90D. Well that’s disappointing for us 7D2 users

Started 3 months ago | Discussions
rrc1967 Contributing Member • Posts: 630
Re: 90D. Well that’s disappointing for us 7D2 users

Mark B. wrote:

RogerZoul wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

So specs don’t seem to show dual cards or dual DIGIC, so the 90D isnt any sort of 7D2/80D compromise. It’s just an updated 80D.

I’m a Canon fan, but I really think they made a mistake dumping the 7D range.

But at least Canon just saved me $1500 as I won’t be buying a 90D anytime soon.

Who said Canon dumped the 7D line? Can you show a link for such a statement?

You can't believe all of the rumors around. Save your money and wait for the 7D3 or for an announcement from Canon saying that it isn't coming. I would expect to spend a little more than $1500, though.

I'll be very surprised if 1) there's a 7D III and 2) if the 90D retails for >$1,500.

I think the merging of certain features points to the 7D line coming to an end. Time will, but it was 5 years between the original 7D and another 5 years to it's successor. Now 5 years later there's not a hint of a 7D III but instead there's an 80D successor with features from the 7D II.

Mark

I disagree. The 90D is missing features that are essentially firmware only that could have easily been merged into the 90D from the 7D Mark II. There are size and weight considerations to the 90D versus the 7D Mark II, but many things that could have been added / merged back were not.

We kind of go into it here..

https://www.canonnews.com/so-is-the-90d-actually-a-merge-of-the-7d-mark-ii-and-80d

OP IR1234 Senior Member • Posts: 1,545
Re: Well, I Am Glad The Lines Were Not Merged
1

thomste wrote:

A refresh of the 7D2 would be nice. More MP for instance, touchscreen flippy screen (can't believe I'm saying that - until I bought a 6d2), updated Liveview, etc. There are many places where the 7D could be taken before DSLRs are pensioned off. A lot has happened in the last 5 years and I'd like the 7D range to be given those things.

Doesn't the 90D have more MP, a touch flippy screen & updated liveview?

Yes, but it doesn’t have things like dual cards, won’t have the extended software, single digic will bog down on our workload, and so forth. There are some big differences between the xxd range and 7d range.

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Jack Jian Regular Member • Posts: 216
Re: Well, I Am Glad The Lines Were Not Merged

thomste wrote:

A refresh of the 7D2 would be nice. More MP for instance, touchscreen flippy screen (can't believe I'm saying that - until I bought a 6d2), updated Liveview, etc. There are many places where the 7D could be taken before DSLRs are pensioned off. A lot has happened in the last 5 years and I'd like the 7D range to be given those things.

Doesn't the 90D have more MP, a touch flippy screen & updated liveview?

No, the label doesn't read 7D III 😂

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thomste Forum Member • Posts: 59
Re: Well, I Am Glad The Lines Were Not Merged
3

Jack Jian wrote:

thomste wrote:

A refresh of the 7D2 would be nice. More MP for instance, touchscreen flippy screen (can't believe I'm saying that - until I bought a 6d2), updated Liveview, etc. There are many places where the 7D could be taken before DSLRs are pensioned off. A lot has happened in the last 5 years and I'd like the 7D range to be given those things.

Doesn't the 90D have more MP, a touch flippy screen & updated liveview?

No, the label doesn't read 7D III 😂

I agree, some egos seem to be bruised by a xxD name. A piece of black tape at the right spot and you just got yourself a 9D

RLight Senior Member • Posts: 1,352
DIGIC8 is multicore?
2

IR1234 wrote:

Sharlin wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

So specs don’t seem to show dual cards or dual DIGIC, so the 90D isnt any sort of 7D2/80D compromise. It’s just an updated 80D.

What would they need dual processors for if one DiGIC 8 can do 32MPix @ 10fps? Sensor readout speed is almost certainly a bottleneck at such extreme throughput that out of all Canon cameras only the 1DX 2 has achieved previously! The throughput of the 7D2, with its dual processors, is just 200 Mpix/s. In real-world engineering you can't just make one part of a system faster and expect the whole thing to speed up.

Dual processors is more than MP throughput. If you take our 6d2 into the field where we usually have the 7d2 or 7d, you can feel the af very slightly start to bog down as the processor gets busy shuffling data around. The UI takes a real hit when the camera is busy, even just changing a Q setting let alone image review. The camera just does not have the same snappy feeling the 7d or 7d2 has.

Dual processors also handle things like secondary card resizing, eg L on cf, and S1 on sd, absolutely flawlessly.

Just some food for thought... After playing with two DIGIC8 Canon's now (M50 and EOS R), I'm pretty sure they're multicore. Why? Responsiveness of the camera while it's writing out or AF'ing, etc. You can't get that with just more speed (ghz) and properly using nice values on an OS implementation level. Well, usually anyways.

