Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...

Started 3 months ago | Discussions
xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,677
Re: Ted, help...

DMillier wrote:

Hi Ted

I have read through this whole thread (to date) and I have to confess to being completely confused. I have failed to understand what photographic point is being made by all this.

My lack of understanding is my fault, of course, but a plain English executive summary in one post noting down what you are trying to express and why, and what has been concluded from the thread would be very welcome.

Best

Dave

I'll try to explain my point, Dave.

Some people here decry the viewing of an image at 100% or more, calling it "pixel-peeping" using that as a derisory term.

I tried to claim in the first post that it is not possible to check the quality of am image's detail without peeping. In that post, I also offered a definition of that nebulous word "detail".

The first post was not understood by-and-large, because of my "wait to see the proof" mistake. Some thought that it was a peculiar Ted-joke.

In a subsequent post https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62954906 I illustrated my point by offering an artificial detail which looks like a small gray square, even at 100%, but in fact is a 1-pixel grid. The grid can only be seen on my monitor by pixel-peeping at considerably more than 100%.

That post was intended to follow the initial post almost immediately but there was an onslaught of cracks and misunderstanding, thereby causing the initial post to almost stand alone which in turn increased the misunderstanding - not to mention the diversion caused by La Belle Jordana.

The overall point of the thread being to offer a proof that detail can not be examined without pixel-peeping, in rebuttal to those who decry it.

The lack of response from any anti-peepers has pretty much deflated the thread, IMO.

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Ted

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DMillier Forum Pro • Posts: 21,280
Re: Ted, help...
1

Ah, thanks for the explanation.

I'm surprised that anyone would object to "pixel peeping" for the purposes of examining image quality. How can you sharpen without 1:1 viewing, for example?

The negativity around pixel peeping should really be confined to something else: people who forget that function of some images is often to be viewed as a whole, as a complete composition, not explored at pixel level. For such images, where the content carries the image, the minutiae of technical quality is often not relevant. However, sometimes, some people seem to focus exclusively on the pixel level stuff when judging the value of an image.

The thing to remember, in my view, is the intended application of the picture and whether the image quality is sufficient for that application. I've often said that if the image quality of a print from a particular file doesn't stand up to close scrutiny, print it smaller until it looks ok. I like Imaging Resource's print quality evaluations, where they give a maximum print size at different ISOs to illustrate the difference between the maximum possible quality and the practical quality. I guess something similar applies to screen viewing - if it isn't good enough but the picture is worth viewing, downsize until it works. Zooming out, rather than in may not help you refine an image but it certainly covers up many pixel level sins.

Many bun fights online seem to derive from people trying to prove camera X is ultimately superior to camera Y (and camera Y is therefore only fit for landfill) rather than being pragmatic and realising that many cameras are far from the state of the art but continue to perfectly useful devices as long as you don't stretch beyond their capabilities.

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MyReality
MyReality Contributing Member • Posts: 802
Re: I recant

My white flag is up and waving.

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xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,677
Re: I recant

MyReality wrote:

My white flag is up and waving.

OK ... deal!

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Ted

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MyReality
MyReality Contributing Member • Posts: 802
Re: I recant

I was not trolling and my intention was not to doom the sight. What brought it close to doom was a sideline discussion of "confirmation bias".

Definitions:

Obsession - "a persistent disturbing preoccupation with an often unreasonable idea or feeling".

Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder - "Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) is a common, chronic and long-lasting disorder in which a person has uncontrollable, reoccurring thoughts (obsessions) and behaviors (compulsions) that he or she feels the urge to repeat over and over."

An obsession of photographic detail or noise or technology, etc. is different then just caring about.   You care about them, deal with them and then you go on to the next thing.  You do not become angry and create a tirade.

"the devil is in the details" - is an English metaphor that means that a problem is in the micro("zoomed in) level and not the macro("zoomed" out) level.

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Adielle
Adielle Senior Member • Posts: 1,754
Re: I recant

MyReality wrote:

I was not trolling and my intention was not to doom the sight. What brought it close to doom was a sideline discussion of "confirmation bias".

Definitions:

Please...

As for "zooming", no, you don't "zoom" when you view a picture that was not downscaled nor upscaled using whatever interpolation, you view it in its unmodified form. If you don't like the fact that it's only a segment of the whole picture, because your monitor doesn't have such a high resolution, that's another matter, and if you don't like the fact that something seems too close, back away from the monitor. If you want to view the entire picture unmodified by downscaling or upscaling, print it (preferably using a printer and paper that don't produce noticeable artifacts). Viewing a dowscaled picture only allows you to properly assess the quality of a downscaled picture, but never the quality of the original picture.

MyReality
MyReality Contributing Member • Posts: 802
Re: I recant

When I right zooming it means either with a lens or on a monitor with software.  When I right "zooming", notice the "", do not take it literally.  It means looking loser mentally.

