Photographers vs. Audiophiles (Part 2): Audio Woo

Started 3 months ago | Discussions
mamallama
mamallama Forum Pro • Posts: 56,093
Re: Single group option

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

tbcass wrote:

I agree 100%. The distortion produced by even the best speakers combined with room acoustics and the fact that the human ear is far from the most sensitive in the animal kingdom means any minute differences in sound between amplifiers, speaker wire and other components will be overwhelmed and inaudible.

I can hear inaudible things!

Impossible, by definition.

Which implies that...?

It might just be your imagination. Your brain senses more than what come through your ear. But, by definition, you hear audible sound waves (air pressure waves) that are detected through your ear.

When people say they are hearing things, it might be from other than sound waves through the ear.

You left out the other alternative, it is not really inaudible.

I did not leave out anything. I was just using your own words. You said inaudible and I take your word for it.

I guess that the sarcasm was too subtle for you?

I had no idea you were confused in other ways.

You have no idea about many other things. You know better than me what I can and what I cannot hear, for starters.

I know for sure, by definition, you cannot hear the inaudible.

So tbcass was wrong to call it inaudible?

You can be very skeptical about the difference speaker cables make but everybody who claims that you cannot hear differences between amps is deaf.

I know of no one who claim amps cannot make big differences.

See above, I underlined it in bold. Now you know somebody.

Still true. I see nothing underlined in bold. There is a bolded statement, but it doesn't say what you think.

Looks like you are confusing his "minute differences" with my "cannot". You seem to have a hard time understanding English statements. Is English your first language?

The sentence implies that the differences are minute, and then it claims that they cannot be heard. Do not attack me for the way it is constructed, it was not me who wrote it.

You seem to have hard time with elementary logic. You cannot really follow me.

That has nothing to do with my statement which said "I know of no one who claim amps cannot make big differences".

Except for tbcass.

tbcass was talking about minute difference.

Can you read? You want to say that he meant - we cannot hear minute differences but we can hear the rest? After all he said, he felt the needed to make a completely trivial remark going against everything he claimed before? After all, non minute differences do not even exist, right?

I was talking about the capabilities of amps in general.

You should not have. You are trying to move the goalposts.

Learn to read and reread all that I wrote and you will understand. There are many amplifier designs that can make differences.

Do you understand the difference? Apparently not. That is why I still doubt your English comprehension skills.

You are too full of yourself. Try to sound more coherent before claiming any type of superiority.

You keep hearing things that are inaudible. It's all in your head.

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tko Forum Pro • Posts: 12,928
not nonsense. sense

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

tbcass wrote:

I agree 100%. The distortion produced by even the best speakers combined with room acoustics and the fact that the human ear is far from the most sensitive in the animal kingdom means any minute differences in sound between amplifiers, speaker wire and other components will be overwhelmed and inaudible.

Nonsense. Sounds like somebody's listening skills need an upgrade.

They tested a group of discerning audiophiles once to see much distortion they could hear. On a sine wave, it was about 1%. On real music, it was about 10%. The human ear, as are most our senses, is great in some areas, but terrible in others.

Personally, I thought vinyl sounded like junk. I could hear the needle bouncing off the groves, the distortion killing my hears. But some audiophiles believe vinyl is still the greatest thing ever. Snootiness at it's best. The more esoteric, the more other people don't have it, the better it sound.

Ultimate, emotions and bias impacts what we see, hear, taste and smell more than reality.

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 43,577
Re: not nonsense. sense

tko wrote:

Ultimate, emotions and bias impacts what we see, hear, taste and smell more than reality.

Well to the person who claims to hear the difference it is "real". That's why this argument is going nowhere.

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Tom

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tko Forum Pro • Posts: 12,928
the gloves come off :)

Yes, I most certainly will. You won't, because you're: a. simply unable and b. too dull to admit that different people have different capabilities. You do not get to tell anyone what they can or can't hear. So shove off.

