Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?

Started 4 months ago | Polls
tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 43,861
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?
1

mamallama wrote:

tbcass wrote:

Fregoli wrote:

And yes, smartphone users want all that too.

So no, while some would very much wish to indulge the wishful thought that smartphone photography R&D will peter out and evaporate like a bad dream, the reality will be anything but that.

I don't want smartphone R&D to peter out. I still say that the vast majority of smartphone users find the cameras of their phones just fine the way they are and more features and R&D into the cameras will do little if anything to spur sales. When that happens R&D will go into other things besides the camera.

These smartphone companies got R&D money to burn. So don't expect R&D into smartphone cameras to stop.

You don't know that and if true you have no idea they will not diverte R&D to other areas of smartphone tech. The only reason smartphones are sold is to produce profits. If cameras in phones no longer contribute to those profits, camera improvements will stall.

-- hide signature --

Tom

 tbcass's gear list:tbcass's gear list
Sony RX100 Sony RX10 IV Sony a99 II Tamron SP AF 90mm F/2.8 Di Macro Sony DT 35mm F1.8 SAM +10 more
sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 15,321
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?

Fregoli wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

Fregoli wrote:

Excellent post, yet again.

It seems that some others see smartphones as such an existential threat that they have lost all semblance of objectivity.

The fact is that, as you astutely observe, computational photography is very much in its infancy. To issue bold pronouncements that users of fast glass will have no interest in it is to underestimate its tremendous growth potential in the years ahead.

No, nobody feels threatened. These days, most shooting I do is with my cellphone. Amazingly, when I pick up my A7R2, it still works great! I, like many, like having options.

It's the constant deluge of fallacies and lies from smartphone zealots like you and mammallama. No, computational photography is not in its infancy. It's as old as digital photography. My D40 from 2005 had in body DRO. My 2012 NEX-C3 had multi-shot noise reduction and sweep panorama mode

You think that's computational? That's like calling a typewriter high tech.

Sorry, what today's smartphones are doing dwarfs what your NEX-C3 did in 2012.

You can call the abacus a calculator, but it's no TI-89.

You don't get to decide what is or isn't computational.

-- hide signature --

Sometimes I take pictures with my gear- https://www.flickr.com/photos/41601371@N00/

 sportyaccordy's gear list:sportyaccordy's gear list
NEX-5T Sony a7R II Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Canon EF 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 USM Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II +6 more
Jonsi
Jonsi Veteran Member • Posts: 4,482
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?
2

tbcass wrote:

mamallama wrote:

tbcass wrote:

Fregoli wrote:

And yes, smartphone users want all that too.

So no, while some would very much wish to indulge the wishful thought that smartphone photography R&D will peter out and evaporate like a bad dream, the reality will be anything but that.

I don't want smartphone R&D to peter out. I still say that the vast majority of smartphone users find the cameras of their phones just fine the way they are and more features and R&D into the cameras will do little if anything to spur sales. When that happens R&D will go into other things besides the camera.

These smartphone companies got R&D money to burn. So don't expect R&D into smartphone cameras to stop.

You don't know that and if true you have no idea they will not diverte R&D to other areas of smartphone tech. The only reason smartphones are sold is to produce profits. If cameras in phones no longer contribute to those profits, camera improvements will stall.

I don't understand people who are so obsessed with a cause, such as phones taking down the camera business, that they will constantly spew so much hyperbole and conjecture.  So many claims, with so little fact.

It's like they need this to happen.

No different than the ML users hoping like hell that DSLRs vanish. All for the "see, I told you".

sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 15,321
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?

tbcass wrote:

mamallama wrote:

tbcass wrote:

Fregoli wrote:

And yes, smartphone users want all that too.

So no, while some would very much wish to indulge the wishful thought that smartphone photography R&D will peter out and evaporate like a bad dream, the reality will be anything but that.

I don't want smartphone R&D to peter out. I still say that the vast majority of smartphone users find the cameras of their phones just fine the way they are and more features and R&D into the cameras will do little if anything to spur sales. When that happens R&D will go into other things besides the camera.