I noted it was a HUGE jump vs DIGIC7 and before.

Odds are DIGIC8, and newer chips, like smartphone CPUs these days are at least dual core, if not more.

You used two CPUs back in the day on big server rigs because of the need to do it in the same way 1DX models and 7D II etc have. Multicore CPU implementations have (largely) obsoleted this for consumer use.

Think about it for a minute. New DIGIC8 Canon's have the new live sync to your smartphone mode. On mirrorless (like the M50 and R), they have to handle both the presentation of your data on an LCD/EVF (which isn't a problem on an OVF DSLR as that's all old school no electronic presentation, merely AF overlay) and AF calculations, image capture and compression, metering, etc etc etc.

IMO, DIGIC8 is multicore. The data throughput (14x32MP==448mp/sec) also says they didn't just double the ghz somehow (as that's hard to do)... That tells me DIGIC8 is probably a dual core chip (1DX II does like what, 16*20/2=160mp/sec per core) as it's got a slightly higher effective mp/sec which per core if it has two at around 224mp/sec per core if two cores... They didn't just get double the data rate out of thin air.

Make sense?

So yes, dual processors can make a big difference on these cameras when you push them. And we push them.

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OP IR1234 Senior Member • Posts: 1,545
Re: DIGIC8 is multicore?
1

RLight wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

Sharlin wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

So specs don’t seem to show dual cards or dual DIGIC, so the 90D isnt any sort of 7D2/80D compromise. It’s just an updated 80D.

What would they need dual processors for if one DiGIC 8 can do 32MPix @ 10fps? Sensor readout speed is almost certainly a bottleneck at such extreme throughput that out of all Canon cameras only the 1DX 2 has achieved previously! The throughput of the 7D2, with its dual processors, is just 200 Mpix/s. In real-world engineering you can't just make one part of a system faster and expect the whole thing to speed up.

Dual processors is more than MP throughput. If you take our 6d2 into the field where we usually have the 7d2 or 7d, you can feel the af very slightly start to bog down as the processor gets busy shuffling data around. The UI takes a real hit when the camera is busy, even just changing a Q setting let alone image review. The camera just does not have the same snappy feeling the 7d or 7d2 has.

Dual processors also handle things like secondary card resizing, eg L on cf, and S1 on sd, absolutely flawlessly.

Just some food for thought... After playing with two DIGIC8 Canon's now (M50 and EOS R), I'm pretty sure they're multicore. Why? Responsiveness of the camera while it's writing out or AF'ing, etc. You can't get that with just more speed (ghz) and properly using nice values on an OS implementation level. Well, usually anyways.

I noted it was a HUGE jump vs DIGIC7 and before.

Odds are DIGIC8, and newer chips, like smartphone CPUs these days are at least dual core, if not more.

You used two CPUs back in the day on big server rigs because of the need to do it in the same way 1DX models and 7D II etc have. Multicore CPU implementations have (largely) obsoleted this for consumer use.

Think about it for a minute. New DIGIC8 Canon's have the new live sync to your smartphone mode. On mirrorless (like the M50 and R), they have to handle both the presentation of your data on an LCD/EVF (which isn't a problem on an OVF DSLR as that's all old school no electronic presentation, merely AF overlay) and AF calculations, image capture and compression, metering, etc etc etc.

IMO, DIGIC8 is multicore. The data throughput (14x32MP==448mp/sec) also says they didn't just double the ghz somehow (as that's hard to do)... That tells me DIGIC8 is probably a dual core chip (1DX II does like what, 16*20/2=160mp/sec per core) as it's got a slightly higher effective mp/sec which per core if it has two at around 224mp/sec per core if two cores... They didn't just get double the data rate out of thin air.

Make sense?

So yes, dual processors can make a big difference on these cameras when you push them. And we push them.

I see where you're going with this, but, I haven't read anything that DIGIC8 is multicore, and I would assume that if Canon had gone that route, then they would be the first to include it in their literature. Which they haven't.

I'm not sure your analysis is correct though. 14x32 (448) vs 16x20 (320) is a significant speed bump for sure, but the 1DX2 isn't using 2 processors for that speed. That extra cpu will be handling AF and things like compression. Same goes for the 7D2 and 5D4.

So yes, you will see an improved performance on the DIGIC8 cameras, but probably not as much as you think.

You also have to remember that DIGICs are probably less processor and more ASIC. An ASIC will totally absolutely destroy any cpu on a given task. Which is Canon have their own line of processors and aren't using something like an Arm Cortex. You'll also note how Sony have their own BIONZ processors. Again, despite access to an arsenal of processors, they have their own line of processors, so again the DIGIC and BIONZ will be a cross between a processor for general purpose cpu activity like AF, and a number of ASICs.