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Adielle
Adielle Senior Member • Posts: 1,754
Re: I recant

MyReality wrote:

When I right zooming it means either with a lens or on a monitor with software. When I right "zooming", notice the "", do not take it literally. It means looking loser mentally.

There is no "micro" nor "macro", there is only a picture made of pixels, and whenever you interpolate those pixels, you change the entire picture, not a "micro aspect" nor a "macro aspect" of the picture. People who say they "don't pixel-peep" usually mean that they only view a downscaled / interpolated version of the original picture.

docmaas
docmaas Veteran Member • Posts: 6,523
Re: I recant
2

MyReality wrote:

"the devil is in the details" - is an English metaphor that means that a problem is in the micro("zoomed in) level and not the macro("zoomed" out) level.

No it doesn't. It means that a cursory glance at any phenomenon can lead to a simple explanation but when examined more closely the details reveal it to be not so simple as initially thought.

Many, probably most, examples of confirmation bias are based on such cursory examinations including your original assessment of the characters of the posters on this forum.

To wit: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62962597 Where you said:

"Foveon sensor people seemed to be very biased towards their equipment."

and further in: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62967393 where you said:

"My experience in commuting (sic) with people on this forum about Foveon sensors and prints leads me to conclude that they are not susceptible to logic."

These are statements easily determined to be impacted by confirmation bias.  Had you bothered to find out what confirmation bias is you might have learned something useful about how we as humans confuse ourselves by not being able to see new things other than in the context of things we've seen before.  The only way around that is to test your conclusions and the way that is usually done is by creating a hypothesis to explain a phenomenon and then an experiment to test  the hypothesis.

I have no idea where you got the idea I ever expressed anything about detail in an image or how to test for it or denied anything you said about that topic in this thread.  You must have gotten confused somewhere along the line.

If you had not expressed those unfounded, other than in your own confirmation biased mind, opinions about Sigma user there would have been no objections from me.  But you did and so I did respond and probably would do so again.  As another poster concluded confirmation bias is at the root of a lot of human miscommunication.  Unfortunately as the example from Bacon shows it's nothing new.  I am sure it will not be recognized by most nor result in any real improvement in communication between differing groups of people except on an individual basis but I'll continue to do my little bit to bring it to light when an opportunity presents itself.

Mike

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MyReality
MyReality Contributing Member • Posts: 802
Re: I recant

DEFINITION:
"the devil is in the details" - the details of a matter are its most problematic aspect.

Definition: "confirmation bias" NOUN
the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one's existing beliefs or theories.

Definiton: Micro - ADJECTIVE
extremely small.

Definition: Macro - ADJECTIVE
large-scale; overall. often contrasted with micro.

The issue is not as complicated as you want to make it, cloaking it in philosophy does not help.

First. I was replying to Mike Gerstner, not you.

Second, in light of the definitions above, there should no problems in interpreting my previous posts.

Confirmation of ones beliefs thru tests is at the heart of the scientific method.  If a person makes a claim about anything than can be tested, he/she should be ready to have in confirmed, if that person wants to be believed.  If that person does not care if anyone believes them, the conversation can end there.  In some areas, new evidence is always confirmed, such as in police work.

A theory is considered valid, as long as at least one example is not found thru testing that denies the theory.  if you state an opinion as theory, that it makes it open to testing.

One person that responded to one of my posts claimed to be a VICTOM of confirmation bias.  What does not mean?  Does it mean that she expects to be believed point-blank, no matter what she says.

From what I have read from other posters responding to me, they seem to be using "confirmation bias" as an excuse to have whatever they say accepted verbatim.

As for as alternative beliefs or methods are concerned, what does that mean?  Intuition.

It is a free country, you can believe whatever you want.

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saltydogstudios Senior Member • Posts: 1,225
Re: I recant
1

This forum is the only place where we you're nearly guaranteed to get into an argument about the definition[1] of definition[2].

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TN Args
TN Args Veteran Member • Posts: 8,518
Re: I recant

saltydogstudios wrote:

This forum is the only place where we you're nearly guaranteed to get into an argument about the definition[1] of definition[2].

His username is MyReality, so what did you expect?

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saltydogstudios Senior Member • Posts: 1,225
Re: I recant

TN Args wrote:

saltydogstudios wrote:

This forum is the only place where we you're nearly guaranteed to get into an argument about the definition[1] of definition[2].

His username is MyReality, so what did you expect?

lol. I was making a funny on the dual meaning of definition - we do (all) seem to argue quite a bit about "definition" (the meaning of) the word "definition" (detail).

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docmaas
docmaas Veteran Member • Posts: 6,523
Re: I recant

First, I appreciate the humor. 

The second meaning will be more applicable to this forum and even more so to this thread in particular.

