suited for continuous AF, or the XF35mmF1.4 R which has a very nice rendering full open but may be better corrected and suffers from the same outdated AF motorization.

Also, with video comes new requirements like the absence of focus breathing and more discret motor noise.

What do you think?

Do you think Fujifilm needs to refresh the XF F1.2 and F1.4 lenses?

Thanks for your opinion.

Fred

No. I'm sorry, but if you bought the 56 1.2 for continuous, or even 'competitive' autofocus speeds, then you bought the wrong lens. It's a niche lens designed for portraiture.

That's why I bought the 50 f2. Much more versatile.

My 16 f1.4 is still as awesome to me as the day I bought it. It's better wide open than any Nikkor I've owned in the past, and autofocus is plenty zippy for me.

So if it is portrait lens it should be slow??? Are you serious lol

Of course all these 1.4 lenses need just a faster motor inside that's it and I'm sure it is easy for Fuji to make them but I guess they are focused more on bodies now.

For example E mount (APS-C) Sigmas are way faster. Fuji needs to stay competitive!

It's not *slow,* it's just not as fast as other lenses designed for different things.

I would say 'designed in a different time'.

This is just assumption, but:

When the Fujinon XF 56mmF1.2 R was designed, I'm pretty sure nobody was imagining that just a few years later it would be paired to a body able to identify and track a human eye and combine that ability with fast and reliable continuous autofocus. Even within Fujifilm's design teams.

They probably designed a focusing mechanism with precision in mind, using a 'classical' gear drive train.

It would interesting to find Fujifilm's interview to confirm/discard that.

Nowadays, linear motors are pretty common and, with appropriate software, precise. Plus we've got fast and reliable continuous AF and eye detection. I think design choices could be different. (And they are among competitors.)

 lélé's gear list:lélé's gear list
Nikon D300 Sony a7 III Fujifilm X-T3 Canon TS-E 17mm f/4L Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8G ED-IF +11 more
OP lélé Regular Member • Posts: 462
Re: Do Fujinon XF F1.2 and F1.4 prime lenses need a 'revamp'?

vegetaleb wrote:

My 1 year old xf 16 f1.4 is a delicious lens, AF is fast enough, I never had to complain about it. If it was a bit lighter and smaller I wouldn't be against but I doubt Fuji will do it soon as the f2.8 is pretty new.

The one lens that need revamp is the xf 18mm f2, they should forget about pancake size and make the mk2 much better in terms of sharpness corner to corner.

I think 18mm is the sweet spot for me, 23mm is too narrow and 16mm too wide for me lol

I never tried the XF 18mmF2 R...but yeah, we may add it to the list!

 lélé's gear list:lélé's gear list
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OP lélé Regular Member • Posts: 462
Re: Do Fujinon XF F1.2 and F1.4 prime lenses need a 'revamp'?

John Gellings wrote:

  1. lélé wrote:

John Gellings wrote:

lélé wrote:

John Gellings wrote:

lélé wrote:

Even if I love my Fujinon primes lenses, I think some of them scream for a 'revamp'. In particular the XF 56mmF1.2 R whose optical quality is good but not great (bokeh is not very nice at the widest apertures) and it's AF motorization not suited for continuous AF, or the XF35mmF1.4 R which has a very nice rendering full open but may be better corrected and suffers from the same outdated AF motorization.

It is not the lens' fault... concentrate on photography, not lenses.

1. This is a gear sub-forum.

2. This is not the photographer's fault if the out-of-focus discs of the Fujinon XF 56mmF1.2 R looks like this:

(Source: OpticalLimits)

That's rather good, but the outlining effect at 'larges' apertures can be distracting IMO. Especially with such la ens for which a silky smooth bokeh might be a major buying point.

Some 85mm f/1.8 full frame lenses perform better in this regard, for similar price and weight. Do not be mistaken, I do think that it is quite an achievement that Fujifilm was able to design and produce a 'true' 85mm f/1.8 equivalent for an APS-C sensor. Kudos to them for that!

Of course, as a photographer:

  • The bokeh won't make a good (or bad) image.
  • I can stop down a bit to reduce the outlining effect.
  • I can be more picky about the background and avoid bright highlights.
  • I can just live with that (and that's OK ).
  • I could buy the APD version, but apparently (I do have the non-APD version so I can only rely on reviews and user opinions here) it inherits some of the non-APD outlining effects...cost more and has specific drawbacks.