For reference, my Macbook here has a quad i7 2.7GHz, and at full tilt with something like GraphicsMagick it can resize 8 20MP images per second to 640x. It wind's up it's fans and is really quite impressive. My Canon 7D2s can do exactly the same job, maybe only 7 images per second, and they have no fans, don't get hot, and carry on shooting as if nothing is happening. There is no way Canon have developed a processor as fast as the hundreds of billions Intel have spent to develop and build an i7. So some of these functions are most certainly ASICs.

And as a guess, it's why you really don't see many updates addressing too many baseline features. IIRC, you can't really update an ASIC.

Also, it's really not that easy for some of these jobs to be put across multiple cores or multiple processors. Generally, programmers have wimped out of fully developing software to run across multiple cores/processors (however, my latest is gotcha is the Debian installation of graphicsmagick on a Raspberry Pi does seem to use all the cores, which is really strange, need to investigate that more).

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DaveSL New Member • Posts: 21
Re: DIGIC8 is multicore?
2

With all this talk about the disappointment of the 90D upcoming release I began to loose faith that a 7Dmk3 will be in the future. That is until I saw this at the bottom of the DPREVIEW home screen.....

Rumor: Canon to unveil 7D Mark III 'before Summer 2018'. Here's our wishlist
Dec 18, 2017

Faith restored!

BirdShooter7 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,809
Re: Well, I Am Glad The Lines Were Not Merged
2

It can have a fisher price clickity snap fun label on it and could be hot pink and I don’t care.  The thing speaks for itself and it isn’t a 7d mk2 replacement.  Having said that, if the upgraded features are all you need then it could be a perfect choice for you.

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BirdShooter7 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,809
Re: DIGIC8 is multicore?
4

Does it really matter?  Either it’s got enough processing power to get the job done or it doesn’t, does it make any difference where that power comes from?

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OP IR1234 Senior Member • Posts: 1,545
Re: DIGIC8 is multicore?

BirdShooter7 wrote:

Does it really matter? Either it’s got enough processing power to get the job done or it doesn’t, does it make any difference where that power comes from?

Depends what you’re doing with it. We have 5 photographers booked for a sporting event next weekend (inc me), each 7d2 will be compressing to sd card and compressed L jpeg to cf, and in 3-4 hours the main positions will take something in the region of 18-22,000 images. A 6d2 has trouble keeping up in the peak period just using a single card, whereas the original 7d has no problems with the same job.

So you tell me if it makes a difference? Maybe not for you.

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BirdShooter7 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,809
Re: DIGIC8 is multicore?
3

That’s not what I was saying.  What I am asking is if there is a single core that does the job just as well as two less powerful ones does it really matter to the end user?

Are you suggesting that the only possible way to do what you want is to have two cores?

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Kevinsky New Member • Posts: 6
Re: 90D. Well that’s disappointing for us 7D2 users
1

RedFox88 wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

It’s been 5 years now. This should have been the point at which it was released, and....we got a reheated 80d instead, which was also way overdue.

Way? Nope, just 3 years, about what the 80D serohas been for the past 10 years

At this point, yeah, pretty disappointed Canon owner. Will they release a 7d3 next year? At this point, I doubt it.

Mirrorless 7, as it’ll be a build up to pro sports mirrorless. Canon learns as it develops technology and rarely jumps in at the top end with new technology

Nope just 3yrs??? Huh? IR1234 is correct at 5yrs. 80D serohas been for the past 10 years???? What are you even trying to say here?

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Christoph Stephan
Christoph Stephan Veteran Member • Posts: 4,272
Joy stick - restoration of classical feature of the XXD line

Steve Balcombe wrote:

BirdShooter7 wrote:

I actually take this as good news as I think it means we could still get a 7d mk3.

After a few hours chewing it over, I've come to the same conclusion. My initial reaction was that giving the 90D certain '7D' features like the joystick...

joystick - I still remember the widespread annoyance on this forum when the EOS 60D was released as the first XXD camera without that feature. It was considered a downgrade, a bigger "rebel" not worthy of the XXD name.... with the re-introduction of the A point joystick in the 90D Canon just restored this feature set...

Scond card slot is certainly nice and a good insurance for professional photographers or on the lifetime trip / occasion  - the question is how much more is one prared to pay for it in price or size and weight. I still have an old 7D which at that time didn't have one.

So the 90D is not the predicted re-merge of the XXD and 7D lines - and this launch still leaves the door wide open for a 7D3, maybe in the spring.

Exactly. This missing 2nd card slot in the 90 D is one good indication that Canon pland a 7D Mk III....