These smartphone companies got R&D money to burn. So don't expect R&D into smartphone cameras to stop.

You don't know that and if true you have no idea they will not diverte R&D to other areas of smartphone tech. The only reason smartphones are sold is to produce profits. If cameras in phones no longer contribute to those profits, camera improvements will stall.

Cameras are the main if not only reason people are upgrading their phones these days, which is why phone companies are pouring so much R&D money into them.  Performance otherwise is more than good enough and has been for years.

I get it- you hate cameraphones and want them to go away. But don't confuse your wishes with facts. Even if cell phone sales cut in half, that's still a hundred million iPhones and 500 million phones in total- orders of magnitude higher than the 5-6 million or so ILC sales the industry will probably settle at. If you really think people are going to stop taking pictures with phones you're either crazy or completely clueless.

-- hide signature --

Sometimes I take pictures with my gear- https://www.flickr.com/photos/41601371@N00/

 sportyaccordy's gear list:sportyaccordy's gear list
NEX-5T Sony a7R II Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Canon EF 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 USM Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II +6 more
Mackiesback
Mackiesback Senior Member • Posts: 6,995
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?
2

Jonsi wrote:

tbcass wrote:

mamallama wrote:

tbcass wrote:

Fregoli wrote:

And yes, smartphone users want all that too.

So no, while some would very much wish to indulge the wishful thought that smartphone photography R&D will peter out and evaporate like a bad dream, the reality will be anything but that.

I don't want smartphone R&D to peter out. I still say that the vast majority of smartphone users find the cameras of their phones just fine the way they are and more features and R&D into the cameras will do little if anything to spur sales. When that happens R&D will go into other things besides the camera.

These smartphone companies got R&D money to burn. So don't expect R&D into smartphone cameras to stop.

You don't know that and if true you have no idea they will not diverte R&D to other areas of smartphone tech. The only reason smartphones are sold is to produce profits. If cameras in phones no longer contribute to those profits, camera improvements will stall.

I don't understand people who are so obsessed with a cause, such as phones taking down the camera business, that they will constantly spew so much hyperbole and conjecture. So many claims, with so little fact.

It's like they need this to happen.

No different than the ML users hoping like hell that DSLRs vanish. All for the "see, I told you".

So true. I have never understood the zealotry. They literally have zero stake in the issues they argue endlessly about, other than winning the argument. They can't seem to grasp that nobody cares what they think.

 Mackiesback's gear list:Mackiesback's gear list
Nikon Coolpix A Nikon D50 Nikon D100 Nikon Df Nikon Z6 +17 more
lunartown Senior Member • Posts: 1,564
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?

Jonsi wrote:

mamallama wrote:

Jonsi wrote:

mamallama wrote:

tbcass wrote:

You and others always emphasize that smartphone photography is good enough for the vast majority of the population. The problem with all this is the vast majority of phone users are happy with the photographs their phones produce now so all this computational photography won't spur phone sales, which are in decline, enough to matter. Because of that research into improving phone photography will stall.

As I said in another post, these smartphone companies got R&D money to burn, particularly Apple. So don't expect R&D into smartphone cameras to stop. They have their sights beyond today's smartphone cameras. They are a predatory company and see bigger mountains to climb. That is what is frightening some camera companies.

You repeat these things a lot but do you have any evidence at all of the camera manufacturers saying they are frightened of phone companies and their "bigger mountains"...?

Why do you think Leica has restructured to form a group to hire a team of software photography experts? That, to me is evidence that they are concerned they need to shift gears.

So Leica's interest in software means "camera companies are frightened of phone companies".

"frightened" maybe or maybe not, but my guess is that heads of "camera companies" are aware that almost all types of news, messaging and also photos are moving towards Internet based social medias and as part of that there is a change away from photo albums and high quality photos towards snap-view-forget-next in photography, all which for now seems to be phone playground. If the management of "camera companies" don't pay any attention to that or do not think that into the near future of their business then they are imho failing big time.
Dedicated GPS and PDA devices has become phone apps, it is just the easy solution to use your phone, phones may or may not take over in the same way in photography, but "camera companies" should give it a thought.

