Photographers vs. Audiophiles (Part 2): Audio Woo

Started 3 months ago | Discussions
Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 13,478
Re: Single group option
2

tbcass wrote:

I agree 100%. The distortion produced by even the best speakers combined with room acoustics and the fact that the human ear is far from the most sensitive in the animal kingdom means any minute differences in sound between amplifiers, speaker wire and other components will be overwhelmed and inaudible.

Nonsense.  Sounds like somebody's listening skills need an upgrade.

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J A C S
J A C S Forum Pro • Posts: 14,925
Re: Single group option

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

tbcass wrote:

I agree 100%. The distortion produced by even the best speakers combined with room acoustics and the fact that the human ear is far from the most sensitive in the animal kingdom means any minute differences in sound between amplifiers, speaker wire and other components will be overwhelmed and inaudible.

I can hear inaudible things!

Impossible, by definition.

Which implies that...?

It might just be your imagination. Your brain senses more than what come through your ear. But, by definition, you hear audible sound waves (air pressure waves) that are detected through your ear.

When people say they are hearing things, it might be from other than sound waves through the ear.

You left out the other alternative, it is not really inaudible.

I did not leave out anything. I was just using your own words. You said inaudible and I take your word for it.

I guess that the sarcasm was too subtle for you?

I had no idea you were confused in other ways.

You have no idea about many other things. You know better than me what I can and what I cannot hear, for starters.

I know for sure, by definition, you cannot hear the inaudible.

So tbcass was wrong to call it inaudible?

You can be very skeptical about the difference speaker cables make but everybody who claims that you cannot hear differences between amps is deaf.

I know of no one who claim amps cannot make big differences.

See above, I underlined it in bold. Now you know somebody.

mamallama
mamallama Forum Pro • Posts: 56,066
Re: Single group option

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

tbcass wrote:

I agree 100%. The distortion produced by even the best speakers combined with room acoustics and the fact that the human ear is far from the most sensitive in the animal kingdom means any minute differences in sound between amplifiers, speaker wire and other components will be overwhelmed and inaudible.

I can hear inaudible things!

Impossible, by definition.

Which implies that...?

It might just be your imagination. Your brain senses more than what come through your ear. But, by definition, you hear audible sound waves (air pressure waves) that are detected through your ear.

When people say they are hearing things, it might be from other than sound waves through the ear.

You left out the other alternative, it is not really inaudible.

I did not leave out anything. I was just using your own words. You said inaudible and I take your word for it.

I guess that the sarcasm was too subtle for you?

I had no idea you were confused in other ways.

You have no idea about many other things. You know better than me what I can and what I cannot hear, for starters.

I know for sure, by definition, you cannot hear the inaudible.

So tbcass was wrong to call it inaudible?

You can be very skeptical about the difference speaker cables make but everybody who claims that you cannot hear differences between amps is deaf.

I know of no one who claim amps cannot make big differences.

See above, I underlined it in bold. Now you know somebody.

Still true. I see nothing underlined in bold. There is a bolded statement, but it doesn't say what you think.

Looks like you are confusing his "minute differences" with my "cannot".  You seem to have a hard time understanding English statements. Is English your first language?

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Brev00
Brev00 Veteran Member • Posts: 9,712
Re: Actually...

MediaArchivist wrote:

Brev00 wrote:

D Cox wrote:

Nobody is denying that some people are more analytical and others more intuitive. What is being denied is the facile myth that this is linked to different behavior of the left and right halves of the brain.

Actually not.

Actually so. It was a refutation of the following:

Brev00 wrote:

There is also the case of biology as biologists have determined that the two hemispheres of the brain have different functions. The left brain involves scientific analysis while the right brain involves appreciation of music.

No, what is being denied by the op and several others is the experience of the audiophiles they target. You can oppose my understanding of the different functions of the brain but that doesn't touch the argument that I have set forth as is clearly acknowledged:. No one denies yada yada yada.