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Distinctly Average Contributing Member • Posts: 500
Re: Joy stick - restoration of classical feature of the XXD line

Christoph Stephan wrote:

Steve Balcombe wrote:

BirdShooter7 wrote:

I actually take this as good news as I think it means we could still get a 7d mk3.

After a few hours chewing it over, I've come to the same conclusion. My initial reaction was that giving the 90D certain '7D' features like the joystick...

joystick - I still remember the widespread annoyance on this forum when the EOS 60D was released as the first XXD camera without that feature. It was considered a downgrade, a bigger "rebel" not worthy of the XXD name.... with the re-introduction of the A point joystick in the 90D Canon just restored this feature set...

Scond card slot is certainly nice and a good insurance for professional photographers or on the lifetime trip / occasion - the question is how much more is one prared to pay for it in price or size and weight. I still have an old 7D which at that time didn't have one.

So the 90D is not the predicted re-merge of the XXD and 7D lines - and this launch still leaves the door wide open for a 7D3, maybe in the spring.

Exactly. This missing 2nd card slot in the 90 D is one good indication that Canon pland a 7D Mk III....

My thoughts too. So much is not in 7D territory that this really does not,feel like a merger of two ranges. Great 80D update though that will probably sell loads. I look forward to seeing how it performs.

Let’s hope for a 7D3 in spring at the latest. By then my 7D2 will be knocking on the 250k actuations door. If one does arrive it will Ben interesting to see what card slots it utilises.

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Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 26,197
Re: 90D. Well that’s disappointing for us 7D2 users

Kevinsky wrote:

RedFox88 wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

It’s been 5 years now. This should have been the point at which it was released, and....we got a reheated 80d instead, which was also way overdue.

Way? Nope, just 3 years, about what the 80D serohas been for the past 10 years

At this point, yeah, pretty disappointed Canon owner. Will they release a 7d3 next year? At this point, I doubt it.

Mirrorless 7, as it’ll be a build up to pro sports mirrorless. Canon learns as it develops technology and rarely jumps in at the top end with new technology

Nope just 3yrs??? Huh? IR1234 is correct at 5yrs

He was referring to the 7D series, which has been 5 years between upgrades.  Well, until now.  It will either be longer or...it won't be at all.

Lemming51
Lemming51 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,083
Re: 90D. Well that’s disappointing for us 7D2 users
3

Kevinsky wrote:

RedFox88 wrote:

IR1234 wrote:

It’s been 5 years now. This should have been the point at which it was released, and....we got a reheated 80d instead, which was also way overdue.

Way? Nope, just 3 years, about what the 80D serohas been for the past 10 years

...

Nope just 3yrs??? Huh? IR1234 is correct at 5yrs. 80D serohas been for the past 10 years???? What are you even trying to say here?

He meant the 90D comes 3 yrs after the 80D, which is right on schedule for the x0D series, not "also way overdue".

Re 7D III, just have to wait and see.  So long as the 7D II remains in the line and available, the series is not dead.  A III may come at 5 1/2 yrs or 6.  90D release tells us nothing of the 7D line future.

IMHO, YMMV.

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RickyJred2057 Junior Member • Posts: 44
Re: 90D. Well that’s disappointing for us 7D2 users
2

How many 7DII Has canon sold? When I am out crafting pictures of birds, I see a lot of 7D and not much else. Never see 80D or once in a while a 5D and never any Nikon D500. I would think canon would be making a profit on the the 7D? The 7D would not be cost canon a lot to upgrade and they would sell a boat load if they did it right.

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quokka Regular Member • Posts: 209
Perhaps a good time to consider Roger's Law
2

Given the number of threads concerning the yet unseen 90D.  Perhaps we should consider Roger's Law.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/01/rogers-law-of-new-product-introduction/

Personally, I think that if the AF performance will be the key element for those looking to replace the 7D2.

Q

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TheBlackGrouse
TheBlackGrouse Senior Member • Posts: 3,013
Re: 90D. Well that’s disappointing for us 7D2 users
2

RickyJred2057 wrote:

How many 7DII Has canon sold? When I am out crafting pictures of birds, I see a lot of 7D and not much else. Never see 80D or once in a while a 5D and never any Nikon D500. I would think canon would be making a profit on the the 7D? The 7D would not be cost canon a lot to upgrade and they would sell a boat load if they did it right.

Same impression for the Netherlands, although Nikon is a bit more popular here (close to 10%).

Bird photographers: 75% 7DII, a few 5D and 1D cameras. The 80D is rare but you see it once in a while. Once or twice a year a Sony.

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JPAlbert Contributing Member • Posts: 633
Re: 90D. Well that’s disappointing for us 7D2 users
1

All you guys waiting for Canon to release a 7dmk3... come over here and take a seat on this bench for folks waitin' for SONY to release another crop-sensor A-mount camera...

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