That said, I would consider an improvement to have more even out-of-focus discs.

3. Have you ever compared the continuous autofocus performances of the Fujinon XF 56mmF1.2 R to a more 'modern' lens? (Including the ones from Fujifilm.) It's not exactly brillant...

Who is your audience? Who do you thInk is looking at minute details in the bokeh and not the subject of the photo? I would think only other pixel peepers would care. People do not go to museums and galleries to look at bokeh.

I agree on that point.

The most important thing will always be the photograph (and the subject), not the technical aspects.

But that does not mean these technical aspects are insignificant. Should it be the case, we would all be shooting with or smartphone or cheap lenses.

There is probably a good 'in-between', that depends on each photographers budget and requirements.

what are you photographing with this specialized lens that you require fast tracking? Perhaps there is a better alternative? Have you ever tried the Canon 85mm 1.2? Fast lenses like this have a lot of glass to move.

I think the comparison with the Canon EF 85mm f/1.2 L is not appropriate. The Fujinon XF 56mmF1.2 R is not a 85mm f/1.2 full frame equivalent; it's a 85mm f/1.8 full frame equivalent.

That is true, but is it a more complicated lens to make than the 1.8 models?

I'm no lens designer, so I don't know what is more difficult. (One should deal with higher resolution (for similar output size) and relative aperture, the other with larger area to cover...)

In any case, I guess that XF 56mmF1.2 R was not an easy lens to design and do consider it as a great achievement. We would probably have seen many other lenses like it before if it was so easy...

Nevertheless, as a photographer I am also 'result oriented'. It is very interesting to discuss and try to understand the design choices (I like that a lot), but in the end I would go for whatever fulfill my requirement the best. Should it be a 85mm f/1.8 and a FF sensor or a 56mm f/1.2 on an APS-C sensor, that's not the major criterion for me.

The iris diameter of the Fujinon is about the same as a 85mm f/1.8. It has much less glass to move than the Canon!

What kind of subjects?
The first ones would be my 5 an 6 years old children. I like 'posed portrait', but I also like to capture portraits when they are playing, running, laughing, moving their heads, etc. The combination of continuous autofocus and eye AF is phenomenal for that!
With the X-T3 and the XF 56mmF1.2 R I lost a lot of opportunities. I don't see myself buying the XF 50mmF2 WR just for that purpose (and I would probably miss a lot the extra aperture).
With the Sony A7III and the FE 85mm f/1.8 (which has to move the same amount of glass ), it works just well. Problem is that I like the Fujifilm ergonomics much better. And since I do not do photographs as professional, but for my own pleasure, this is something that I value a lot

i understand and thank you for the info.

Thanks!

A refreshed XF 56mF1.2 R with LM motors (or some other snappier AF motors) would end the dilemma.

 lélé's gear list:lélé's gear list
Nikon D300 Sony a7 III Fujifilm X-T3 Canon TS-E 17mm f/4L Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8G ED-IF +11 more
John Gellings Veteran Member • Posts: 5,458
Re: Do Fujinon XF F1.2 and F1.4 prime lenses need a 'revamp'?
  1. lélé wrote:

John Gellings wrote:

Nas from the Valley wrote:

Victoria Marshall wrote:

lélé wrote:

Hello!

Fujifilm provided us with 'fast' prime lenses in the early life of the Fujifilm X system:

  • Fujinon XF 16mmF1.4 R WR
  • Fujinon XF 23mmF1.4 R
  • Fujinon XF 35mmF1.4 R
  • Fujinon XF 56mmF1.2 R (APD)

Lenses with sometimes quite unique specifications.

Since, Fujifilm has made gigantic progress regarding his bodies, in particular regarding autofocus, continuous autofocus, video features (who would have guessed Fujifilm would provide a video powerhouse like the X-T3 just a few years ago?).

Fujifilm also has to fight against a strong competition, with Sony, Panasonic, Canon and Nikon which all going for FF mirrorless.

