Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...

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xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,509
Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...
1

We talk about "detail" a lot in this Forum, perhaps because the Foveon is quite good at recording said detail.

I often wonder what "detail" is. In my own mind, detail is objects no smaller than one pixel at the sensor. My DP2M has a 5um pixel spacing and a 30mm focal length lens but how does that translate to objects in the scene? By which I mean that a leaf shot at minimum focusing distance is hardly a "detail" - but that same leaf shot from a mile away is beyond even the resolution of the Mighty Merrill.

Easy enough really, if we now talk about angles. The DP2M pixel at 30mm subtends an angle of about 0.6 minutes of arc, i.e. 0.1666 milli-radians (mrad). On the other side of the lens, i.e. in the scene, such a detail is easily calculated. An object 1 meter away will be 0.167mm large, 100 meters away the same 1-pixel detail will be 16.67mm large. Piece of doddle.

Although I have a DP2M, shooting anything with such detail is quite a challenge for me such that I find it necessary to go beyond 100% zoom in post to make sure my shots are at least half-decent. Of course, others here are so good at capturing "detail" that they need no such assurance and they cannot understand why I pixel-peep even at 100%.

So, in defense of pixel-peeping, I took a virtual shot of small piece of virtual mesh with exactly one-pixel dimensions with a virtual DP2M. Here is that virtual "shot":

So, how "good" is that mesh detail? Anybody?

No peeping now, y'hear? - but feel free to use a real magnifying glass on your monitor ...

More to come later ...

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Ted

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Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 13,564
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...

You said, "radians." Uh, huh huh huh. Huh, huh huh.

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xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,509
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...
2

Scottelly wrote:

You said, "radians." Uh, huh huh huh. Huh, huh huh.

Yet another crack from the Forum Seer.

I am reminded of Jake in "Two and a Half Men".

You DO know what a radian is, right?

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Ted

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Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 13,564
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...
2

xpatUSA wrote:

Scottelly wrote:

You said, "radians." Uh, huh huh huh. Huh, huh huh.

Yet another crack from the Forum Seer.

I am reminded of Jake in "Two and a Half Men".

You DO know what a radian is, right?

Uh . . . you said, "See her." Huh huh huh huh.

This is Jordana. She took off her orange dress, so you could see her. Uh, huh huh huh.

Get it Ted? Huh huh huh.

Take a look at THOSE pixels.

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xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,509
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...
1

Scottelly wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

Scottelly wrote:

You said, "radians." Uh, huh huh huh. Huh, huh huh.

Yet another crack from the Forum Seer.

I am reminded of Jake in "Two and a Half Men".

You DO know what a radian is, right?

Uh . . . you said, "See her." Huh huh huh huh.

This is Jordana. She took off her orange dress, so you could see her. Uh, huh huh huh.

Get it Ted? Huh huh huh.

Take a look at THOSE pixels.

Scott, I think you're losing it.

Thank you for making a mockery of what was intended to be a serious thread.

I've unsubscribed.

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Ted

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D Cox Forum Pro • Posts: 24,041
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...
1

xpatUSA wrote:

We talk about "detail" a lot in this Forum, perhaps because the Foveon is quite good at recording said detail.

I often wonder what "detail" is. In my own mind, detail is objects no smaller than one pixel at the sensor. My DP2M has a 5um pixel spacing and a 30mm focal length lens but how does that translate to objects in the scene? By which I mean that a leaf shot at minimum focusing distance is hardly a "detail" - but that same leaf shot from a mile away is beyond even the resolution of the Mighty Merrill.

Easy enough really, if we now talk about angles. The DP2M pixel at 30mm subtends an angle of about 0.6 minutes of arc, i.e. 0.1666 milli-radians (mrad). On the other side of the lens, i.e. in the scene, such a detail is easily calculated. An object 1 meter away will be 0.167mm large, 100 meters away the same 1-pixel detail will be 16.67mm large. Piece of doddle.