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J A C S
J A C S Forum Pro • Posts: 14,925
Re: Single group option

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

tbcass wrote:

I agree 100%. The distortion produced by even the best speakers combined with room acoustics and the fact that the human ear is far from the most sensitive in the animal kingdom means any minute differences in sound between amplifiers, speaker wire and other components will be overwhelmed and inaudible.

I can hear inaudible things!

Impossible, by definition.

Which implies that...?

It might just be your imagination. Your brain senses more than what come through your ear. But, by definition, you hear audible sound waves (air pressure waves) that are detected through your ear.

When people say they are hearing things, it might be from other than sound waves through the ear.

You left out the other alternative, it is not really inaudible.

I did not leave out anything. I was just using your own words. You said inaudible and I take your word for it.

I guess that the sarcasm was too subtle for you?

I had no idea you were confused in other ways.

You have no idea about many other things. You know better than me what I can and what I cannot hear, for starters.

I know for sure, by definition, you cannot hear the inaudible.

So tbcass was wrong to call it inaudible?

You can be very skeptical about the difference speaker cables make but everybody who claims that you cannot hear differences between amps is deaf.

I know of no one who claim amps cannot make big differences.

See above, I underlined it in bold. Now you know somebody.

Still true. I see nothing underlined in bold. There is a bolded statement, but it doesn't say what you think.

Looks like you are confusing his "minute differences" with my "cannot". You seem to have a hard time understanding English statements. Is English your first language?

The sentence implies that the differences are minute, and then it claims that they cannot be heard. Do not attack me for the way it is constructed, it was not me who wrote it.

You seem to have hard time with elementary logic. You cannot really follow me.

Donald B
Donald B Forum Pro • Posts: 13,308
Re: Single group option
3

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

tbcass wrote:

I agree 100%. The distortion produced by even the best speakers combined with room acoustics and the fact that the human ear is far from the most sensitive in the animal kingdom means any minute differences in sound between amplifiers, speaker wire and other components will be overwhelmed and inaudible.

Nonsense. Sounds like somebody's listening skills need an upgrade.

sorry but no one will ever hear the difference.

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/skin-effect-relevance-in-speaker-cables

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Brev00
Brev00 Veteran Member • Posts: 9,712
Re: Photographers vs. Audiophiles (Part 2): Audio Woo
1

ThrillaMozilla wrote:

Crash N Burn wrote:

That great thread ended with Don Campbell's interesting post:

Oh-oh. Now you've done it. Now we get to hear from the people who are described in that post.

On a related note, I was weighing whether to get a CD player, so I went to a high-fi shop and asked to hear their best (their best everything, including electronics and speakers). The salesman demonstrated for me and proceeded to tell me how wonderful everything was.

Turns out their "best" amplifier was grossly defective, and they had no idea. The sound was grossly distorted, like with my old Dynaco tube amp when one of two output tubes was dead. Fortunately, their cheapo amp sounded fine. So much for golden ears that could hear what no measurement could detect. What's the moral? I don't know. Placebo effect on steroids?

Or maybe an unqualified salesman?  At least you can hear differences others cannot. Hmmm.

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mamallama
mamallama Forum Pro • Posts: 56,066
Re: Single group option

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

tbcass wrote:

I agree 100%. The distortion produced by even the best speakers combined with room acoustics and the fact that the human ear is far from the most sensitive in the animal kingdom means any minute differences in sound between amplifiers, speaker wire and other components will be overwhelmed and inaudible.

I can hear inaudible things!

Impossible, by definition.

Which implies that...?

It might just be your imagination. Your brain senses more than what come through your ear. But, by definition, you hear audible sound waves (air pressure waves) that are detected through your ear.

When people say they are hearing things, it might be from other than sound waves through the ear.

You left out the other alternative, it is not really inaudible.

I did not leave out anything. I was just using your own words. You said inaudible and I take your word for it.

I guess that the sarcasm was too subtle for you?

I had no idea you were confused in other ways.