Even if I love my Fujinon primes lenses, I think some of them scream for a 'revamp'. In particular the XF 56mmF1.2 R whose optical quality is good but not great (bokeh is not very nice at the widest apertures) and it's AF motorization not suited for continuous AF, or the XF35mmF1.4 R which has a very nice rendering full open but may be better corrected and suffers from the same outdated AF motorization.

Also, with video comes new requirements like the absence of focus breathing and more discret motor noise.

What do you think?

Do you think Fujifilm needs to refresh the XF F1.2 and F1.4 lenses?

Thanks for your opinion.

Fred

No. I'm sorry, but if you bought the 56 1.2 for continuous, or even 'competitive' autofocus speeds, then you bought the wrong lens. It's a niche lens designed for portraiture.

That's why I bought the 50 f2. Much more versatile.

My 16 f1.4 is still as awesome to me as the day I bought it. It's better wide open than any Nikkor I've owned in the past, and autofocus is plenty zippy for me.

So if it is portrait lens it should be slow??? Are you serious lol

Of course all these 1.4 lenses need just a faster motor inside that's it and I'm sure it is easy for Fuji to make them but I guess they are focused more on bodies now.

For example E mount (APS-C) Sigmas are way faster. Fuji needs to stay competitive!

Does Fuji compete with Sigma?

I’m not aware of any sigma lenses made for Fuji.

Of course they do compete!

No photographer is married to a system.

(Should he/she be, he/she can divorce...but like in a real divorce the ex-spouse can rip him/her off! lol)

Sure, in that regard ok. But as a Fuji user, I’m not looking at Sigma lenses... that’s the other side of the equation.  I’m not switching to a worse body because of one lens.  That said, I do like the sigma apsc 1.4 lenses but not enough to use a Sony apsc body.

 John Gellings's gear list:John Gellings's gear list
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GKN Regular Member • Posts: 429
Re: Do Fujinon XF F1.2 and F1.4 prime lenses need a 'revamp'?

lélé wrote:

Hello!

Fujifilm provided us with 'fast' prime lenses in the early life of the Fujifilm X system:

  • Fujinon XF 16mmF1.4 R WR
  • Fujinon XF 23mmF1.4 R
  • Fujinon XF 35mmF1.4 R
  • Fujinon XF 56mmF1.2 R (APD)

Lenses with sometimes quite unique specifications.

Since, Fujifilm has made gigantic progress regarding his bodies, in particular regarding autofocus, continuous autofocus, video features (who would have guessed Fujifilm would provide a video powerhouse like the X-T3 just a few years ago?).

Fujifilm also has to fight against a strong competition, with Sony, Panasonic, Canon and Nikon which all going for FF mirrorless.

Even if I love my Fujinon primes lenses, I think some of them scream for a 'revamp'. In particular the XF 56mmF1.2 R whose optical quality is good but not great (bokeh is not very nice at the widest apertures) and it's AF motorization not suited for continuous AF, or the XF35mmF1.4 R which has a very nice rendering full open but may be better corrected and suffers from the same outdated AF motorization.

Also, with video comes new requirements like the absence of focus breathing and more discret motor noise.

What do you think?

Do you think Fujifilm needs to refresh the XF F1.2 and F1.4 lenses?

Thanks for your opinion.

Fred

16 is great, the others (along with the 60mm) could be upgraded to a MK2 with weather sealing and new AF. The 18mm could have improvements to optics and weather sealing. That said, all these lenses are still very good, but I agree at some point they will get a refresh. Optically Fuji primes are very good. I don’t think they’d add OIS, as I suspect we’ll see IBIS rolled out to more cameras

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vegetaleb
vegetaleb Senior Member • Posts: 1,366
Re: Do Fujinon XF F1.2 and F1.4 prime lenses need a 'revamp'?

GKN wrote:

lélé wrote:

Hello!

Fujifilm provided us with 'fast' prime lenses in the early life of the Fujifilm X system:

  • Fujinon XF 16mmF1.4 R WR
  • Fujinon XF 23mmF1.4 R
  • Fujinon XF 35mmF1.4 R
  • Fujinon XF 56mmF1.2 R (APD)

Lenses with sometimes quite unique specifications.

Since, Fujifilm has made gigantic progress regarding his bodies, in particular regarding autofocus, continuous autofocus, video features (who would have guessed Fujifilm would provide a video powerhouse like the X-T3 just a few years ago?).