It's all just the usual hyperbole then ?

More a guess that "phones" are a topic in current SWOT analysis if you are a "camera company", both as "O" and "T". Just a "guess" no more no less.

Of course.

-- hide signature --

.... really, matter of fact it's all dark.

tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 43,861
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?

Jonsi wrote:

I don't understand people who are so obsessed with a cause, such as phones taking down the camera business, that they will constantly spew so much hyperbole and conjecture. So many claims, with so little fact.

It's like they need this to happen.

No different than the ML users hoping like hell that DSLRs vanish. All for the "see, I told you".

You are correct and the reason for such obsessions could be a good research topic. I think that it's about tribalism and a need to attack anything that's different from what they have or the group they belong to. Rooting for sports teams, joining fraternities, Political and religious zealotry are all in the same category.

-- hide signature --

Tom

 tbcass's gear list:tbcass's gear list
Sony RX100 Sony RX10 IV Sony a99 II Tamron SP AF 90mm F/2.8 Di Macro Sony DT 35mm F1.8 SAM +10 more
Smaug01
Smaug01 Senior Member • Posts: 2,820
The only fast lenses I buy are primes

...and even those, I'm good with one or two.

The slow lenses these days are very good, especially in combination with the in-body image stabilization. I regret not having a fast zoom occasionally, but never enough that I could justify the cash outlay and glass weight in my bag.

The exception is with smaller sensored cameras. My Pentax MX-1 has a fast zoom (eq. 28-112 f/1.8-2.4 IIRC)  My FZ1000 has a fast zoom. (eq. 25-400 f/2.8-4)

-- hide signature --

-Jeremy
*********
"Rudeness is the weak person's imitation of strength."

 Smaug01's gear list:Smaug01's gear list
Pentax MX-1 Panasonic FZ1000 Panasonic Lumix DMC-TS30 Olympus OM-D E-M10 III Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm F4-5.6 R +16 more
tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 43,861
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?

sportyaccordy wrote:

Cameras are the main if not only reason people are upgrading their phones these days, which is why phone companies are pouring so much R&D money into them. Performance otherwise is more than good enough and has been for years.

I do not believe that is true and you don't know that either. In fact what I see is just the opposite, The vast majority are casual photographers and care little about the quality of their camera phones. They find they are good enough now.

Camera phone advocates constantly declare that the camera phones as they exist are good enough for the vast majority of the population and then turn around and say it's the driving force behind sales. You can't have it both ways.

I get it- you hate camera phones and want them to go away. But don't confuse your wishes with facts. Even if cell phone sales cut in half, that's still a hundred million iPhones and 500 million phones in total- orders of magnitude higher than the 5-6 million or so ILC sales the industry will probably settle at. If you really think people are going to stop taking pictures with phones you're either crazy or completely clueless.

Why would I want camera phones to go away? I find mine very useful for many things, use it all the time, find it good for what I use it for and wouldn't buy a phone without one. I will not delude myself into believing they will ever be anywhere near as good as my dedicated cameras.

It's amusing the way you are attempting to deflect the discussion to something that is totally irrelevant to the discussion like some politician who doesn't have a good argument.

-- hide signature --

Tom

 tbcass's gear list:tbcass's gear list
Sony RX100 Sony RX10 IV Sony a99 II Tamron SP AF 90mm F/2.8 Di Macro Sony DT 35mm F1.8 SAM +10 more
Michael Fryd
Michael Fryd Forum Pro • Posts: 11,746
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?
2

sportyaccordy wrote:

...

Cameras are the main if not only reason people are upgrading their phones these days, which is why phone companies are pouring so much R&D money into them. Performance otherwise is more than good enough and has been for years.

Do you have a source for this claim?