You have no idea about many other things. You know better than me what I can and what I cannot hear, for starters.

I know for sure, by definition, you cannot hear the inaudible.

So tbcass was wrong to call it inaudible?

You can be very skeptical about the difference speaker cables make but everybody who claims that you cannot hear differences between amps is deaf.

I know of no one who claim amps cannot make big differences.

See above, I underlined it in bold. Now you know somebody.

Still true. I see nothing underlined in bold. There is a bolded statement, but it doesn't say what you think.

Looks like you are confusing his "minute differences" with my "cannot". You seem to have a hard time understanding English statements. Is English your first language?

The sentence implies that the differences are minute, and then it claims that they cannot be heard. Do not attack me for the way it is constructed, it was not me who wrote it.

You seem to have hard time with elementary logic. You cannot really follow me.

That has nothing to do with my statement which said "I know of no one who claim amps cannot make big differences".

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Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX85 +1 more
J A C S
J A C S Forum Pro • Posts: 14,925
Re: Single group option

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

tbcass wrote:

I agree 100%. The distortion produced by even the best speakers combined with room acoustics and the fact that the human ear is far from the most sensitive in the animal kingdom means any minute differences in sound between amplifiers, speaker wire and other components will be overwhelmed and inaudible.

I can hear inaudible things!

Impossible, by definition.

Which implies that...?

It might just be your imagination. Your brain senses more than what come through your ear. But, by definition, you hear audible sound waves (air pressure waves) that are detected through your ear.

When people say they are hearing things, it might be from other than sound waves through the ear.

You left out the other alternative, it is not really inaudible.

I did not leave out anything. I was just using your own words. You said inaudible and I take your word for it.

I guess that the sarcasm was too subtle for you?

I had no idea you were confused in other ways.

You have no idea about many other things. You know better than me what I can and what I cannot hear, for starters.

I know for sure, by definition, you cannot hear the inaudible.

So tbcass was wrong to call it inaudible?

You can be very skeptical about the difference speaker cables make but everybody who claims that you cannot hear differences between amps is deaf.

I know of no one who claim amps cannot make big differences.

See above, I underlined it in bold. Now you know somebody.

Still true. I see nothing underlined in bold. There is a bolded statement, but it doesn't say what you think.

Looks like you are confusing his "minute differences" with my "cannot". You seem to have a hard time understanding English statements. Is English your first language?

The sentence implies that the differences are minute, and then it claims that they cannot be heard. Do not attack me for the way it is constructed, it was not me who wrote it.

You seem to have hard time with elementary logic. You cannot really follow me.

That has nothing to do with my statement which said "I know of no one who claim amps cannot make big differences".

Except for tbcass.

mamallama
mamallama Forum Pro • Posts: 56,066
Re: Single group option

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

tbcass wrote:

I agree 100%. The distortion produced by even the best speakers combined with room acoustics and the fact that the human ear is far from the most sensitive in the animal kingdom means any minute differences in sound between amplifiers, speaker wire and other components will be overwhelmed and inaudible.

I can hear inaudible things!

Impossible, by definition.

Which implies that...?

It might just be your imagination. Your brain senses more than what come through your ear. But, by definition, you hear audible sound waves (air pressure waves) that are detected through your ear.

When people say they are hearing things, it might be from other than sound waves through the ear.

You left out the other alternative, it is not really inaudible.

I did not leave out anything. I was just using your own words. You said inaudible and I take your word for it.

I guess that the sarcasm was too subtle for you?

I had no idea you were confused in other ways.

You have no idea about many other things. You know better than me what I can and what I cannot hear, for starters.

I know for sure, by definition, you cannot hear the inaudible.

So tbcass was wrong to call it inaudible?

You can be very skeptical about the difference speaker cables make but everybody who claims that you cannot hear differences between amps is deaf.

I know of no one who claim amps cannot make big differences.

See above, I underlined it in bold. Now you know somebody.

Still true. I see nothing underlined in bold. There is a bolded statement, but it doesn't say what you think.

