Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?

Started 3 months ago | Discussions
Erik Kaffehr
Erik Kaffehr Senior Member • Posts: 3,057
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?
1

jjz2 wrote:

While I’m not shooting high mp at the time, it does make a difference. A few years ago in 2015 I was using “only” 24 mp camera and went on safari... I had seen my own photos, on my normal laptop... then went to my wife’s relatives house that had a 70” 4K screen to look at images on...wow... didn’t know my photography looked that good. So yes, I get it.

Well, 4K is 8 294 400 pixels, that is 8 MP or around 13 MP, using the 24x36 mm aspect ratio.

It is often said that something like 180 PPI is needed for an excellent print. So, printing 30" x 45" needs 44 MP, at least for close scrutiny.

Best regards

Erik

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NottsPhoto Senior Member • Posts: 1,686
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?
1

biza43 wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

biza43 wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

io_bg wrote:

Those pros who need to be on top of their game and offer more than what most amateurs and other pros are capable of. The A7 IV will soon follow for those who don't need so much resolution.

Any pro who differentiates himself by his gear, is wasting his time.

Right. That is why we do not see sports photogs using the big telephotos. they can shoot with a smartphone and get Federer's expression from afar... Any pro will adopt new technology and gear if it helps him to differentiate from its peers.

your entirely missing the point.... every sports photographer at that level has access to any of the gear. He can’t base his business on buying a bit if kit, as it’s not possible to have a usp from that. It’s about the pictures....

Did I? You implied that pros do not need specialized gear to differentiate his work. I say they do need special gear to do their job, when and if required. I gave a sports photog as an example. I could give others. Of course in the end is about the pics.

The customers don’t care about anything in excess of their needs technically, (most don’t even know what those are btw..) they want good pictures and more importantly, good service.

Maybe your customers do not care. Have you tried submitting your 12 MP or 16 MP images to professional image banks that are requiring increasingly higher res files?

Again, your missing the point, Everyone can submit the appropriate sized images because everyone can access the gear...

You were arguing against the need for high res. right? Now you say that everyone has access to it?

No, I wasn’t.

I was arguing that the customer cares not what mp you have, as long as his needs are met...  and that you can’t differentiate yourself as a photographer based on your gear.

they really don’t give a stuff if you use a 24mp or 60mp camera... just as long as... see above,

Right, if you say so.

they don’t, they care that you provide them with images that meet their needs.

But in order to do so, the photog needs to have access to the gear, right? Some work for agencies and have a gear poll from which to use. Others need to buy the gear to use in their studio, in the field, etc. In the end, the gear needs to exist and to be made.

now you get it.  You need the gear to be part of the club,   But don’t expect that having the gear will make you stand out from the club.

This isn’t an argument about having the right gear, or not, it’s about that gear providing you with a usp which enables your business to outcompete others.

Of course. But again, to enable the business to outcompete, it requires the right gear to start with. If my competitor is using a 50 MP camera and making more business than me due to that, should I not buy a 50 MP camera?

errr... yeah.

You cant build a business on having a particular bit of gear, but that doesn’t mean you don’t need the right gear.

Of course, what am saying all along? The right gear today for many applications is 50 MP+ cameras, like it or not.

name a field in photography that the customer requires 150mb images.

What it means is your business must be based on your art.

I can make wonderful art with my 24 MP camera, but if the customer requires 50 MP files, tough luck.

how is meeting your customers basic needs going to differentiate your offer from others?? In fact,  it’s gonna be exactly the same as your competitors,  unless you have another usp.

but by all means, go out and buy all the gear, then bang up your website with that listed, and see how many customers you get.

If I could make great art with 24 MP cameras, or 16 MP cameras, I will make great art with 50 MP cameras.

no ones stopping you.

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Truman Prevatt
Truman Prevatt Veteran Member • Posts: 9,448
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?

Erik Kaffehr wrote:

jjz2 wrote:

While I’m not shooting high mp at the time, it does make a difference. A few years ago in 2015 I was using “only” 24 mp camera and went on safari... I had seen my own photos, on my normal laptop... then went to my wife’s relatives house that had a 70” 4K screen to look at images on...wow... didn’t know my photography looked that good. So yes, I get it.

Well, 4K is 8 294 400 pixels, that is 8 MP or around 13 MP, using the 24x36 mm aspect ratio.

It is often said that something like 180 PPI is needed for an excellent print. So, printing 30" x 45" needs 44 MP, at least for close scrutiny.