Off hand, none of my friends who have upgraded their smartphones have done so in order to get a better camera.

While a better camera is certainly one reason for upgrading a smart phone, it is not the only reason.

Newer smart phones have

  • Faster network connections
  • Faster processors for better gaming experience
  • Bigger screens
  • Better and easier security (i.e. fingerprint sensors or face ID)
  • More storage
  • Better battery life
  • Better cameras
  • etc.

While it may be true that better cameras are the primary reason most people upgrade, I would be surprised if that's the case.

My guess would be that most people upgrade because their old phone broke, or no longer seems to work well.  The vast array of new features make the high price easier to tolerate.

Remember, not all smart phones have the same camera systems.  If cameras really were the primary force in phone sales, we wouldn't expect to see very many sales in any model that didn't have the latest and greatest camera.

I get it- you hate cameraphones and want them to go away. But don't confuse your wishes with facts. Even if cell phone sales cut in half, that's still a hundred million iPhones and 500 million phones in total- orders of magnitude higher than the 5-6 million or so ILC sales the industry will probably settle at. If you really think people are going to stop taking pictures with phones you're either crazy or completely clueless.

I don't think we have heard from any one who hates cell phone cameras, although there have been some accusations of that.

The modern smartphone has placed a capable camera into the pocket of the average consumer.   This has pretty much eliminated the market for low end, stand alone,  consumer cameras.

What is left is the market for high end cameras.  This market is looking for more functionality than a smartphone can provide.    Physics tells us that larger sensors generally have a larger shooting envelope than smaller sensors.  That gives an advantage to larger cameras.

It is certainly true that computational photography makes it possible to get images from smartphones that were not possible in the past.  Keep in mind that "a rising tide raises all ships".   Computational photography is also applicable to larger cameras, and can produce even more amazing results when starting with better data.

The smartphone market will continue to grow, as it becomes capable of filling in additional segments of consumer demand.  However, there will always be some sort of specialty market for higher end cameras that can do tasks the typical consumer just doesn't need.

 Michael Fryd's gear list:Michael Fryd's gear list
Nikon Coolpix AW130 Canon EOS D60 Canon EOS 7D Mark II Canon EOS 5DS Canon EOS 5D Mark IV +16 more
Jonsi
Jonsi Veteran Member • Posts: 4,482
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?

Michael Fryd wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

...

Cameras are the main if not only reason people are upgrading their phones these days, which is why phone companies are pouring so much R&D money into them. Performance otherwise is more than good enough and has been for years.

Do you have a source for this claim?

Off hand, none of my friends who have upgraded their smartphones have done so in order to get a better camera.

While a better camera is certainly one reason for upgrading a smart phone, it is not the only reason.

Newer smart phones have

  • Faster network connections
  • Faster processors for better gaming experience
  • Bigger screens
  • Better and easier security (i.e. fingerprint sensors or face ID)
  • More storage
  • Better battery life
  • Better cameras
  • etc.

While it may be true that better cameras are the primary reason most people upgrade, I would be surprised if that's the case.

I read an article that said the only upgrades are minor increases in performance (your list above), and cameras, and that's the reason phone sales are dropping.  Minimal upgrades combined with long-lasting quality.  People just aren't excited about new phones.

And when you see their commercials, what is the focus?  Most of the time it's the camera.

My guess would be that most people upgrade because their old phone broke, or no longer seems to work well.

Correct.

Even the cameras aren't exciting enough to upgrade for.

The vast array of new features make the high price easier to tolerate.

Yet they still aren't selling all that well.

sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 15,321
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?

tbcass wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

Cameras are the main if not only reason people are upgrading their phones these days, which is why phone companies are pouring so much R&D money into them. Performance otherwise is more than good enough and has been for years.

I do not believe that is true and you don't know that either. In fact what I see is just the opposite, The vast majority are casual photographers and care little about the quality of their camera phones. They find they are good enough now.

