Animal Eye AF

Started 4 months ago | Questions
tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 43,861
Re: Animal Eye AF
2

J A C S wrote:

tbcass wrote:

J A C S wrote:

tbcass wrote:

Now do it while your cat is moving around. While I don't have a camera with animal eye AF to deny that it an extremely useful feature for some people is a very narrow minded point of view.

It would be, I guess, if it can do it. What evidence do you have that the animal eye AF can track a running cat with a precision that just tracking its head, for example, would not be enough?

What evidence do you have that it can't?

A proof by - prove me wrong, even though I did not prove anything. I love it. I have to use it in my work.

What part of hypothetical don't you understand? In this type of discussion claiming a feature does not work without proof is the same as claiming it does work without proof. I am claiming neither because it's an unknown. Until we see actual results from testers any discussion of how well it will work on existing cameras is an unknown. Human eye AF has improved to the point where it is very accurate. If not right away we can expect animal eye AF to achieve the same level eventually.

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jshen808
jshen808 Forum Pro • Posts: 10,768
Re: Speed of acquisition

golfhov wrote:

For starters

For compatabile subjects it isolates the eyes too. Anybody who has worked extensively with various larger dog breeds knows/nose at close distances their snout can be problematic and cause bad misses even stopped down a little

This is something you may know if you had used it.......

..this is not a dog or cat, it's something else..

..using my D850 with face-detection "enabled"..

..D850, sooc jpeg.. (face-detection enabled)

..Cheers, John..

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golfhov Forum Pro • Posts: 10,815
Re: Ignorance is bliss
1

J A C S wrote:

golfhov wrote:

There are users who are actually finding this DOES change the way they shoot. It's just another tool in the bag. Use it or not.

I guess there are. They are hiding pretty well though.

Even on the Sony FE forum this isn't a popular feature. Conversations come up every few weeks about it though.

I do love that you haven't used it and you are one of the most vocal about it's usefulness

I am not.

Yes. You and Max have called it useless. Among others.

I am just calling your buffs.

I started just trying to answer the OPs question. Fairly, and based on my experience and those experiences I have read. Of people ACTUALLY using it. That isn't a "buff"

I am ready to be convinced that it is useful, and so far, I just heard that a few people deeply believe that it would be.

Cause this endless pedantic arguing is tiresome. Instead of just answering the OP(which I think I did fairly) I am responding to a bunch of naysayers posting pictures of still and sleeping animals who are just brand bashing as they have no exposure to the feature.

On "animals it can identify" it locks(much faster than most Humans can, especially if the subject is moving) and tracks very well. Whether that is "useful" will vary by user

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golfhov Forum Pro • Posts: 10,815
Re: Speed of acquisition

jshen808 wrote:

golfhov wrote:

For starters

For compatabile subjects it isolates the eyes too. Anybody who has worked extensively with various larger dog breeds knows/nose at close distances their snout can be problematic and cause bad misses even stopped down a little

This is something you may know if you had used it.......

..this is not a dog or cat or something else..

..using my D850 with face-detection enabled..

..D850, sooc jpeg.. (face-detection enabled)

..Cheers, John..

Uh......he is posing for you hardly a challenge. If your D850 called that a face I would hate to see how many false positives you get. I guess that is why the Z series starts locking onto random objects

Posting that pic is a bit like my experiences with my black lab. SOMETIMES the ham eye detect would see a face and lock in. It wasn't predictable or dependable so saying that Sony HAD animal eye af before they did would be disingenuous

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jshen808
jshen808 Forum Pro • Posts: 10,768
Re: Speed of acquisition

golfhov wrote:

jshen808 wrote:

golfhov wrote:

For starters

For compatabile subjects it isolates the eyes too. Anybody who has worked extensively with various larger dog breeds knows/nose at close distances their snout can be problematic and cause bad misses even stopped down a little

This is something you may know if you had used it.......

..this is not a dog or cat or something else..

..using my D850 with face-detection enabled..

..D850, sooc jpeg.. (face-detection enabled)

..Cheers, John..

Uh......he is posing for you hardly a challenge. If your D850 called that a face I would hate to see how many false positives you get. I guess that is why the Z series starts locking onto random objects

Posting that pic is a bit like my experiences with my black lab. SOMETIMES the ham eye detect would see a face and lock in. It wasn't predictable or dependable so saying that Sony HAD animal eye af before they did would be disingenuous

..it took me about 2 seconds to take this picture..