Best regards

Erik

For high quality prints the standard is 300 dpi. You can get away with 180 but it is not going to produce the same smoothness in gradation as 300 dpi. So for a 4000x6000 sensor that would result in a print size of about 13x20 without any potential compromise.

https://vsellis.com/understanding-dpi-resolution-and-print-vs-web-images/

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biza43 Forum Pro • Posts: 10,557
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?

NottsPhoto wrote:

biza43 wrote:

But in order to do so, the photog needs to have access to the gear, right? Some work for agencies and have a gear poll from which to use. Others need to buy the gear to use in their studio, in the field, etc. In the end, the gear needs to exist and to be made.

now you get it. You need the gear to be part of the club, But don’t expect that having the gear will make you stand out from the club.

This isn’t an argument about having the right gear, or not, it’s about that gear providing you with a usp which enables your business to outcompete others.

Of course. But again, to enable the business to outcompete, it requires the right gear to start with. If my competitor is using a 50 MP camera and making more business than me due to that, should I not buy a 50 MP camera?

errr... yeah.

You cant build a business on having a particular bit of gear, but that doesn’t mean you don’t need the right gear.

Of course, what am saying all along? The right gear today for many applications is 50 MP+ cameras, like it or not.

name a field in photography that the customer requires 150mb images.

What it means is your business must be based on your art.

I can make wonderful art with my 24 MP camera, but if the customer requires 50 MP files, tough luck.

how is meeting your customers basic needs going to differentiate your offer from others?? In fact, it’s gonna be exactly the same as your competitors, unless you have another usp.

but by all means, go out and buy all the gear, then bang up your website with that listed, and see how many customers you get.

If I could make great art with 24 MP cameras, or 16 MP cameras, I will make great art with 50 MP cameras.

no ones stopping you.

1. What if my client needs are 61 MP res files? I will need to buy the camera, case closed.

2. You need to be part before being able to stand up or out.

3. I wrote 50 MP+, not 150 MP. In any case, I am sure that Fuji, Hasselblad, and Phase 1 are all wrong, making all those high res MF cameras...

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biza43 Forum Pro • Posts: 10,557
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?

NottsPhoto wrote:

name a field in photography that the customer requires 150mb images.

Forgot this one: portrait, studio, landscape. And again, where did I mention 150 MP? The top these days stops at 100 MP.

BTW, the new Sony can do 240 MP with pixel shift. That could be a differentiator. In fact, being an early adopter of new tech can be a key differentiator amongst a pool of photographers.

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michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 13,407
Re: A counterpoint

Joachim Gerstl wrote:

Except it doesn't. It is full frame so no built in teleconverter like with APS-C. That 61 MP are just 30 MP in crop. What you want is a super high res crop camera.

However, you need to take into account that you can get 500 and 600mm lenses for full frame Nikon, Canon, and Sony cameras.  The longest you can get for Fuji is 400mm.

So all back to even again.

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Todd Jones
Todd Jones Senior Member • Posts: 1,469
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?

biza43 wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

name a field in photography that the customer requires 150mb images.

Forgot this one: portrait, studio, landscape. And again, where did I mention 150 MP? The top these days stops at 100 MP.

I'm pretty sure he said 150mb files NOT 150mp camera

BTW, the new Sony can do 240 MP with pixel shift. That could be a differentiator. In fact, being an early adopter of new tech can be a key differentiator amongst a pool of photographers.

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stevo23 Forum Pro • Posts: 22,460
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?

biza43 wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

biza43 wrote:

But in order to do so, the photog needs to have access to the gear, right? Some work for agencies and have a gear poll from which to use. Others need to buy the gear to use in their studio, in the field, etc. In the end, the gear needs to exist and to be made.

now you get it. You need the gear to be part of the club, But don’t expect that having the gear will make you stand out from the club.

This isn’t an argument about having the right gear, or not, it’s about that gear providing you with a usp which enables your business to outcompete others.

Of course. But again, to enable the business to outcompete, it requires the right gear to start with. If my competitor is using a 50 MP camera and making more business than me due to that, should I not buy a 50 MP camera?

errr... yeah.

You cant build a business on having a particular bit of gear, but that doesn’t mean you don’t need the right gear.

Of course, what am saying all along? The right gear today for many applications is 50 MP+ cameras, like it or not.

name a field in photography that the customer requires 150mb images.

When I was doing corporate work, my photographer had a client who painted fine art oil for vintners in California. The client wanted copy art for offset reproductions of his work and required the highest resolution possible. So my friend used a 4x5 scan back that produced 150Mb files. I'm not sure how that equates to the 100Mp Fuji today, but there you go - 150Mp images.

