Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...

Started 3 months ago | Discussions
Mike Gerstner Veteran Member • Posts: 4,292
Re: I recant
1

MyReality wrote:

You quoted a passage from Francis Bacon. He was a philosopher not a scientist. Belief and faith are not the same thing as scientific proof. I repeat, your opinion on anything is not proof of anything. What you say is truth, does not make it truth.

I suggested an objective test to remove most bias and see with sensors give the best prints but you ignored that. Re-read my post about Copernicus.

Try to use some logic and scientific method thought in your next post. Albert Einstein would not have been believed if he just said "I believe it, therefore it has to be true". Do you believe in flying saucers, because some people claim to have seen them?

It's unfortunate that you can't see the that Mr. Bacon is actually explaining that people with confirmation bias don't have the ability to see beyond their bias to use logic and reason (the "scientific method") to come to conclusions outside their biases.

......."he rejects difficult things from impatience of research; sober things, because they narrow hope; the deeper things of nature, from superstition; the light of experience, from arrogance and pride, lest his mind should seem to be occupied with things mean and transitory; things not commonly believed, out of deference to the opinion of the vulgar. Numberless in short are the ways, and sometimes imperceptible, in which the affections colour and infect the understanding"

I think it's a wonderful quote that explains, in a very elegant way, the reasons for much of the controversy, in this forum, and in most contentious issues facing the world today.

Thanks for sharing the quote Mike, I love it..........gonna make a poster out if it and send it to both of my enlightened friends. Won't send it to unenlightened people I know, they won't get it either

MyReality
MyReality Contributing Member • Posts: 802
Re: I recant
2

"confirmation bias" - NOUN
the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one's existing beliefs or theories.

This thread was started by a poster claiming that foveon sensors were superior because he could "see" that they were. It diverged to a philosophical word salad discussion of "confirmation bias", not science based on logic.

Francis Bacon actually supports my use of logic and the scientific method in objective testing which Dogmas ignored.

Subjective opinion is not new evidence in the quote above and we were talking about sensors not philosophy.

The arrogance of Dogmass speaks for itself.

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xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,706
Re: I recant
1

MyReality wrote:

This thread was started by a poster claiming that foveon sensors were superior because he could "see" that they were.

I made no such claim.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62952488

Putting words in my mouth is a pathetic tactic.

It diverged to a philosophical word salad discussion of "confirmation bias", not science based on logic.

It devolved into a mess of irrelevant verbiage, caused mostly by your goodself.

The arrogance of Dogmass speaks for itself.

The implicit rudeness did not go unnoticed - complaint filed (no doubt you're used to it) and back onto the 'ignore list' you will go.

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Ted

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xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,706
Second request: Moderators please lock this thread or ban @MyReality

MyReality wrote:

"confirmation bias" - NOUN
the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one's existing beliefs or theories.

This thread was started by a poster claiming that foveon sensors were superior because he could "see" that they were. It diverged to a philosophical word salad discussion of "confirmation bias", not science based on logic.

Francis Bacon actually supports my use of logic and the scientific method in objective testing which Dogmas ignored.

Subjective opinion is not new evidence in the quote above and we were talking about sensors not philosophy.

The arrogance of Dogmass speaks for itself.

Idiot.

-- hide signature --

Ted

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docmaas
docmaas Veteran Member • Posts: 6,533
Re: I recant

There is no surer sign of the loss of an argument than resorting to attempting to ridicule your opponent.

complaint filed.

Plonk!

MyReality wrote:

The arrogance of Dogmass speaks for itself.

-- hide signature --

"Dao ke dao, fei chang dao. Ming ke ming, fei chang ming" Laozi
"At every crossroads on the path that leads to the future, tradition has placed 10,000 men to guard the past."
Maurice Maeterlinck

docmaas
docmaas Veteran Member • Posts: 6,533
Re: I recant

Thanks for the positive note.  I'm pretty sure your English is up to it.

I speak only English and Mandarin Chinese, the latter fluidly rather than fluently.  Even pidgin Chinese serves for day to day though I'd never be able to conduct this level of conversation or argument in it.

Mike

Adielle wrote:

docmaas wrote:

MyReality wrote:

You quoted a passage from Francis Bacon. He was a philosopher not a scientist. Belief and faith are not the same thing as scientific proof. I repeat, your opinion on anything is not proof of anything. What you say is truth, does not make it truth.

One who denies based on the status or role of the individual who makes the statement commits the logical error of fallacy of authority. What Francis Bacon was or did does not deter from the validity of his writing/thinking.

I suggested an objective test to remove most bias and see with sensors give the best prints but you ignored that. Re-read my post about Copernicus.

Sorry, not interested in this nor in your other attempts to redirect the conversation.