Fujifilm also has to fight against a strong competition, with Sony, Panasonic, Canon and Nikon which all going for FF mirrorless.

Even if I love my Fujinon primes lenses, I think some of them scream for a 'revamp'. In particular the XF 56mmF1.2 R whose optical quality is good but not great (bokeh is not very nice at the widest apertures) and it's AF motorization not suited for continuous AF, or the XF35mmF1.4 R which has a very nice rendering full open but may be better corrected and suffers from the same outdated AF motorization.

Also, with video comes new requirements like the absence of focus breathing and more discret motor noise.

What do you think?

Do you think Fujifilm needs to refresh the XF F1.2 and F1.4 lenses?

Thanks for your opinion.

Fred

16 is great, the others (along with the 60mm) could be upgraded to a MK2 with weather sealing and new AF. The 18mm could have improvements to optics and weather sealing. That said, all these lenses are still very good, but I agree at some point they will get a refresh. Optically Fuji primes are very good. I don’t think they’d add OIS, as I suspect we’ll see IBIS rolled out to more cameras

That's my thoughts,

The only lens that could replace my fantastic 16mm f1.4 will be a 18mm mk2 with all the advantages of new lenses like the 23mm f2, it will be the perfect combination of FOV,compactness ,AF and F opening (hopefully f2 or faster)

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 vegetaleb's gear list:vegetaleb's gear list
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John Motts Veteran Member • Posts: 5,766
Re: Do Fujinon XF F1.2 and F1.4 prime lenses need a 'revamp'?
1

John Gellings wrote:

lélé wrote:

Even if I love my Fujinon primes lenses, I think some of them scream for a 'revamp'. In particular the XF 56mmF1.2 R whose optical quality is good but not great (bokeh is not very nice at the widest apertures) and it's AF motorization not suited for continuous AF, or the XF35mmF1.4 R which has a very nice rendering full open but may be better corrected and suffers from the same outdated AF motorization.

It is not the lens' fault... concentrate on photography, not lenses.

No, those are all factors of the lens. This being a Fuji forum it would seem reasonable to discuss Fuji lenses.

John Motts Veteran Member • Posts: 5,766
Re: Do Fujinon XF F1.2 and F1.4 prime lenses need a 'revamp'?
2

OfDaniel wrote:

Absolutely not. Why on earth Fuji remake a lens 3-5 years after release? Silly talk

Not silly talk at all.

Personally for my uses I would absolutely love an update of the 56mm with better low light focussing. It's a long way behind other manufacturers' current 85mm f/1.4s in that respect which are bigger lenses. The current one is not a problem in decent light though.

I don't think the 23mm f/1.4 and the more recent 16mm f/1.4 are urgent though.

I can't and don't speak for anyone else.

John Motts Veteran Member • Posts: 5,766
Re: Do Fujinon XF F1.2 and F1.4 prime lenses need a 'revamp'?

dual12 wrote:

Virtually no one wants Sigma. I once made the mistake of buying a premium Sigma zoom for my Nikon. The lens was good, not great. I could barely give that lens away for pennies on the dollar when I left Nikon...and it took nearly a year to sell it. Never, ever, ever again.

Sigma makes some very fine lenses nowadays.

Truman Prevatt
Truman Prevatt Veteran Member • Posts: 9,550
Re: Do Fujinon XF F1.2 and F1.4 prime lenses need a 'revamp'?

dual12 wrote:

Virtually no one wants Sigma. I once made the mistake of buying a premium Sigma zoom for my Nikon. The lens was good, not great. I could barely give that lens away for pennies on the dollar when I left Nikon...and it took nearly a year to sell it. Never, ever, ever again.

When Sigma lenses came out they were a piece of garbage.  Cheap - and built that way. The QC was nonexistent.   Apparently Sigma has cleaned up their act but they sure had a long way to go.  Today lenses are no longer mechanical - the camera and lenses are an integrated system each having to have compatible firmware.  Even manual focus on most lenses is fly by wire.

I am still a bit skeptical of third party lenses - especially these days when lens controls are not longer mechanical and everything is fly by wire with lens performance of third party lenses dependent on very precise reverse engineering of the camera and lens firmware and keeping up with the changes.

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Truman
www.pbase.com/tprevatt

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