What it means is your business must be based on your art.

I can make wonderful art with my 24 MP camera, but if the customer requires 50 MP files, tough luck.

how is meeting your customers basic needs going to differentiate your offer from others?? In fact, it’s gonna be exactly the same as your competitors, unless you have another usp.

but by all means, go out and buy all the gear, then bang up your website with that listed, and see how many customers you get.

If I could make great art with 24 MP cameras, or 16 MP cameras, I will make great art with 50 MP cameras.

no ones stopping you.

1. What if my client needs are 61 MP res files? I will need to buy the camera, case closed.

2. You need to be part before being able to stand up or out.

3. I wrote 50 MP+, not 150 MP. In any case, I am sure that Fuji, Hasselblad, and Phase 1 are all wrong, making all those high res MF cameras...

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NottsPhoto Senior Member • Posts: 1,686
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?

biza43 wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

biza43 wrote:

But in order to do so, the photog needs to have access to the gear, right? Some work for agencies and have a gear poll from which to use. Others need to buy the gear to use in their studio, in the field, etc. In the end, the gear needs to exist and to be made.

now you get it. You need the gear to be part of the club, But don’t expect that having the gear will make you stand out from the club.

This isn’t an argument about having the right gear, or not, it’s about that gear providing you with a usp which enables your business to outcompete others.

Of course. But again, to enable the business to outcompete, it requires the right gear to start with. If my competitor is using a 50 MP camera and making more business than me due to that, should I not buy a 50 MP camera?

errr... yeah.

You cant build a business on having a particular bit of gear, but that doesn’t mean you don’t need the right gear.

Of course, what am saying all along? The right gear today for many applications is 50 MP+ cameras, like it or not.

name a field in photography that the customer requires 150mb images.

What it means is your business must be based on your art.

I can make wonderful art with my 24 MP camera, but if the customer requires 50 MP files, tough luck.

how is meeting your customers basic needs going to differentiate your offer from others?? In fact, it’s gonna be exactly the same as your competitors, unless you have another usp.

but by all means, go out and buy all the gear, then bang up your website with that listed, and see how many customers you get.

If I could make great art with 24 MP cameras, or 16 MP cameras, I will make great art with 50 MP cameras.

no ones stopping you.

1. What if my client needs are 61 MP res files? I will need to buy the camera, case closed.

2. You need to be part before being able to stand up or out.

3. I wrote 50 MP+, not 150 MP. In any case, I am sure that Fuji, Hasselblad, and Phase 1 are all wrong, making all those high res MF cameras...

You do realise the difference between MP and MB don’t you????

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onlyfreeman
onlyfreeman Senior Member • Posts: 1,693
It's the future

More pixels are better, and we will need them for ultra high resolution displays of the future. Displaying 24 MP images on 132 MP display (16K) will be kind of strange.

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John Gellings Veteran Member • Posts: 5,403
Re: It's the future
1
  1. onlyfreeman wrote:

More pixels are better, and we will need them for ultra high resolution displays of the future. Displaying 24 MP images on 132 MP display (16K) will be kind of strange.

Huh?  I see low resolution images on high resolution screens all of the time.

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onlyfreeman
onlyfreeman Senior Member • Posts: 1,693
Re: It's the future

John Gellings wrote:

  1. onlyfreeman wrote:

More pixels are better, and we will need them for ultra high resolution displays of the future. Displaying 24 MP images on 132 MP display (16K) will be kind of strange.

Huh? I see low resolution images on high resolution screens all of the time.

Maybe I should have written "want", instead of "need".

I'm sure many people view low resolution images and video on 4K or greater resolution displays, but they don't look as good as higher resolution images. People always want better, and more, so it's only natural the companies will deliver it.

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John Gellings Veteran Member • Posts: 5,403
Re: It's the future

onlyfreeman wrote:

John Gellings wrote:

  1. onlyfreeman wrote:

More pixels are better, and we will need them for ultra high resolution displays of the future. Displaying 24 MP images on 132 MP display (16K) will be kind of strange.

Huh? I see low resolution images on high resolution screens all of the time.

Maybe I should have written "want", instead of "need".

I'm sure many people view low resolution images and video on 4K or greater resolution displays, but they don't look as good as higher resolution images. People always want better, and more, so it's only natural the companies will deliver it.

Agreed, the industry will push forward... but we are always dealing with legacy technology and photos will be the same.