This kind of calculation is useful when you have to photograph a large painting.

Although I have a DP2M, shooting anything with such detail is quite a challenge for me such that I find it necessary to go beyond 100% zoom in post to make sure my shots are at least half-decent. Of course, others here are so good at capturing "detail" that they need no such assurance and they cannot understand why I pixel-peep even at 100%.

So, in defense of pixel-peeping, I took a virtual shot of small piece of virtual mesh with exactly one-pixel dimensions with a virtual DP2M. Here is that virtual "shot":

So, how "good" is that mesh detail? Anybody?

No peeping now, y'hear? - but feel free to use a real magnifying glass on your monitor ...

More to come later ...

Good stuff. More please.

xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,509
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...

D Cox wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

We talk about "detail" a lot in this Forum, perhaps because the Foveon is quite good at recording said detail.

I often wonder what "detail" is. In my own mind, detail is objects no smaller than one pixel at the sensor. My DP2M has a 5um pixel spacing and a 30mm focal length lens but how does that translate to objects in the scene? By which I mean that a leaf shot at minimum focusing distance is hardly a "detail" - but that same leaf shot from a mile away is beyond even the resolution of the Mighty Merrill.

Easy enough really, if we now talk about angles. The DP2M pixel at 30mm subtends an angle of about 0.6 minutes of arc, i.e. 0.1666 milli-radians (mrad). On the other side of the lens, i.e. in the scene, such a detail is easily calculated. An object 1 meter away will be 0.167mm large, 100 meters away the same 1-pixel detail will be 16.67mm large. Piece of doddle.

This kind of calculation is useful when you have to photograph a large painting.

Although I have a DP2M, shooting anything with such detail is quite a challenge for me such that I find it necessary to go beyond 100% zoom in post to make sure my shots are at least half-decent. Of course, others here are so good at capturing "detail" that they need no such assurance and they cannot understand why I pixel-peep even at 100%.

So, in defense of pixel-peeping, I took a virtual shot of small piece of virtual mesh with exactly one-pixel dimensions with a virtual DP2M. Here is that virtual "shot":

So, how "good" is that mesh detail? Anybody?

No peeping now, y'hear? - but feel free to use a real magnifying glass on your monitor ...

More to come later ...

Good stuff. More please.

Thank you, Don.

With this post, I hope to show that image "detail" can not be assessed without zooming to more than 100% - a practice frowned upon by some people here (you know who you are ).

In the above image and in the post view, the virtual mesh looks like a gray square on my monitor. Application of a 10X jeweler's loupe reveals ... a gray square made up of RGB sub-pixels. No prob . . . go to "original size" ... Nope, even viewing with a powerful pocket microscope reveals only a hint of a mesh with very low contrast.

At this point, the anti-peeper would have no idea what the quality of that detail is, because he "never views at more than 100%".

On the other hand, the peeper can zoom in by integer factors, X1,X2,X3 etc. and, assuming that the stupid viewer doesn't apply smoothing, thereby see the detail pixels enlarged upon the monitor screen. Note that the image itself remains unchanged - so what you see is what you got. Amid howls of horror, here is my original virtual mesh shown at 50X, i.e. 5,000% zoom:

Extreme pixel-peeping shows clearly that the mesh detail was perfect in fact. Each original pixel is shown at 50 screen pixels on my monitor, thus screen resolution and sub-pixels become irrelevant. Equally, any lack of detail quality would have become blindingly obvious.

In a recent post, a very nice landscape image had been shot accidentally using Sigma's medium resolution mode. Pixel-peeping at 8X (800%) showed unusual detail artifacts but which the poster said he could not see on his monitor (at 100%, IIRC). Now we know why ...

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Ted

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ChristianHass Veteran Member • Posts: 3,062
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...
1

xpatUSA wrote:

In the above image and in the post view, the virtual mesh looks like a gray square on my monitor. Application of a 10X jeweler's loupe reveals ... a gray square made up of RGB sub-pixels. No prob . . . go to "original size" ... Nope, even viewing with a powerful pocket microscope reveals only a hint of a mesh with very low contrast.