Looks like you are confusing his "minute differences" with my "cannot". You seem to have a hard time understanding English statements. Is English your first language?

The sentence implies that the differences are minute, and then it claims that they cannot be heard. Do not attack me for the way it is constructed, it was not me who wrote it.

You seem to have hard time with elementary logic. You cannot really follow me.

That has nothing to do with my statement which said "I know of no one who claim amps cannot make big differences".

Except for tbcass.

tbcass was talking about minute difference. I was talking about the capabilities of amps in general. Do you understand the difference? Apparently not. That is why I still doubt your English comprehension skills.

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 43,532
Re: Actually...

Brev00 wrote:

No, what is being denied by the op and several others is the experience of the audiophiles they target. You can oppose my understanding of the different functions of the brain but that doesn't touch the argument that I have set forth as is clearly acknowledged:. No one denies yada yada yada.

Your whole contention I think (you expressed it so pedantically that it got lost) is if a person hears a difference then for that person it is real on a subjective level. I agree with that. The problem is it doesn't necessarily transfer to anyone else. On an extreme level schizophrenics live in a different reality subjectively. This discussion is about the fact that the person is for all intention being duped even if they don't know it.

The problem with arguing on a subjective level like this is the answers are as numerous as there are people. On the objective level the perceptions of different individuals is taken out of the equation. If you want to discuss the philosophical level of reality you are entering the metaphysical realm. It is an area that is interesting, important and merits discussion but IMO it belongs in a different discussion than this.

Originally you suggested "You are now entering the realm of philosophy an area in which you are not likely prepared to engage." You might be surprised that I am more versed in that area than you might imagine although it dates back to my college days long ago. I simply compartmentalize separating the concepts of physical reality from what is essentially a virtual reality. At the same time there is a relationship between the two realities that most people are unable to separate. Many arguments on gear in these forums result from the inability to separate subjective from objective reality and then arguing that what they experience subjectively must be true at a universal level. Claiming what camera has the "best" colors is a prime example.

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Tom

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brontide Regular Member • Posts: 131
Re: Photographers vs. Audiophiles (Part 2): Audio Woo

sybersitizen wrote:

I'm pretty sure we also have Photo Woo here, though the term might not yet be officially recognized.

Woo comes in all shapes and sizes and does not discriminate.  Woo can also be known by different names depending on the application.

Reject woo in all forms.  While there may be things that are poorly understood we should always be wary of woo that can't be tested and/or quantified.

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Brev00
Brev00 Veteran Member • Posts: 9,712
Re: Actually...
1

tbcass wrote:

Brev00 wrote:

No, what is being denied by the op and several others is the experience of the audiophiles they target. You can oppose my understanding of the different functions of the brain but that doesn't touch the argument that I have set forth as is clearly acknowledged:. No one denies yada yada yada.

Your whole contention I think (you expressed it so pedantically that it got lost)

Okay. You do notice your lack of comprehension. Good.

is if a person hears a difference then for that person it is real on a subjective level. I agree with that. The problem is it doesn't necessarily transfer to anyone else.

The recommended approach of following one's own subjective parameters is transferable.

n an extreme level schizophrenics live in a different reality subjectively. T

Exactly. We normally live in the world of agreement and those who break from that reality are seen as crazy and/or failures. You know, Copernicus. Some have a leg in each realm. Like me. Bipolar.

discussion is about the fact that the person is for all intention being duped even if they don't know it.

The assertion in the op is that people are being duped which means they are not following their own experience, maybe do not even have a subjective experience. Only the opinions of others. So one either exists as a shell as a product of popular agreement or as a shell as the product of persuasion. I objected to the dismissive attitude of the op. I did not mention how off base it is for a photographer to criticize audiophiles on a photography website. The off topic forum no longer exists so this post should not exist. It is also rude as audiophiles are being insulted behind their backs.

The problem with arguing on a subjective level like this is the answers are as numerous as there are people.