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lewiedude2
lewiedude2 Senior Member • Posts: 1,483
Re: It's the future
2

Old Ricoh User wrote:

https://petapixel.com/2019/07/19/is-sonys-pace-of-innovation-actually-hurting-the-photo-industry/

Total waste of the time I spent reading and I stopped when the author reasoned the point that was being made where Sony, as a conglomerate, can spend more on R&D than Canon and Fuji. Sure, more than Nikon or Leica, but Canon and Fuji?? How are those two MAJOR conglomerates at a disadvantage with Sony and are labeled as companies not innovating by way of R&D leading to productively innovative products???? Sure, Canon was slow to get to the mirrorless sector, but they did. Fuji? They have been innovating like crazy since the X-T1. Come on. This thread needs to get euthanized.

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MikePennPhoto
MikePennPhoto Senior Member • Posts: 1,095
Re: It's the future
1

lewiedude2 wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

https://petapixel.com/2019/07/19/is-sonys-pace-of-innovation-actually-hurting-the-photo-industry/

Total waste of the time I spent reading and I stopped when the author reasoned the point that was being made where Sony, as a conglomerate, can spend more on R&D than Canon and Fuji. Sure, more than Nikon or Leica, but Canon and Fuji?? How are those two MAJOR conglomerates at a disadvantage with Sony and are labeled as companies not innovating by way of R&D leading to productively innovative products???? Sure, Canon was slow to get to the mirrorless sector, but they did. Fuji? They have been innovating like crazy since the X-T1. Come on. This thread needs to get euthanized.

Who has made the majority of the sensors for these cameras up until last year ? Sony is far ahead of Canon and somewhat ahead of Fuji which is a good thing. Fuji is still making cameras for photographers first and not gear heads even though some on here act like one. If Fuji was they would already have consumer grade cameras that were 36 or 50 megapixels, they would have 5 way stabilization, they would have 3 or 4 variations of the same camera, and they would be upgrading their cameras every 9 months. Don't compare Fuji to Sony and pray to God they don't try to become like them

onlyfreeman
onlyfreeman Senior Member • Posts: 1,693
Hurting the industry?

Old Ricoh User wrote:

https://petapixel.com/2019/07/19/is-sonys-pace-of-innovation-actually-hurting-the-photo-industry/

What this article says to me is that Sony is "hurting" the other camera companies, by taking their customers, mostly Canon and Nikon.

This apparently translates to "hurting the industry", maybe, assuming eventually Sony kills off all competition.

The other companies only have themselves to blame for doing nothing anyway. Only Fuji appear to have a solid plan to stay in the fight.

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robert1955 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,395
Re: It's the future

Old Ricoh User wrote:

lewiedude2 wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

https://petapixel.com/2019/07/19/is-sonys-pace-of-innovation-actually-hurting-the-photo-industry/

How about this: if it is on petapixel it is probably click bait and not worth your time

Total waste of the time I spent reading and I stopped when

you stopped to early, because there was also a gem about the annual refresh rate, in which he counted all A7 models as one to get such a rate

the author reasoned the point that was being made where Sony, as a conglomerate, can spend more on R&D

They could in theory, but in a diversified conglomerate divisions either have to generate their onw R&D money or compete internally

than Canon and Fuji. Sure, more than Nikon or Leica, but Canon and Fuji?? How are those two MAJOR conglomerates at a disadvantage with Sony and are labeled as companies not innovating by way of R&D leading to productively innovative products???? Sure, Canon was slow to get to the mirrorless sector, but they did. Fuji? They have been innovating like crazy since the X-T1. Come on. This thread needs to get euthanized.

Who has made the majority of the sensors for these cameras up until last year ?

With the market shares I'd say Canon is the biggest maker of photographic sensors

Sony is far ahead of Canon and somewhat ahead of Fuji which is a good thing. Fuji is still making cameras for photographers first and not gear heads even though some on here act like one. If Fuji was they would already have consumer grade cameras that were 36 or 50 megapixels, they would have 5 way stabilization, they would have 3 or 4 variations of the same camera,

all xtrans cameras of the same generation are basically the same camera

and they would be upgrading their cameras every 9 months. Don't compare Fuji to Sony and pray to God they don't try to become like them

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stevo23 Forum Pro • Posts: 22,460
Re: It's the future

Old Ricoh User wrote:

https://petapixel.com/2019/07/19/is-sonys-pace-of-innovation-actually-hurting-the-photo-industry/

The writer is pure hack splat. Heritage? He apparently knows nothing of business or business survival.

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misterodd
misterodd Senior Member • Posts: 1,284
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?

Much of what you ask and speak of is determined and driven by the logic of Consumer Society.

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