..as there are other photographers in the waiting..

..completely took advantage of the D850 "face-detection" feature to NOT have the auto-focus on the tip of the fake gun instead of the "eyes"..

..Cheers, John..

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J A C S
J A C S Forum Pro • Posts: 15,060
Re: Animal Eye AF

tbcass wrote:

J A C S wrote:

tbcass wrote:

J A C S wrote:

tbcass wrote:

Now do it while your cat is moving around. While I don't have a camera with animal eye AF to deny that it an extremely useful feature for some people is a very narrow minded point of view.

It would be, I guess, if it can do it. What evidence do you have that the animal eye AF can track a running cat with a precision that just tracking its head, for example, would not be enough?

What evidence do you have that it can't?

A proof by - prove me wrong, even though I did not prove anything. I love it. I have to use it in my work.

What part of hypothetical don't you understand? In this type of discussion claiming a feature does not work without proof is the same as claiming it does work without proof.

Except that I did not claim it did not work. I asked for evidence that it does.

I am claiming neither because it's an unknown. Until we see actual results from testers any discussion of how well it will work on existing cameras is an unknown. Human eye AF has improved to the point where it is very accurate. If not right away we can expect animal eye AF to achieve the same level eventually.

You should see me running next to a cat. Guess who wins.

golfhov Forum Pro • Posts: 10,815
two second is not fast
1

jshen808 wrote:

golfhov wrote:

jshen808 wrote:

golfhov wrote:

For starters

For compatabile subjects it isolates the eyes too. Anybody who has worked extensively with various larger dog breeds knows/nose at close distances their snout can be problematic and cause bad misses even stopped down a little

This is something you may know if you had used it.......

..this is not a dog or cat or something else..

..using my D850 with face-detection enabled..

..D850, sooc jpeg.. (face-detection enabled)

..Cheers, John..

Uh......he is posing for you hardly a challenge. If your D850 called that a face I would hate to see how many false positives you get. I guess that is why the Z series starts locking onto random objects

Posting that pic is a bit like my experiences with my black lab. SOMETIMES the ham eye detect would see a face and lock in. It wasn't predictable or dependable so saying that Sony HAD animal eye af before they did would be disingenuous

..it took me about 2 seconds to take this picture..

..as there are other photographers in the waiting..

..completely took advantage of the D850 "face-detection" feature to NOT have the auto-focus on the tip of the fake gun instead of the "eyes"..

I still don't know what you are bragging about...........

it isn't shallow DOF (55 f4) and it isn't a fast subject.  This is a pic I could have taken with my 6d just as quickly

If your point was to show off how useless another feature is you failed. You only showcased that a feature is "useless for you" or that you are not very knowledgeable on the subject

..Cheers, John..

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J A C S
J A C S Forum Pro • Posts: 15,060
Re: Ignorance is bliss

golfhov wrote:

J A C S wrote:

golfhov wrote:

There are users who are actually finding this DOES change the way they shoot. It's just another tool in the bag. Use it or not.

I guess there are. They are hiding pretty well though.

Even on the Sony FE forum this isn't a popular feature. Conversations come up every few weeks about it though.

I do love that you haven't used it and you are one of the most vocal about it's usefulness

I am not.

Yes. You and Max have called it useless. Among others.

Where (I did)? You are confusing me with somebody else.

I am just calling your buffs.

I started just trying to answer the OPs question. Fairly, and based on my experience and those experiences I have read. Of people ACTUALLY using it. That isn't a "buff"

You are right, it is not a buff, it is a bluff.

I am ready to be convinced that it is useful, and so far, I just heard that a few people deeply believe that it would be.

Cause this endless pedantic arguing is tiresome. Instead of just answering the OP(which I think I did fairly) I am responding to a bunch of naysayers posting pictures of still and sleeping animals who are just brand bashing as they have no exposure to the feature.

Right, nobody took a picture of a running dog before.

On "animals it can identify" it locks(much faster than most Humans can, especially if the subject is moving) and tracks very well. Whether that is "useful" will vary by user

Evidence?