Try to use some logic and scientific method thought in your next post. Albert Einstein would not have been believed if he just said "I believe it, therefore it has to be true". Do you believe in flying saucers, because some people claim to have seen them?

I'll ignore the above as I have the other attempts to change the subject.

My original critique about your confirmation bias stands unresponded to. You have repeatedly attempted to change the topic with non sequiturs believing, I assume, that these somehow address my original point which they do not. Moreover, when I don't respond to them you assume it is because I don't agree. In fact I may well agree with some of them but you have no way of knowing if I do since I haven't addressed them. Instead you accuse me of not agreeing, not believing, and other assorted things you seem to think I believe or even said despite the fact that I have not addressed them at all.

However, I tire of this fruitless discussion and my last response was simply an attempt to help you understand the original criticism I made which was simply that your opinion was nothing more than an opinion and that any "objective" understanding of any phenomenon is unavoidably tainted by prior experience the process of which is termed "confirmation bias." I also said that you were no different in that aspect than any other person myself included. None of us are able to see anything as it actually is; everything observed is seen the context of past experience.

I've ignored your various assertions because they were non sequiturs to my original response to you having nothing to do with the topic of "confirmation bias".

I'm through with this discussion however and you may have the last word.

Mike

Apologies to Ted who originated this thread. Thanks to those who found it entertaining.

I've run into all kinds of personal attacks because I dared to point out that well known and thoroughly researched things like confirmation bias affect people including myself all the time in all kinds of fields, so therefore the points that were made were invalid. People are eager to take every single little common deficiency that you point out as a personal attack against them, and the discussion is totally destroyed sooner than you can say "confirmation bias". I wish I had your level of English to be able to write a response as perfect as yours, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able do it even in my native language. You shouldn't apologize for continuing this off course discussion, because your posts lay out some important logic and people who read them may benefit.

-- hide signature --

"Dao ke dao, fei chang dao. Ming ke ming, fei chang ming" Laozi
"At every crossroads on the path that leads to the future, tradition has placed 10,000 men to guard the past."
Maurice Maeterlinck

docmaas
docmaas Veteran Member • Posts: 6,533
Re: I recant

Mike, always glad to see others become aware of the "human situation" in any context. Thanks for the feedback and post a copy of your poster when you get it done. I might want a few myself. I recently saw a short video of Slavoj Zizek explaining how those of different political persuasions might view the same even and come to opposing interpretations that similarly illuminated the problems we have communicating due to confirmation bias.  Wish I had retained the link but sadly did not.

Mike

Mike Gerstner wrote:

MyReality wrote:

You quoted a passage from Francis Bacon. He was a philosopher not a scientist. Belief and faith are not the same thing as scientific proof. I repeat, your opinion on anything is not proof of anything. What you say is truth, does not make it truth.

I suggested an objective test to remove most bias and see with sensors give the best prints but you ignored that. Re-read my post about Copernicus.

Try to use some logic and scientific method thought in your next post. Albert Einstein would not have been believed if he just said "I believe it, therefore it has to be true". Do you believe in flying saucers, because some people claim to have seen them?

It's unfortunate that you can't see the that Mr. Bacon is actually explaining that people with confirmation bias don't have the ability to see beyond their bias to use logic and reason (the "scientific method") to come to conclusions outside their biases.

......."he rejects difficult things from impatience of research; sober things, because they narrow hope; the deeper things of nature, from superstition; the light of experience, from arrogance and pride, lest his mind should seem to be occupied with things mean and transitory; things not commonly believed, out of deference to the opinion of the vulgar. Numberless in short are the ways, and sometimes imperceptible, in which the affections colour and infect the understanding"

I think it's a wonderful quote that explains, in a very elegant way, the reasons for much of the controversy, in this forum, and in most contentious issues facing the world today.

Thanks for sharing the quote Mike, I love it..........gonna make a poster out if it and send it to both of my enlightened friends. Won't send it to unenlightened people I know, they won't get it either

-- hide signature --

"Dao ke dao, fei chang dao. Ming ke ming, fei chang ming" Laozi
"At every crossroads on the path that leads to the future, tradition has placed 10,000 men to guard the past."
Maurice Maeterlinck

MyReality
MyReality Contributing Member • Posts: 802
Re: I recant
1

"This thread was started by a poster claiming that foveon sensors were superior because he could "see" that they were.

I did not mention you above.  Re-read my statement.  Do not put words in my mouth.

I did not start anything.  My posts were logical and about sensors not philosophy.  Docmass ignored my post and started a discussion about "confirmation bias".

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MyReality
MyReality Contributing Member • Posts: 802
Re: I recant

I thought you were finished with me.  Arrogant is not a four letter word.  It is an adjective like bad.