Of course it's true. If casual smartphone users don't care about the cameras, why are phone companies spending so much effort and money to upgrade them? Why do phone review sites have in depth sections on the cameras, testing IQ and performance? Why are websites like DPR and DxO increasingly covering and reviewing phone cameras? Seems like a lot of effort for something nobody cares about.

Camera phone advocates constantly declare that the camera phones as they exist are good enough for the vast majority of the population and then turn around and say it's the driving force behind sales. You can't have it both ways.

Yes, for SOME phone users, existing phones are good enough. For SOME, they want more, and are large enough in number that it's warranted investment by phone makers, and increased coverage by photography and tech sites. Phone users, like camera users, or any group of people, are not a monolith moving and thinking in lockstep.

I get it- you hate camera phones and want them to go away. But don't confuse your wishes with facts. Even if cell phone sales cut in half, that's still a hundred million iPhones and 500 million phones in total- orders of magnitude higher than the 5-6 million or so ILC sales the industry will probably settle at. If you really think people are going to stop taking pictures with phones you're either crazy or completely clueless.

Why would I want camera phones to go away? I find mine very useful for many things, use it all the time, find it good for what I use it for and wouldn't buy a phone without one. I will not delude myself into believing they will ever be anywhere near as good as my dedicated cameras.

I have never claimed them to be comparable to dedicated cameras; quite the opposite actually. But your implication that only dedicated camera users care about camera IQ is flat out wrong.

It's amusing the way you are attempting to deflect the discussion to something that is totally irrelevant to the discussion like some politician who doesn't have a good argument.

I didn't bring up phones, AOC did... and as always, YOU were all to eager to follow him on said deflection.

-- hide signature --

Sometimes I take pictures with my gear- https://www.flickr.com/photos/41601371@N00/

 sportyaccordy's gear list:sportyaccordy's gear list
NEX-5T Sony a7R II Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Canon EF 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 USM Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II +6 more
sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 15,321
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?

Michael Fryd wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

...

Cameras are the main if not only reason people are upgrading their phones these days, which is why phone companies are pouring so much R&D money into them. Performance otherwise is more than good enough and has been for years.

Do you have a source for this claim?

Off hand, none of my friends who have upgraded their smartphones have done so in order to get a better camera.

While a better camera is certainly one reason for upgrading a smart phone, it is not the only reason.

Well I know people who have upgraded phones just to get better cameras. That's the problem with anecdotes.

Newer smart phones have

  • Faster network connections
  • Faster processors for better gaming experience
  • Bigger screens
  • Better and easier security (i.e. fingerprint sensors or face ID)
  • More storage
  • Better battery life
  • Better cameras
  • etc.

While it may be true that better cameras are the primary reason most people upgrade, I would be surprised if that's the case.

A lot of these just aren't true. 5G is not widely available yet and network connections are faster for everybody. Most games are casual and well within the performance envelope of older phones. Screens are getting SMALLER thanks to aspect ratio changes. Storage hasn't budged much. Etc. But camera development is big.

My guess would be that most people upgrade because their old phone broke, or no longer seems to work well. The vast array of new features make the high price easier to tolerate.

Per feature, phones have never been cheaper. And let's not confuse replacements with upgrades. If someone's discontinued old phone breaks and they get a current model, sure they "upgraded", but only because they had no other choice. I am talking about people buying new phones they don't need.

Remember, not all smart phones have the same camera systems. If cameras really were the primary force in phone sales, we wouldn't expect to see very many sales in any model that didn't have the latest and greatest camera.

See previous point. Also phone users are not a monolith.

The smartphone market will continue to grow, as it becomes capable of filling in additional segments of consumer demand. However, there will always be some sort of specialty market for higher end cameras that can do tasks the typical consumer just doesn't need.

For sure, I am pretty sure I have said as much.

My only point about smartphones is that there are a sizable number of phone buyers interested in phone camera IQ who can and do buy new phones just for the better cameras. This is evident in the investment being made into phone cameras by phone makers, phone accessory makers, and the increasing interest in phone photography by camera and tech media.