J A C S
J A C S Forum Pro • Posts: 15,060
Re: Speed of acquisition
1

jshen808 wrote:

golfhov wrote:

jshen808 wrote:

golfhov wrote:

For starters

For compatabile subjects it isolates the eyes too. Anybody who has worked extensively with various larger dog breeds knows/nose at close distances their snout can be problematic and cause bad misses even stopped down a little

This is something you may know if you had used it.......

..this is not a dog or cat or something else..

..using my D850 with face-detection enabled..

..D850, sooc jpeg.. (face-detection enabled)

..Cheers, John..

Uh......he is posing for you hardly a challenge. If your D850 called that a face I would hate to see how many false positives you get. I guess that is why the Z series starts locking onto random objects

Posting that pic is a bit like my experiences with my black lab. SOMETIMES the ham eye detect would see a face and lock in. It wasn't predictable or dependable so saying that Sony HAD animal eye af before they did would be disingenuous

..it took me about 2 seconds to take this picture..

So long? I could have taken this with a 350D for a fraction of a second. Center AF, point and shoot.

..as there are other photographers in the waiting..

..completely took advantage of the D850 "face-detection" feature to NOT have the auto-focus on the tip of the fake gun instead of the "eyes"..

..Cheers, John..

jshen808
jshen808 Forum Pro • Posts: 10,768
Re: two second is not fast

golfhov wrote:

jshen808 wrote:

golfhov wrote:

jshen808 wrote:

golfhov wrote:

For starters

For compatabile subjects it isolates the eyes too. Anybody who has worked extensively with various larger dog breeds knows/nose at close distances their snout can be problematic and cause bad misses even stopped down a little

This is something you may know if you had used it.......

..this is not a dog or cat or something else..

..using my D850 with face-detection enabled..

..D850, sooc jpeg.. (face-detection enabled)

..Cheers, John..

Uh......he is posing for you hardly a challenge. If your D850 called that a face I would hate to see how many false positives you get. I guess that is why the Z series starts locking onto random objects

Posting that pic is a bit like my experiences with my black lab. SOMETIMES the ham eye detect would see a face and lock in. It wasn't predictable or dependable so saying that Sony HAD animal eye af before they did would be disingenuous

..it took me about 2 seconds to take this picture..

..as there are other photographers in the waiting..

..completely took advantage of the D850 "face-detection" feature to NOT have the auto-focus on the tip of the fake gun instead of the "eyes"..

I still don't know what you are bragging about...........

it isn't shallow DOF (55 f4) and it isn't a fast subject. This is a pic I could have taken with my 6d just as quickly

If your point was to show off how useless another feature is you failed. You only showcased that a feature is "useless for you" or that you are not very knowledgeable on the subject

..Cheers, John..

..To each their's own..

..I thought we were talking about the camera's ability to auto eye focus..

..I never downplayed your 6D or someone elses D3 cameras ability to focus on the eyes with the right person behind the wheels..

..the Nikon's face-detection feature (on the D5, D850, D500, D7500) can work well, whether a dog is sitting or running..

..I really don't understand "why" you are getting all uptight about..

..as my response was in support of your statement about larger dogs with their noses can be "problematic"..

..Cheers, John..

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jshen808
jshen808 Forum Pro • Posts: 10,768
Re: Speed of acquisition
1

J A C S wrote:

jshen808 wrote:

golfhov wrote:

jshen808 wrote:

golfhov wrote:

For starters

For compatabile subjects it isolates the eyes too. Anybody who has worked extensively with various larger dog breeds knows/nose at close distances their snout can be problematic and cause bad misses even stopped down a little

This is something you may know if you had used it.......

..this is not a dog or cat or something else..

..using my D850 with face-detection enabled..

..D850, sooc jpeg.. (face-detection enabled)

..Cheers, John..

Uh......he is posing for you hardly a challenge. If your D850 called that a face I would hate to see how many false positives you get. I guess that is why the Z series starts locking onto random objects

Posting that pic is a bit like my experiences with my black lab. SOMETIMES the ham eye detect would see a face and lock in. It wasn't predictable or dependable so saying that Sony HAD animal eye af before they did would be disingenuous

..it took me about 2 seconds to take this picture..

So long? I could have taken this with a 350D for a fraction of a second. Center AF, point and shoot.

..as there are other photographers in the waiting..