This entire post is on the subjective level. Just hides behind a scientific surface. I have pointed out bias.

On the objective level the perceptions of different individuals is taken out of the equation. If you want to discuss the philosophical level of reality you are entering the metaphysical realm.

The attitude of the op reflects an unstated, underlying philosophy that I have attempted to unearth to clarify things.

Originally you suggested "You are now entering the realm of philosophy an area in which you are not likely prepared to engage." You might be surprised that I am more versed in that area than you might imagine although it dates back to my college days long ago. I simply compartmentalize separating the concepts of physical reality from what is essentially a virtual reality.

The separation you assert comes from an unstated philosophy that colors this argument. Analytical. I try to see things from the other's point of view which means I accept their reality. Read Carl Rogers. Empathetic. I am not an audiophile but my brother in law is. I ask him questions, share my understanding of his experience, get feedback. There is a difference between dismissing someone's experience and acknowledging it.

At the same time there is a relationship between the two realities that most people are unable to separate. Many arguments on gear in these forums result from the inability to separate subjective from objective reality and then arguing that what they experience subjectively must be true at a universal level. C

I don't know. Haven't discussed this with those people and only have your report. I would express my experience to contact their own experience rather than appeal to what everyone should do or think. I think. What do you think? If my comment is not helpful to the other person, then that is fine. I have not provided links to third party entities. Just suggested some reading material. Enjoy!

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J A C S
J A C S Forum Pro • Posts: 14,925
Re: Single group option

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

mamallama wrote:

J A C S wrote:

tbcass wrote:

I agree 100%. The distortion produced by even the best speakers combined with room acoustics and the fact that the human ear is far from the most sensitive in the animal kingdom means any minute differences in sound between amplifiers, speaker wire and other components will be overwhelmed and inaudible.

I can hear inaudible things!

Impossible, by definition.

Which implies that...?

It might just be your imagination. Your brain senses more than what come through your ear. But, by definition, you hear audible sound waves (air pressure waves) that are detected through your ear.

When people say they are hearing things, it might be from other than sound waves through the ear.

You left out the other alternative, it is not really inaudible.

I did not leave out anything. I was just using your own words. You said inaudible and I take your word for it.

I guess that the sarcasm was too subtle for you?

I had no idea you were confused in other ways.

You have no idea about many other things. You know better than me what I can and what I cannot hear, for starters.

I know for sure, by definition, you cannot hear the inaudible.

So tbcass was wrong to call it inaudible?

You can be very skeptical about the difference speaker cables make but everybody who claims that you cannot hear differences between amps is deaf.

I know of no one who claim amps cannot make big differences.

See above, I underlined it in bold. Now you know somebody.

Still true. I see nothing underlined in bold. There is a bolded statement, but it doesn't say what you think.

Looks like you are confusing his "minute differences" with my "cannot". You seem to have a hard time understanding English statements. Is English your first language?

The sentence implies that the differences are minute, and then it claims that they cannot be heard. Do not attack me for the way it is constructed, it was not me who wrote it.

You seem to have hard time with elementary logic. You cannot really follow me.

That has nothing to do with my statement which said "I know of no one who claim amps cannot make big differences".

Except for tbcass.

tbcass was talking about minute difference.

Can you read? You want to say that he meant - we cannot hear minute differences but we can hear the rest? After all he said, he felt the needed to make a completely trivial remark going against everything he claimed before? After all, non minute differences do not even exist, right?

I was talking about the capabilities of amps in general.

You should not have. You are trying to move the goalposts.

Do you understand the difference? Apparently not. That is why I still doubt your English comprehension skills.

You are too full of yourself. Try to sound more coherent before claiming any type of superiority.

tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 43,532
Re: Actually...

Brev00 wrote:

I don't know. Haven't discussed this with those people and only have your report. I would express my experience to contact their own experience rather than appeal to what everyone should do or think. I think. What do you think? If my comment is not helpful to the other person, then that is fine. I have not provided links to third party entities. Just suggested some reading material. Enjoy!