Ah that makes more sense then. On my monitor (4K resolution) it looks like a mesh, both in the post and when I click "original size" so I was wondering what you were trying to show.

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Johan Borg Senior Member • Posts: 2,775
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...
2

xpatUSA wrote:

Scott, I think you're losing it.

Thank you for making a mockery of what was intended to be a serious thread.

In Scott's defense, I honestly thought you showed us a single gray pixel - that was the first impression on my phone. So when you asked how "good" the detail was, I took that as some kind of rhetorical question/joke.

I was wrong, I shouldn't have resisted the urge to pixel peep

FDecker Senior Member • Posts: 1,821
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...

So, you artificially created an object with single pixel resolution just to show that without pixel-peeping the details of this object can‘t be properly seen on a normal monitor or iPad or whatever....?

xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,509
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...

FDecker wrote:

So, you artificially created an object with single pixel resolution just to show that, without pixel-peeping, the details of this object can‘t be properly seen on a normal monitor or iPad or whatever....?

I detect a certain incredulity and a bit of spin:

1) The object has single pixel dimensions, not "resolution".

2) The illustration proves to my satisfaction that the details of ANY object "can‘t be properly seen on a normal monitor or iPad or whatever" - not just "this object". My thread uses "this object" as an example because, being an artificial construct, it avoids the inevitable obfuscation caused by a real image taken with a real lens by a real photographer.

The main point of this thread is to show that pixel-peeping is necessary when one is interested in examining how detail is rendered in an image. Often, 100% doesn't hack it, unless ...

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Ted

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FDecker Senior Member • Posts: 1,821
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...

xpatUSA wrote:

FDecker wrote:

So, you artificially created an object with single pixel resolution just to show that, without pixel-peeping, the details of this object can‘t be properly seen on a normal monitor or iPad or whatever....?

I detect a certain incredulity and a bit of spin:

1) The object has single pixel dimensions, not "resolution".

Because it is a mesh, single pixel dimension also means single pixel resolution, right?

2) The illustration proves to my satisfaction that the details of ANY object "can‘t be properly seen on a normal monitor or iPad or whatever" - not just "this object". My thread uses "this object" as an example because it, being an artificial construct, avoids the inevitable obfuscation caused by a real image taken with a real lens by a real photographer.

The main point of this thread is to show that pixel-peeping is necessary when one is interested in examining how detail is rendered in an image. Often, 100% doesn't hack it, unless ...

Well, if this was your intention, I think you made it clear, obviously.

Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 13,564
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...

Johan Borg wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

Scott, I think you're losing it.

Thank you for making a mockery of what was intended to be a serious thread.

In Scott's defense, I honestly thought you showed us a single gray pixel - that was the first impression on my phone. So when you asked how "good" the detail was, I took that as some kind of rhetorical question/joke.

I was wrong, I shouldn't have resisted the urge to pixel peep

I'm with you Johan. Like you, I didn't get the joke, and I actually thought Ted was joking around, trying to add some humor to the forum. I was just trying to add a little more humor. Obviously those are not my typical posts, and I figured people would see them as funny. I guess not, because only one of them got a like, and it was only a single like.

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Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 13,564
Sorry Ted, I didn't realize you were serious.

xpatUSA wrote:

Scottelly wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

Scottelly wrote:

You said, "radians." Uh, huh huh huh. Huh, huh huh.

Yet another crack from the Forum Seer.

I am reminded of Jake in "Two and a Half Men".

You DO know what a radian is, right?

Uh . . . you said, "See her." Huh huh huh huh.

This is Jordana. She took off her orange dress, so you could see her. Uh, huh huh huh.

Get it Ted? Huh huh huh.

Take a look at THOSE pixels.

Scott, I think you're losing it.

Thank you for making a mockery of what was intended to be a serious thread.