..completely took advantage of the D850 "face-detection" feature to NOT have the auto-focus on the tip of the fake gun instead of the "eyes"..

..Cheers, John..

..**Sigh**..

..again, I thought this "thread" is about the cameras ability to "auto-eye focus"..

..and NOT about each person's ability to use their cameras effectively..

..Cheers, John..

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golfhov Forum Pro • Posts: 10,815
feel free to research more
1

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62594419

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62608955

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62607359

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62591700

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62587339

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62927634

nothing cherry picked and a whole range of posts and discussions on the subject. Almost mirroring what I said in my very first post here. IT works BUT it isn't nearly as refined as the human eye af.

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golfhov Forum Pro • Posts: 10,815
all ears
1

if nikon face detect reliably and consistently tracks pups faces correctly color me impressed. I am least versed in Nikon so some corroberation would be nice.

I have seen plenty of similar claims about how both Canon and Nikon face detect focus on the eyes but the examples never backup the claim. SOME of the shots will hit the eye but most are a bit off or deep enough that miss isn't detected

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J A C S
J A C S Forum Pro • Posts: 15,060
Re: feel free to research more

golfhov wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62594419

A clearly front focused soft 1.8mp photo.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62608955

Good examples. The cat is not exactly running though...

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62607359

Nice but the cat is almost asleep.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62591700

Those are good but #2 looks front-focused. Hard to say at 1.1mp. No running cats or dogs though.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62587339

Finally a running animal. #1 is exactly what we are talking about and it seems that the focus has been nailed. #2 is questionable, and again, 1.1mp.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62927634

No pictures, expressing mixed feelings.

nothing cherry picked and a whole range of posts and discussions on the subject. Almost mirroring what I said in my very first post here. IT works BUT it isn't nearly as refined as the human eye af.

This is where the discussion should have started.

ZX11
ZX11 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,880
Re: Animal Eye AF

J A C S wrote:

tbcass wrote:

J A C S wrote:

tbcass wrote:

J A C S wrote:

tbcass wrote:

Now do it while your cat is moving around. While I don't have a camera with animal eye AF to deny that it an extremely useful feature for some people is a very narrow minded point of view.

It would be, I guess, if it can do it. What evidence do you have that the animal eye AF can track a running cat with a precision that just tracking its head, for example, would not be enough?

What evidence do you have that it can't?

A proof by - prove me wrong, even though I did not prove anything. I love it. I have to use it in my work.

What part of hypothetical don't you understand? In this type of discussion claiming a feature does not work without proof is the same as claiming it does work without proof.

Except that I did not claim it did not work. I asked for evidence that it does.

I am claiming neither because it's an unknown. Until we see actual results from testers any discussion of how well it will work on existing cameras is an unknown. Human eye AF has improved to the point where it is very accurate. If not right away we can expect animal eye AF to achieve the same level eventually.

You should see me running next to a cat. Guess who wins.

I would like to see photos that Sony's animal eye detect improved on or made possible where before it wasn't possible.

Perhaps the camera on auto fire each second and detect the eye would get a great shot.  But our dog won't let you pull ahead of her, for a better face shot, and that is as fast as I can run.

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J A C S
J A C S Forum Pro • Posts: 15,060
Re: all ears

golfhov wrote:

I have seen plenty of similar claims about how both Canon and Nikon face detect focus on the eyes but the examples never backup the claim.

In my gallery, some are taken while I was moving. Works on real people, too.

ZX11
ZX11 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,880
Re: feel free to research more

J A C S wrote:

golfhov wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62594419

A clearly front focused soft 1.8mp photo.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62608955

Good examples. The cat is not exactly running though...

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62607359

Nice but the cat is almost asleep.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62591700

Those are good but #2 looks front-focused. Hard to say at 1.1mp. No running cats or dogs though.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62587339

Finally a running animal. #1 is exactly what we are talking about and it seems that the focus has been nailed. #2 is questionable, and again, 1.1mp.

The running dog looks like a use case.  But unless it has odd framing, where the focus point had to dart around the frame, faster than a human could move it, normal methods of catching the running dog in focus would work fine.  Put the AF point on the dog and fire once or continuous?

Asking if Sony's animal eye focus is just a gimmick means they want the right answers and opinions only?