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MyReality
MyReality Contributing Member • Posts: 802
Re: Second request: Moderators please lock this thread or ban @MyReality

I know you can do better than just calling me an idiot.  Since that was you response, I will assume that you are not capable of logical thought.

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xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,706
Re: I recant

MyReality wrote:

"This thread was started by a poster claiming that foveon sensors were superior because he could "see" that they were."

I did not mention you above.

Idiot. This thread was started by me.

Re-read my statement.

I don't have to ...

Do not put words in my mouth.

The puerile tactic of repeating an opponent's admonition has bounced right back at you, because ...

.. the above-quoted words came from your own mouth, troll:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62986868

I did not start anything. My posts were logical and about sensors not philosophy. Docmass ignored my post and started a discussion about "confirmation bias".

That would be 'Docmaas' ... and, in any case, your posts are best ignored.

I repeat: "Never mind, Scott - now that @MyReality has joined us, the thread is doomed."

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62956858

Apparently, the Moderators are quite content with your drivel - so, let's have it ...

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xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,706
Re: Second request: Moderators please lock this thread or ban @MyReality

MyReality wrote:

I know you can do better than just calling me an idiot.

Yes, that was a bit mild and, yes, I can do MUCH better than that.

Since that was you response, I will assume that you are not capable of logical thought.

It's a free country, assume whatever you like.

While you're here ...

"You might want to check how many photographers are making money in stock photography with 3-5 mpx cameras from years ago. It surprised me. I am not even mentioning post or gift cards. 5 mpix is all you need for a great looking 8x10 glossy print. This camera is mpixel overkill."

Here, we use MP, not milli-pixel, LOL.

"@armandino - Do you know the difference between objective and subjective? Opinions are subjective and are always biased. Nature is objective. A bench test of a lens is objective if a machine is doing it and there is no human interference. Your eyes see objectively, but your brain gives a subjective interpretation."

I'm sure the hapless @armandino was eternally grateful for that little lecture.

"Well said. It is a good Kubrick can not be replicated."

"a good Kubrick"? ... ¿como?

Might as well mention that "foveon" is a company and therefore starts with a capital letter.

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Ted

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MyReality
MyReality Contributing Member • Posts: 802
Re: I recant

This thread is not doomed, it became more interesting.  It is ironic that this thread became what it is on a site like dpreview, which supposedly dedicates itself to scientific thought in its tests(both objective and subjective).  I did not realize that there were so many closet non-believers in the scientific maxim "prove it".  They need there own "confirmation bias" forum.

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MyReality
MyReality Contributing Member • Posts: 802
Re: Second request: Moderators please lock this thread or ban @MyReality

When people insult me, I insist that they be creative.  Congratulations, you have implied that you can be.:-)

Yes, it is a free country, but too many people are insecure.  It does not look like you are one of them.

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xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,706
Re: I recant
1

MyReality wrote:

This thread is not doomed, it became more interesting. It is ironic that this thread became what it is on a site like dpreview, which supposedly dedicates itself to scientific thought in its tests(both objective and subjective). I did not realize that there were so many closet non-believers in the scientific maxim "prove it". They need there own "confirmation bias" forum.

That would be "their". It would help if a supporter of the scientific method could actually spell.

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Ted

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xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,706
Re: Second request: Moderators please lock this thread or ban @MyReality

MyReality wrote:

When people insult me, I insist that they be creative. Congratulations, you have implied that you can be.:-)

Yes, it is a free country, but too many people are insecure. It does not look like you are one of them.

Thank you!

Shall we call a truce?

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Ted

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Adielle
Adielle Senior Member • Posts: 1,754
Re: I recant
3

MyReality wrote:

This thread is not doomed

You came to claim that the post was about "obsession about detail", so right from the start, you claimed someone is obsessive just because they care about the level of detail. You used the phrase "the devil is in the details" to further try to doom this evil thread about "obsession about detail". I mean there can't possibly be a way that you actually think that you were not trolling. Anyway, this thread IS pretty much doomed, with all the extremely unpleasant name calling and all that crap. Are you happy about this? I'm not saying it's strictly your fault, but it's pretty obvious that you were aiming to doom this thread. Why not be nice, instead?

MyReality
MyReality Contributing Member • Posts: 802
Re: I recant

Give me a break!  My excuse is, I'm old.

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xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,706
Re: I recant

MyReality wrote:

Give me a break! My excuse is, I'm old.

Me too. Still ready for a truce ...

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Ted

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DMillier Forum Pro • Posts: 21,286
Ted, help...
1

Hi Ted

I have read through this whole thread (to date) and I have to confess to being completely confused. I have failed to understand what photographic point is being made by all this.

My lack of understanding is my fault, of course, but a plain English executive summary in one post noting down what you are trying to express and why, and what has been concluded from the thread  would be very welcome.

Best

Dave

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