I've unsubscribed.

I really thought you were joking around, and I was just trying to add some more humor.

If you wonder what could have made me think you were joking around, it was this: "No peeping now, y'hear? - but feel free to use a real magnifying glass on your monitor ..."

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Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 13,564
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...

xpatUSA wrote:

FDecker wrote:

So, you artificially created an object with single pixel resolution just to show that, without pixel-peeping, the details of this object can‘t be properly seen on a normal monitor or iPad or whatever....?

I detect a certain incredulity and a bit of spin:

1) The object has single pixel dimensions, not "resolution".

2) The illustration proves to my satisfaction that the details of ANY object "can‘t be properly seen on a normal monitor or iPad or whatever" - not just "this object". My thread uses "this object" as an example because, being an artificial construct, it avoids the inevitable obfuscation caused by a real image taken with a real lens by a real photographer.

The main point of this thread is to show that pixel-peeping is necessary when one is interested in examining how detail is rendered in an image. Often, 100% doesn't hack it, unless ...

Oh . . . now I get it. Thanks for the explanation Ted. Sorry your initial posts went over my head.

So why are you arguing about pixel peeping being necessary?

Do I STILL not get it?

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Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 13,564
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...

ChristianHass wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

In the above image and in the post view, the virtual mesh looks like a gray square on my monitor. Application of a 10X jeweler's loupe reveals ... a gray square made up of RGB sub-pixels. No prob . . . go to "original size" ... Nope, even viewing with a powerful pocket microscope reveals only a hint of a mesh with very low contrast.

Ah that makes more sense then. On my monitor (4K resolution) it looks like a mesh, both in the post and when I click "original size" so I was wondering what you were trying to show.

Have you figured out what Ted is trying to show now? I'm thinking he was trying to show how to see detail you have to pixel-peep. I just don't understand why. Did someone say that pixel peeping isn't necessary to see the finest detail in an image or something?

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xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,509
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...

FDecker wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

FDecker wrote:

So, you artificially created an object with single pixel resolution just to show that, without pixel-peeping, the details of this object can‘t be properly seen on a normal monitor or iPad or whatever....?

I detect a certain incredulity and a bit of spin:

1) The object has single pixel dimensions, not "resolution".

Because it is a mesh, single pixel dimension also means single pixel resolution, right?

OK

2) The illustration proves to my satisfaction that the details of ANY object "can‘t be properly seen on a normal monitor or iPad or whatever" - not just "this object". My thread uses "this object" as an example because it, being an artificial construct, avoids the inevitable obfuscation caused by a real image taken with a real lens by a real photographer.

The main point of this thread is to show that pixel-peeping is necessary when one is interested in examining how detail is rendered in an image. Often, 100% doesn't hack it, unless ...

Well, if this was your intention, I think you made it clear, obviously.

Thank you.

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Ted

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xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,509
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...

Scottelly wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

FDecker wrote:

So, you artificially created an object with single pixel resolution just to show that, without pixel-peeping, the details of this object can‘t be properly seen on a normal monitor or iPad or whatever....?

I detect a certain incredulity and a bit of spin:

1) The object has single pixel dimensions, not "resolution".

2) The illustration proves to my satisfaction that the details of ANY object "can‘t be properly seen on a normal monitor or iPad or whatever" - not just "this object". My thread uses "this object" as an example because, being an artificial construct, it avoids the inevitable obfuscation caused by a real image taken with a real lens by a real photographer.

The main point of this thread is to show that pixel-peeping is necessary when one is interested in examining how detail is rendered in an image. Often, 100% doesn't hack it, unless ...

Oh . . . now I get it. Thanks for the explanation Ted. Sorry your initial posts went over my head.

So why are you arguing about pixel peeping being necessary?

Do I STILL not get it?

As you know, when commenting on an image, I have been known to post zoomed-in illustrations of detail - often when I'm bashing Quattro processing artifacts.