This is very telling. Instead of arguing your point, you've become very angry when your supposed superiority is challenged. This tells me that you feel a strong emotion need to justify your bias.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_bias

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 43,577
Re: Single group option
1

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

tbcass wrote:

I agree 100%. The distortion produced by even the best speakers combined with room acoustics and the fact that the human ear is far from the most sensitive in the animal kingdom means any minute differences in sound between amplifiers, speaker wire and other components will be overwhelmed and inaudible.

Nonsense. Sounds like somebody's listening skills need an upgrade.

Attacking me personally accomplishes nothing, especially since you know nothing about my listening skills. My listening skills were developed over decades as an audiophile. While age has dulled my hearing somewhat I never claimed in the above paragraph it had any relevance to me and what I hear. What you and others fail to realize is perception and subjectivity can result in two people with equal listening skills hearing things differently.

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Tom

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mamallama
mamallama Forum Pro • Posts: 56,093
Re: Back to audio and speaker wires for a minute....
2

Don_Campbell wrote:

Wow. I've watched this thread drift away from audio into rancorous arguments about subjectivity, misleading allusions to neurophysiology and other wayward tacks.

Before the rapidly approaching post limit is reached, I thought it might help folks to have yet another link to knowledgeable information about speaker wires.

There is a really interesting and informative essay by Roger Russell, a former engineer and speaker designer for McIntosh Labs: "Speaker Wire--A History."

It includes A/B testing, skin effects, speaker impedances, actual measurements and a whole lot more. It's also readable. There's even as story about "the amazing Randi" and his challenge to an "audiophile" reviewer to tell the difference between hyper expensive wires and Randi's cables.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Amusingly, it starts with a Mark Twain quotation: "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” No, I didn't check the authenticity of the quotation but it sounds about right for the context of our discussion.

Excellent article, clear and straightforward engineering explanations with no handwaving that you see in many articles on the subject.

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ZodiacPhoto
ZodiacPhoto Senior Member • Posts: 2,700
Re: not nonsense. sense
1

tko wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

tbcass wrote:

I agree 100%. The distortion produced by even the best speakers combined with room acoustics and the fact that the human ear is far from the most sensitive in the animal kingdom means any minute differences in sound between amplifiers, speaker wire and other components will be overwhelmed and inaudible.

Nonsense. Sounds like somebody's listening skills need an upgrade.

They tested a group of discerning audiophiles once to see much distortion they could hear. On a sine wave, it was about 1%. On real music, it was about 10%. The human ear, as are most our senses, is great in some areas, but terrible in others.

This is the biggest piece of misinformation (trying to stay polite here) in this thread.

Percentage of distortions on its own is meaningless - it depends on character and spectrum of distortions,  listening level, etc.

For example,  you will definitely hear 2% of hard clipping,  but may not notice 10% of soft clipping,  especially when listening to music - depends on type of music also.

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J A C S
J A C S Forum Pro • Posts: 14,947
Re: Single group option

mamallama wrote:

You keep hearing things that are inaudible. It's all in your head.

It seems that they are inaudible to you only.

Fregoli
Fregoli Regular Member • Posts: 208
Re: Back to audio and speaker wires for a minute....

Don_Campbell wrote:

Wow. I've watched this thread drift away from audio into rancorous arguments about subjectivity, misleading allusions to neurophysiology and other wayward tacks.

Before the rapidly approaching post limit is reached, I thought it might help folks to have yet another link to knowledgeable information about speaker wires.

There is a really interesting and informative essay by Roger Russell, a former engineer and speaker designer for McIntosh Labs: "Speaker Wire--A History."

It includes A/B testing, skin effects, speaker impedances, actual measurements and a whole lot more. It's also readable. There's even as story about "the amazing Randi" and his challenge to an "audiophile" reviewer to tell the difference between hyper expensive wires and Randi's cables.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Amusingly, it starts with a Mark Twain quotation: "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” No, I didn't check the authenticity of the quotation but it sounds about right for the context of our discussion.

Good post, Don.

Fregoli
Fregoli Regular Member • Posts: 208
Re: Photographers vs. Audiophiles (Part 2): Audio Woo

Great idea for a thread!

If it helped even one person who would otherwise have dropped $$$ needlessly on snake-oil cables, then it will have done its job!

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