-- hide signature --

Sometimes I take pictures with my gear- https://www.flickr.com/photos/41601371@N00/

 sportyaccordy's gear list:sportyaccordy's gear list
NEX-5T Sony a7R II Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Canon EF 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 USM Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG Macro HSM II +6 more
tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 43,861
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?
1

sportyaccordy wrote:

tbcass wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

Cameras are the main if not only reason people are upgrading their phones these days, which is why phone companies are pouring so much R&D money into them. Performance otherwise is more than good enough and has been for years.

I do not believe that is true and you don't know that either. In fact what I see is just the opposite, The vast majority are casual photographers and care little about the quality of their camera phones. They find they are good enough now.

Of course it's true. If casual smartphone users don't care about the cameras, why are phone companies spending so much effort and money to upgrade them? Why do phone review sites have in depth sections on the cameras, testing IQ and performance? Why are websites like DPR and DxO increasingly covering and reviewing phone cameras? Seems like a lot of effort for something nobody cares about.

They do this for the small minority of smartphone fanatics like you who do care. There are billions of smartphone users out there so even if only 1% of them care about smartphone camera quality it's still enough to sell a few extra magazines or get some extra clicks to a review site. What you see very little of are successful review sites that focus solely on phone photography.

Camera phone advocates constantly declare that the camera phones as they exist are good enough for the vast majority of the population and then turn around and say it's the driving force behind sales. You can't have it both ways.

Yes, for SOME phone users, existing phones are good enough. For SOME, they want more, and are large enough in number that it's warranted investment by phone makers, and increased coverage by photography and tech sites. Phone users, like camera users, or any group of people, are not a monolith moving and thinking in lockstep.

Not according to the smartphone advocates who claim that billions of phone users find the cameras good enough. If you replace the word SOME with THE VAST MAJORITY in your paragraph above you would be right. You are overstating the importance of smartphone camera quality based on your opinion, not the vast majority of users. All one has to do is look around at the way the general public uses their smartphone cameras to know I'm right.

Why would I want camera phones to go away? I find mine very useful for many things, use it all the time, find it good for what I use it for and wouldn't buy a phone without one. I will not delude myself into believing they will ever be anywhere near as good as my dedicated cameras.

I have never claimed them to be comparable to dedicated cameras; quite the opposite actually. But your implication that only dedicated camera users care about camera IQ is flat out wrong.

I never claimed or implicated that only dedicated camera users care about IQ. I stated that the vast majority (not all) of smartphone users aren't very picky about IQ so advances in smartphone photography will not be a significant driver of sales.

-- hide signature --

Tom

 tbcass's gear list:tbcass's gear list
Sony RX100 Sony RX10 IV Sony a99 II Tamron SP AF 90mm F/2.8 Di Macro Sony DT 35mm F1.8 SAM +10 more
Michael Fryd
Michael Fryd Forum Pro • Posts: 11,746
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?
2

sportyaccordy wrote:

Michael Fryd wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

...

Cameras are the main if not only reason people are upgrading their phones these days, which is why phone companies are pouring so much R&D money into them. Performance otherwise is more than good enough and has been for years.

Do you have a source for this claim?

Off hand, none of my friends who have upgraded their smartphones have done so in order to get a better camera.

While a better camera is certainly one reason for upgrading a smart phone, it is not the only reason.

Well I know people who have upgraded phones just to get better cameras. That's the problem with anecdotes.

Newer smart phones have

  • Faster network connections
  • Faster processors for better gaming experience
  • Bigger screens
  • Better and easier security (i.e. fingerprint sensors or face ID)
  • More storage
  • Better battery life
  • Better cameras
  • etc.

While it may be true that better cameras are the primary reason most people upgrade, I would be surprised if that's the case.

A lot of these just aren't true. 5G is not widely available yet and network connections are faster for everybody. Most games are casual and well within the performance envelope of older phones. Screens are getting SMALLER thanks to aspect ratio changes. Storage hasn't budged much. Etc. But camera development is big.