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golfhov Forum Pro • Posts: 10,815
Re: feel free to research more
1

J A C S wrote:

golfhov wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62594419

A clearly front focused soft 1.8mp photo.

look through his linked gallery. I don't know if that is front focus, wrong eye, movement from the pan. I do remember that one and his example provided was his worst one. There is a link to a gallery full of shots

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62608955

Good examples. The cat is not exactly running though...

but is that the one where he gave the camera to his young daughter? That one is an example of how simple it is and some of those poses I don't know how long the cat stayed that way. It is a cat......

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62607359

Nice but the cat is almost asleep.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62591700

Those are good but #2 looks front-focused. Hard to say at 1.1mp. No running cats or dogs though.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62587339

Finally a running animal. #1 is exactly what we are talking about and it seems that the focus has been nailed. #2 is questionable, and again, 1.1mp.

didn't look at that one

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62927634

No pictures, expressing mixed feelings.

in addition to the SINGLE link there are expounded comments by multiple users in those threads

nothing cherry picked and a whole range of posts and discussions on the subject. Almost mirroring what I said in my very first post here. IT works BUT it isn't nearly as refined as the human eye af.

This is where the discussion should have started.

it could have. Had you not been dismissive from the start. It is hard to accurately answer the OP because calling it a "gimmick" is a bit much while calling it absolutely necessary would be a bit much. That is why I just browsed through and linked a bunch of different conversations on the subject.

In a way it is a lot like the early versions of human continuous eye af. IT absolutely "works" but it isn't nearly as smart as the newest versions of human eye af. Some animals and breeds work better than others and I don't know that I have even seen a detailed discussion of the feature on the a9 which is noticeably faster at tracking when fractions count

You can use your time more wisely to search the dozens of discussions on the various sony boards about this feature if you actually want to learn more. It just is what it is

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jshen808
jshen808 Forum Pro • Posts: 10,768
Re: all ears

golfhov wrote:

if nikon face detect reliably and consistently tracks pups faces correctly color me impressed. I am least versed in Nikon so some corroberation would be nice.

I have seen plenty of similar claims about how both Canon and Nikon face detect focus on the eyes but the examples never backup the claim. SOME of the shots will hit the eye but most are a bit off or deep enough that miss isn't detected

..Sorry, I'm not able to find the previously posted threads of others..

..have seen examples of using their D500 camera with the face-detection enabled..

..and took pictures of running dogs during competitions..

..and also taking pictures of people on their bikes during bicycle races..

..there's limitations in all equipments..

..so having some hiccups is expected..

..the whole premise of posting here, is because the OP stated that neither the Canon or Nikon have features of auto-eye focus for animals..

..at least on my part, I'm stating that Nikon already have the feature & ability to auto-eye focus of animals in the D5 D850 D500 D7500 cameras..

..someone else will need to speak up for the Canon cameras..

..Cheers, John..

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golfhov Forum Pro • Posts: 10,815
Re: feel free to research more
1

ZX11 wrote:

J A C S wrote:

golfhov wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62594419

A clearly front focused soft 1.8mp photo.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62608955

Good examples. The cat is not exactly running though...

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62607359

Nice but the cat is almost asleep.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62591700

Those are good but #2 looks front-focused. Hard to say at 1.1mp. No running cats or dogs though.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62587339

Finally a running animal. #1 is exactly what we are talking about and it seems that the focus has been nailed. #2 is questionable, and again, 1.1mp.

The running dog looks like a use case. But unless it has odd framing, where the focus point had to dart around the frame, faster than a human could move it, normal methods of catching the running dog in focus would work fine. Put the AF point on the dog and fire once or continuous?

thats just it. The discussions are from multiple users and different dogs and scenarios. Mostly the slightly slower a7iii and a7riv. I don't know that I have seen the a9 discussed with this

Asking if Sony's animal eye focus is just a gimmick means they want the right answers and opinions only?

My understanding is that they are asking if "it works" . In that case the answer is a definite "yes" but it needs clarified. If you think you are going to nail a greyhound chasing a squirrel around the yard a few feet from you at 1.4 the system will struggle. PArtly because the erratic nature of the movement the algroythms MAY struggle to find the face. Partly because of practical limitations of the bodies most people are using. Now if our pet is "seen breed"* and the camera has any sort of view of the face you stand a good chance of the shot

I revert back to my very first statement

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