For illustrative purposes only, here's a 100% crop from a nice Merrill landscape posted here by @Ceistinne:

There's some rock detail (circled) which looks fine in this view and quite good in the original view.

But now please view that same detail at X7 (700%):

No need to see the original of this crop, the artifacts are now obvious and cause for concern in a pedantic view.

This thread is aimed directly at those who decry pixel-peeping as if it were somehow "wrong".

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Ted

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Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 13,564
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...

xpatUSA wrote:

Scottelly wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

FDecker wrote:

So, you artificially created an object with single pixel resolution just to show that, without pixel-peeping, the details of this object can‘t be properly seen on a normal monitor or iPad or whatever....?

I detect a certain incredulity and a bit of spin:

1) The object has single pixel dimensions, not "resolution".

2) The illustration proves to my satisfaction that the details of ANY object "can‘t be properly seen on a normal monitor or iPad or whatever" - not just "this object". My thread uses "this object" as an example because, being an artificial construct, it avoids the inevitable obfuscation caused by a real image taken with a real lens by a real photographer.

The main point of this thread is to show that pixel-peeping is necessary when one is interested in examining how detail is rendered in an image. Often, 100% doesn't hack it, unless ...

Oh . . . now I get it. Thanks for the explanation Ted. Sorry your initial posts went over my head.

So why are you arguing about pixel peeping being necessary?

Do I STILL not get it?

As you know, when commenting on an image, I have been known to post zoomed-in illustrations of detail - often when I'm bashing Quattro processing artifacts.

For illustrative purposes only, here's a 100% crop from a nice Merrill landscape posted here by @Ceistinne:

There's some rock detail (circled) which looks fine in this view and quite good in the original view.

But now please view that same detail at X7 (700%):

No need to see the original of this crop, the artifacts are now obvious and cause for concern in a pedantic view.

This thread is aimed directly at those who decry pixel-peeping as if it were somehow "wrong".

Interesting Ted. Do you think the artifacts could be a result of the scaling?

Here's my result from scaling it with Preview:

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xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 15,509
Re: Details, DP2M and Pixel-Peeping ...

Scottelly wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

Scottelly wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

FDecker wrote:

So, you artificially created an object with single pixel resolution just to show that, without pixel-peeping, the details of this object can‘t be properly seen on a normal monitor or iPad or whatever....?

I detect a certain incredulity and a bit of spin:

1) The object has single pixel dimensions, not "resolution".

2) The illustration proves to my satisfaction that the details of ANY object "can‘t be properly seen on a normal monitor or iPad or whatever" - not just "this object". My thread uses "this object" as an example because, being an artificial construct, it avoids the inevitable obfuscation caused by a real image taken with a real lens by a real photographer.

The main point of this thread is to show that pixel-peeping is necessary when one is interested in examining how detail is rendered in an image. Often, 100% doesn't hack it, unless ...

Oh . . . now I get it. Thanks for the explanation Ted. Sorry your initial posts went over my head.

So why are you arguing about pixel peeping being necessary?

Do I STILL not get it?

As you know, when commenting on an image, I have been known to post zoomed-in illustrations of detail - often when I'm bashing Quattro processing artifacts.

For illustrative purposes only, here's a 100% crop from a nice Merrill landscape posted here by @Ceistinne:

There's some rock detail (circled) which looks fine in this view and quite good in the original view.

But now please view that same detail at X7 (700%):

No need to see the original of this crop, the artifacts are now obvious and cause for concern in a pedantic view.

This thread is aimed directly at those who decry pixel-peeping as if it were somehow "wrong".

Interesting Ted. Do you think the artifacts could be a result of the scaling?

No. The scaling was by Nearest Neighbor with no smoothing, just the same as the mesh image.

Here's my result from scaling it with Preview:

I don't know what "Preview" is - but the smoothing that it applied is quite obvious, even in the above post view.

Here's my result from clicking the 'Smooth' checkbox in FastStone Viewer:

Looks quite similar, d'ya think?

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Ted

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