I guess we have different experiences. I just upgraded my phone. My son is going off to college and I wanted him to have a model that's recent enough to run current software.

My new phone get's noticeably faster wi-fi and cellular data speeds. I suspect part of that is that the new phone has a better cellular modem, and the new phone has a faster processor.

My guess would be that most people upgrade because their old phone broke, or no longer seems to work well. The vast array of new features make the high price easier to tolerate.

Per feature, phones have never been cheaper. And let's not confuse replacements with upgrades. If someone's discontinued old phone breaks and they get a current model, sure they "upgraded", but only because they had no other choice. I am talking about people buying new phones they don't need.

Yes. If you are going to limit the conversation to people who are buying new phones they don't need because they want a better camera, then we are going to see a very high percentage of people who bought the phone because of the camera.

Remember, not all smart phones have the same camera systems. If cameras really were the primary force in phone sales, we wouldn't expect to see very many sales in any model that didn't have the latest and greatest camera.

See previous point. Also phone users are not a monolith.

Absolutely correct. However, if you are going to make the claim that cameras are the primary motivation for upgrades, (and not a failure of the existing phone), the you are accepting that there are some sort of general trends.

The smartphone market will continue to grow, as it becomes capable of filling in additional segments of consumer demand. However, there will always be some sort of specialty market for higher end cameras that can do tasks the typical consumer just doesn't need.

For sure, I am pretty sure I have said as much.

My only point about smartphones is that there are a sizable number of phone buyers interested in phone camera IQ who can and do buy new phones just for the better cameras. This is evident in the investment being made into phone cameras by phone makers, phone accessory makers, and the increasing interest in phone photography by camera and tech media.

It depends on what you mean by "sizable" and "interested".

Certainly most smartphone buyers are interested in the smartphone camera, but that is not the same as the camera is the primary drive to their purchasing decision.

In terms of sizable, most people are buying a new smartphone because of an issue with their old one.  Compared to that, the number of people who replace a perfectly good phone specifically to get a better camera, is quite small.

 Michael Fryd's gear list:Michael Fryd's gear list
Nikon Coolpix AW130 Canon EOS D60 Canon EOS 7D Mark II Canon EOS 5DS Canon EOS 5D Mark IV +16 more
stevo23 Forum Pro • Posts: 22,729
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?

sportyaccordy wrote:

tbcass wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

Cameras are the main if not only reason people are upgrading their phones these days, which is why phone companies are pouring so much R&D money into them. Performance otherwise is more than good enough and has been for years.

I do not believe that is true and you don't know that either. In fact what I see is just the opposite, The vast majority are casual photographers and care little about the quality of their camera phones. They find they are good enough now.

Of course it's true. If casual smartphone users don't care about the cameras, why are phone companies spending so much effort and money to upgrade them? Why do phone review sites have in depth sections on the cameras, testing IQ and performance? Why are websites like DPR and DxO increasingly covering and reviewing phone cameras? Seems like a lot of effort for something nobody cares about.

It's the whole package I suspect. People need enough added improvements to make them part with their money. Upgrade my 12Mp camera to 16Mp and change nothing else? Not interested myself.

I'm sure the makers are doing massive studies to determine what they can do to get people to buy the next smartphones, they would know this answer better than us and I wonder if they're willing to tell.

 stevo23's gear list:stevo23's gear list
Fujifilm X-Pro2 Fujifilm XF 60mm F2.4 R Macro Fujifilm XF 14mm F2.8 R Fujifilm XF 27mm F2.8 Fujifilm XF 23mm F1.4 R +3 more
Michael Fryd
Michael Fryd Forum Pro • Posts: 11,746
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?
2

sportyaccordy wrote:

tbcass wrote:

...

I do not believe that is true and you don't know that either. In fact what I see is just the opposite, The vast majority are casual photographers and care little about the quality of their camera phones. They find they are good enough now.