The first, given the breadth of the use of any term by anyone anywhere is almost useless as any kind of, other than the most general, discriminator and as an argument in a debate is close to useless.  Nevertheless the less sophisticated seem to assume it is a "definitive" concluding disproof of an opponents contentions assuming that there is only a singular interpretation, namely theirs, which is agreed upon by all.  Such an assumption is prima facie false.

Mike

saltydogstudios wrote:

This forum is the only place where we you're nearly guaranteed to get into an argument about the definition[1] of definition[2].

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xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,677
Re: I recant

docmaas wrote:

First, I appreciate the humor.

The second meaning will be more applicable to this forum and even more so to this thread in particular.

The first, given the breadth of the use of any term by anyone anywhere is almost useless as any kind of, other than the most general, discriminator and as an argument in a debate is close to useless. Nevertheless the less sophisticated seem to assume it is a "definitive" concluding disproof of an opponents contentions assuming that there is only a singular interpretation, namely theirs, which is agreed upon by all. Such an assumption is prima facie false.

Mike

saltydogstudios wrote:

This forum is the only place where we you're nearly guaranteed to get into an argument about the definition[1] of definition[2].

This sub-discussion makes me really glad that I recanted when I did!

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Ted

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Innocentius Contributing Member • Posts: 640
Three points clear - one unanswered
2

1. There was some kind of miscommunication between two highly respected members of this group. And this was solved

2. Some semantics discussion ignited which I did not follow

3. Still, there is no further information on Jordana, and I really would like to know / see more on this model

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docmaas
docmaas Veteran Member • Posts: 6,523
Re: I recant

Point taken.  I now understand what you said about the devil in the details to be correct. I mistook it as having to do with the ways "micro" and "macro" are used in photography.

Mike

MyReality wrote:

DEFINITION:
"the devil is in the details" - the details of a matter are its most problematic aspect.

Definition: "confirmation bias" NOUN
the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one's existing beliefs or theories.

Definiton: Micro - ADJECTIVE
extremely small.

Definition: Macro - ADJECTIVE
large-scale; overall. often contrasted with micro.

The issue is not as complicated as you want to make it, cloaking it in philosophy does not help.

First. I was replying to Mike Gerstner, not you.

Second, in light of the definitions above, there should no problems in interpreting my previous posts.

Confirmation of ones beliefs thru tests is at the heart of the scientific method. If a person makes a claim about anything than can be tested, he/she should be ready to have in confirmed, if that person wants to be believed. If that person does not care if anyone believes them, the conversation can end there. In some areas, new evidence is always confirmed, such as in police work.

A theory is considered valid, as long as at least one example is not found thru testing that denies the theory. if you state an opinion as theory, that it makes it open to testing.

One person that responded to one of my posts claimed to be a VICTOM of confirmation bias. What does not mean? Does it mean that she expects to be believed point-blank, no matter what she says.

From what I have read from other posters responding to me, they seem to be using "confirmation bias" as an excuse to have whatever they say accepted verbatim.

As for as alternative beliefs or methods are concerned, what does that mean? Intuition.

It is a free country, you can believe whatever you want.

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"Dao ke dao, fei chang dao. Ming ke ming, fei chang ming" Laozi
"At every crossroads on the path that leads to the future, tradition has placed 10,000 men to guard the past."
Maurice Maeterlinck

Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 13,799
Re: Three points clear - one unanswered

Innocentius wrote:

1. There was some kind of miscommunication between two highly respected members of this group. And this was solved

2. Some semantics discussion ignited which I did not follow

3. Still, there is no further information on Jordana, and I really would like to know / see more on this model

How about this one?

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https://www.bigprintphotos.com/

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MyReality
MyReality Contributing Member • Posts: 802
Re: I recant

Agree.  Some words have more than one definition, but the most prevalent usage is usually listed first in a dictionary.  A good dictionary, especially one that is universally used and considered to be the Bible of dictionaries, like the Oxford Dictionary Of English, stands as a wall against people making up their own definitions.

Lets see if we can find the definition of 3D Pop.

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saltydogstudios Senior Member • Posts: 1,225
Re: Three points clear - one unanswered

Scottelly wrote:

Innocentius wrote:

1. There was some kind of miscommunication between two highly respected members of this group. And this was solved

2. Some semantics discussion ignited which I did not follow

3. Still, there is no further information on Jordana, and I really would like to know / see more on this model

How about this one?

That's considerably better than I usually manage with a Foveon when I go to the beach. This is probably my most successful outdoor Foveon excursion.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bi3Bqyqjw5U/

After a few not-so-great Foveon outings, I've gone back to CFA for especially something back-lit like this. (or at least where the subject is in shadow and the background is not).

It's too bad because the sync-at-any-speed of the dp series makes it quite useful for overpowering the sun with a simple strobe.

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