I agree 100%. When I point out that their experience is not necessarily applicable to anyone else they often get angry and will go to great effort to prove their point, Sometimes they put me on their ignore list which is fine with me. It appears to me they are unable to differentiate the subjective from the objective. My discussion with you has actually given me insight on how to better deal with these people, hopefully without insulting them.

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Tom

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Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 13,478
Re: Single group option
1

Donald B wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

tbcass wrote:

I agree 100%. The distortion produced by even the best speakers combined with room acoustics and the fact that the human ear is far from the most sensitive in the animal kingdom means any minute differences in sound between amplifiers, speaker wire and other components will be overwhelmed and inaudible.

Nonsense. Sounds like somebody's listening skills need an upgrade.

sorry but no one will ever hear the difference.

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/skin-effect-relevance-in-speaker-cables

Yes, I most certainly will.  You won't, because you're: a. simply unable and b. too dull to admit that different people have different capabilities.  You do not get to tell anyone what they can or can't hear.  So shove off.

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Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 13,478
Re: Photographers vs. Audiophiles (Part 2): Audio Woo
2

ThrillaMozilla wrote:

Crash N Burn wrote:

That great thread ended with Don Campbell's interesting post:

Oh-oh. Now you've done it. Now we get to hear from the people who are described in that post.

On a related note, I was weighing whether to get a CD player, so I went to a high-fi shop and asked to hear their best (their best everything, including electronics and speakers). The salesman demonstrated for me and proceeded to tell me how wonderful everything was.

Turns out their "best" amplifier was grossly defective, and they had no idea. The sound was grossly distorted, like with my old Dynaco tube amp when one of two output tubes was dead.

Sorry, but I don't believe this story.

Fortunately, their cheapo amp sounded fine. So much for golden ears that could hear what no measurement could detect. What's the moral? I don't know. Placebo effect on steroids?

 Reilly Diefenbach's gear list:Reilly Diefenbach's gear list
Nikon D500 Nikon D850
Brev00
Brev00 Veteran Member • Posts: 9,712
Re: Actually...

tbcass wrote:

Brev00 wrote:

I don't know. Haven't discussed this with those people and only have your report. I would express my experience to contact their own experience rather than appeal to what everyone should do or think. I think. What do you think? If my comment is not helpful to the other person, then that is fine. I have not provided links to third party entities. Just suggested some reading material. Enjoy!

I agree 100%. When I point out that their experience is not necessarily applicable to anyone else they often get angry and will go to great effort to prove their point, Sometimes they put me on their ignore list which is fine with me. It appears to me

The helpful subjective part

they are unable to differentiate the subjective from the objective.

The unhelpful 'objective' part.

My discussion with you has actually given me insight on how to better deal with these people, hopefully without insulting them.

That is great! Makes such dialogues very rewarding.

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Tom

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Don_Campbell Senior Member • Posts: 2,892
Back to audio and speaker wires for a minute....
2

Wow. I've watched this thread drift away from audio into rancorous arguments about subjectivity, misleading allusions to neurophysiology and other wayward tacks.

Before the rapidly approaching post limit is reached, I thought it might help folks to have yet another link to knowledgeable information about speaker wires.

There is a really interesting and informative essay by Roger Russell, a former engineer and speaker designer for McIntosh Labs: "Speaker Wire--A History."

It includes A/B testing, skin effects, speaker impedances, actual measurements and a whole lot more. It's also readable. There's even as story about "the amazing Randi" and his challenge to an "audiophile" reviewer to tell the difference between hyper expensive wires and Randi's cables.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Amusingly, it starts with a Mark Twain quotation: "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” No, I didn't check the authenticity of the quotation but it sounds about right for the context of our discussion.

tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 43,532
Re: Actually...

Case in point.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62961896

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62961647

Notice how these discussions degenerated into a senseless macho argument because one is arguing from a subjective POV while the other from a measurable objective POV. Neither being able to understand the other's POV.

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Tom

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