Of course it's true. If casual smartphone users don't care about the cameras, why are phone companies spending so much effort and money to upgrade them? Why do phone review sites have in depth sections on the cameras, testing IQ and performance? Why are websites like DPR and DxO increasingly covering and reviewing phone cameras? Seems like a lot of effort for something nobody cares about.

...

Let's assume that most people don't really care which smartphone they have, as long as it offers the basic functionality they want.  The challenge for a manufacturer is to steer them to their brand, and preferably a higher end model.

One way to do this is an emotional appeal that their phone is somehow better than the competition.  Even a small difference can be enough to steer a customer who doesn't really care what he/she buys.

This is why there was a software update recently so that some existing AT&T phones now show "5GE" in areas they previously displayed "LTE".   The connection is exactly the same, but AT&T believes that customers are more likely to buy a phone that claims to work with 5G cellular.  Note that the actual functionality doesn't really matter, only how it is marketed.

When it comes to cameras, it's easy to promote insignificant changes as important.  Customers "know" that 20 megapixels is better than "10", even if the resulting images end up looking the same.   Customers "know" that "professional portrait mode" is better, even if it's something they never use.

In other words, smartphone manufacturers know that marketing is important.  it's easy to sell better "cameras" to people who don't really understand the difference.

 Michael Fryd's gear list:Michael Fryd's gear list
Nikon Coolpix AW130 Canon EOS D60 Canon EOS 7D Mark II Canon EOS 5DS Canon EOS 5D Mark IV +16 more
Tuloom Veteran Member • Posts: 3,251
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?
1

For more bokeh.

OP Lee Jay Forum Pro • Posts: 54,891
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?
2

Tuloom wrote:

For more bokeh.

You mean more out-of-focus blur.  Bokeh is quality, not quantity.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bokeh

: the blurred quality or effect seen in the out-of-focus portion of a photograph taken with a narrow depth of fieldGood bokeh is smooth and pleasing, whereas bad bokeh produces a jagged and discordant effect. … The quality of bokeh is largely dependent on the construction of the lens. For this reason, lenses that provide high-quality bokeh are prized.— Harold Davis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokeh

In photography, bokeh (/ˈboʊkə/ BOH-kə or /ˈboʊkeɪ/ BOH-kay;[1] Japanese: [boke]) is the aesthetic quality of the blur produced in the out-of-focus parts of an image produced by a lens.[2][3][4] Bokeh has been defined as "the way the lens renders out-of-focus points of light".

"the visual quality of the out-of-focus areas of a photographic image, especially as rendered by a particular lens."

-- hide signature --

Lee Jay

 Lee Jay's gear list:Lee Jay's gear list
Canon IXUS 310 HS Canon PowerShot SX50 HS Canon EOS 7D Mark II Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM Canon EF 8-15mm f/4L Fisheye USM +23 more
mamallama
mamallama Forum Pro • Posts: 56,272
Re: Why do you buy fast lenses/cameras?

tbcass wrote:

mamallama wrote:

tbcass wrote:

Fregoli wrote:

And yes, smartphone users want all that too.

So no, while some would very much wish to indulge the wishful thought that smartphone photography R&D will peter out and evaporate like a bad dream, the reality will be anything but that.

I don't want smartphone R&D to peter out. I still say that the vast majority of smartphone users find the cameras of their phones just fine the way they are and more features and R&D into the cameras will do little if anything to spur sales. When that happens R&D will go into other things besides the camera.

These smartphone companies got R&D money to burn. So don't expect R&D into smartphone cameras to stop.

You don't know that and if true you have no idea they will not diverte R&D to other areas of smartphone tech. The only reason smartphones are sold is to produce profits. If cameras in phones no longer contribute to those profits, camera improvements will stall.

Yes, I do know smartphone companies have money to burn. Companies like Apple and Google are expanding their already huge footprint here in Silicon Valley with more large R&D campus complexes from Mountain View to San Jose. The camera part of smartphones is one of the areas where the technology is most expanding.

 mamallama's gear list:mamallama's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX85 +1 more
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads