Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?

Started 3 months ago | Discussions
Erik Kaffehr
Erik Kaffehr Senior Member • Posts: 3,037
Not much of a race..

Hi,

Pixels are getting smaller. One of the reasons is that the wiring and transistors are getting smaller so the balance between wiring and active area of the photodiode is getting smaller.

Another trend is BSI, back side illumination. BSI essentially move the wiring behind the sensor.

All that really means is that optimal size of the pixel gets smaller. It is of course true that reducing the size of the pixel reduces both DR and noise at the pixel level, but having more pixels compensates for that.

Modern small pixel sensors have better SNR and DR than older large pixel sensors. Best demonstration may be the Sony A7xx that is made in 12, 24, 42 and 61 MP variations.

Here you see that the 42 MP A7rIII performs as good as the 24 MP A7II! and mostly better than the 12 MP A7sII.

Keep also in mind that a 24 MP sensor has 6 MP red and blue pixels. That in connection with sampling means that say 24 MP sensors on 24x36 need antia aliasing filters, which throw away resolution. That is because there is a mismatch between the resolution of lenses and sensors.

Making the pixels smaller allows removal of the AA filters. But lenses may get better, if so aliasing will come back.

I think I bought my first 24 MP APS C-camera back in 2012. At present APS-C is around 26 MP, I think. Eight percent increase in seven years is not much of a race.

Now, taking that 26 MP and scaling up to 24x36 mm you get 61 MP and that is exactly where the Sony A7rIV is. Scale it up to 44x33 mm and you get the 102 MP used in the Fujifilm GFX 102 and going to 54x41 mm you end up with 151 MP sensor used in the Phase One IQ4150.

All those cameras use the same pixel design.

What I see is not a megapixel race, but rational development that makes perfect sense.

I would also say that old pixels having better colours is mostly a myth.

The images here were shot on:

  • Phase One P45+ (2007, Kodak CCD, 6.8 micron pixels, 49 x 37 mm sensor, 39 MP)
  • Sony Alpha 900 (2008, Sony CMOS, 6 microns, 24x36 mm, 24 MP)
  • Sony Alpha A7rII (2015, Sony CMOS, 4.5 microns, 24x36 mm, 42 MP)

Personally, I don't right now know which is which. Can you see a difference?!

Would you be interested in a detailed study, here is a layered TIFF:

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Temp/Tricolore/Stacked_with_samples.tif

The TIFF includes small patches of measured color from the actual fruits.

Best regards

Erik

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Erik Kaffehr
Erik Kaffehr Senior Member • Posts: 3,037
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?
1

Hi,

Cropping on the A7rIV to APS-C size will give you the same pixels as shooting with Fujifilm APS-C at 26 MP. What you need is a lens with longer focal length or smaller pixels.

A lens covering a larger image circle will always be larger and heavier so, if you crop your images a crop-size sensor may make more sense.

Best regards

Erik

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Threaded Senior Member • Posts: 2,664
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?
3

Batdude wrote:

Where, how and why did this resolution thing start to begin with? I mean, who on earth needs so much resolution??? I am going to guess that only a few photographers need such cameras. I certainly don't. Most of the stuff I do is for people to post it on facebook for them to post and view their photos on a phone. Simple as that. I have shot thousands and thousands of high quality photos with my 16MP cameras and so far nobody has require that I use a high resolution camera. Like I said, I am sure there are other fields where high res images are needed and that's totally cool with me.

I'm not happy regarding where the camera industry is heading why?

1) Having to edit large files for no good reason

2) Too time consuming

3) Will have to upgrade computer system and hardware. I just did that close to two years ago and I'm already starting to feel like the system I got is too slow and I'm only PP 16MP files. Yes for sure I have noticed that storage has gone down in price dramatically but still, what's the point?

Yeah I can simply select the lower resolution file size setting in the camera, but still, what's the point? Personally I don't like the look of images that come out of cameras that have all this cramped up megapixels. Images are starting to look like when I went from Plasma TV to LCD with that nasty ugly unpleasant soap opera look. I mean come on man is that where we are heading? And regarding Fuji IQ, I fell in love with Fuji some years ago when I discovered the S5 Pro by pure accident because someone posted some photos and they did look very different than the Nikon D7000 I was using at that time. But even now I'm not seeing and feeling that same love from the images coming out of the Fuji cameras. I'm just not seeing the same thing anymore guys sorry.

Are sensors with less resolution with bigger pixels really gone forever and are we never again going to get those gorgeous saturated looking pictures? I mean a reasonable amount of resolution is fine with me I have no beef with that but man I think this is getting way our of hand and I find all this ridiculous.

I can see the arguments about filesizes being too big and taking more time/expense to store and process etc... but when you start bemoaning "cramped up megapixels" and mourning the supposedly lost "saturated" images of the past, you've lost me, and I suspect this whole post is just another manifestation of your obsession with older gear and the mythical, magical sensors of yore.

There's nothing unsaturated about the output of the most recent sensors, the increase in megapixels over time is made possible by various improvements in the way these chips are designed and manufactured and does not inherently come at the expense of colour or anything else.  The whole smaller pixels = worse IQ rule only works when you're comparing sensor technologies of the same type and generation; it's not the case that this latest Sony is gathering any less light, colour, magic or fairy dust than your precious XT1's sensor, far from it in fact.

Newer sensors may well be delivering more resolution than you need, but this conceit that they're delivering less quality per pixel is false.

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biza43 Forum Pro • Posts: 10,500
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?
1

Batdude wrote:

Where, how and why did this resolution thing start to begin with?

Many years ago. It started with film scanners. Even before that, it started with fine grain film.

I mean, who on earth needs so much resolution??? I am going to guess that only a few photographers need such cameras. I certainly don't.

You are correct.

Most of the stuff I do is for people to post it on facebook for them to post and view their photos on a phone. Simple as that.

So you don't need it.

I have shot thousands and thousands of high quality photos with my 16MP cameras and so far nobody has require that I use a high resolution camera.

Many photographers have clients that require high resolutions. It has been like that for decades, where we had film sizes from 35mm to large format.

Like I said, I am sure there are other fields where high res images are needed and that's totally cool with me.

So what is your problem?

I'm not happy regarding where the camera industry is heading why?

1) Having to edit large files for no good reason

Again, this is not about you and what you require. Your logic is flawed - above you say that you are cool with others requiring such high res images, Then now you say that they are for no good reason... make up your mind...

2) Too time consuming

For you. There are very fast computers these days. It's all part of the imaging workflow.

3) Will have to upgrade computer system and hardware. I just did that close to two years ago and I'm already starting to feel like the system I got is too slow and I'm only PP 16MP files. Yes for sure I have noticed that storage has gone down in price dramatically but still, what's the point?

Indeed, what is the point you want to make? That you don't need high res cameras? That you don't like to process large files? That your computer is too slow?

Yeah I can simply select the lower resolution file size setting in the camera, but still, what's the point?

Indeed...

Personally I don't like the look of images that come out of cameras that have all this cramped up megapixels. Images are starting to look like when I went from Plasma TV to LCD with that nasty ugly unpleasant soap opera look.

Ok. But other photographers are making great images. Of course one must know how to use such gear. And adjust to client's requirements.

I mean come on man is that where we are heading? And regarding Fuji IQ, I fell in love with Fuji some years ago when I discovered the S5 Pro by pure accident because someone posted some photos and they did look very different than the Nikon D7000 I was using at that time. But even now I'm not seeing and feeling that same love from the images coming out of the Fuji cameras. I'm just not seeing the same thing anymore guys sorry.

You can still buy older cameras.

Are sensors with less resolution with bigger pixels really gone forever and are we never again going to get those gorgeous saturated looking pictures?

What has one thing to do with the other? Again, nothing prevents you to buy older cameras, they are quite cheap today.

I mean a reasonable amount of resolution is fine with me I have no beef with that but man I think this is getting way our of hand and I find all this ridiculous.

Ok, we get it.

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NextShowForSure Contributing Member • Posts: 765
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?

Difficult to see how the traditional DSLR user is going to want to jump in to this constant better by the minute technology churn that Sony are in to promoting. It would have thought it would be scary for a professional to think his gear is going to be obsolete in no time at all and depreciated in value by his old model in production but heavily discounted.

Is the Sony technology push going too fast and destabilising the industry. The user base is rattled also and tensions between brands and formats getting a bit nastier than usual.

biza43 Forum Pro • Posts: 10,500
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?

NottsPhoto wrote:

io_bg wrote:

Those pros who need to be on top of their game and offer more than what most amateurs and other pros are capable of. The A7 IV will soon follow for those who don't need so much resolution.

Any pro who differentiates himself by his gear, is wasting his time.

Right. That is why we do not see sports photogs using the big telephotos. they can shoot with a smartphone and get Federer's expression from afar... Any pro will adopt new technology and gear if it helps him to differentiate from its peers.

The customers don’t care about anything in excess of their needs technically, (most don’t even know what those are btw..) they want good pictures and more importantly, good service.

Maybe your customers do not care. Have you tried submitting your 12 MP or 16 MP images to professional image banks that are requiring increasingly higher res files?

they really don’t give a stuff if you use a 24mp or 60mp camera... just as long as... see above,

Right, if you say so.

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biza43 Forum Pro • Posts: 10,500
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?

This reminds me of the following improvements when they were introduced:

1. Who needs AF?

2. Who needs image stabilization?

3. Who needs higher resolution than X - number?

4. Nikon, when they said that FF digital was not necessary - at the time, Canon took the lead, and Nikon could not keep up.

5. Who needs eye - AF?

6. Etc...

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NextShowForSure Contributing Member • Posts: 765
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?
2

Threaded wrote:

Batdude wrote:

Where, how and why did this resolution thing start to begin with? I mean, who on earth needs so much resolution??? I am going to guess that only a few photographers need such cameras. I certainly don't. Most of the stuff I do is for people to post it on facebook for them to post and view their photos on a phone. Simple as that. I have shot thousands and thousands of high quality photos with my 16MP cameras and so far nobody has require that I use a high resolution camera. Like I said, I am sure there are other fields where high res images are needed and that's totally cool with me.

I'm not happy regarding where the camera industry is heading why?

1) Having to edit large files for no good reason

2) Too time consuming

3) Will have to upgrade computer system and hardware. I just did that close to two years ago and I'm already starting to feel like the system I got is too slow and I'm only PP 16MP files. Yes for sure I have noticed that storage has gone down in price dramatically but still, what's the point?

Yeah I can simply select the lower resolution file size setting in the camera, but still, what's the point? Personally I don't like the look of images that come out of cameras that have all this cramped up megapixels. Images are starting to look like when I went from Plasma TV to LCD with that nasty ugly unpleasant soap opera look. I mean come on man is that where we are heading? And regarding Fuji IQ, I fell in love with Fuji some years ago when I discovered the S5 Pro by pure accident because someone posted some photos and they did look very different than the Nikon D7000 I was using at that time. But even now I'm not seeing and feeling that same love from the images coming out of the Fuji cameras. I'm just not seeing the same thing anymore guys sorry.

Are sensors with less resolution with bigger pixels really gone forever and are we never again going to get those gorgeous saturated looking pictures? I mean a reasonable amount of resolution is fine with me I have no beef with that but man I think this is getting way our of hand and I find all this ridiculous.

I can see the arguments about filesizes being too big and taking more time/expense to store and process etc... but when you start bemoaning "cramped up megapixels" and mourning the supposedly lost "saturated" images of the past, you've lost me, and I suspect this whole post is just another manifestation of your obsession with older gear and the mythical, magical sensors of yore.

There's nothing unsaturated about the output of the most recent sensors, the increase in megapixels over time is made possible by various improvements in the way these chips are designed and manufactured and does not inherently come at the expense of colour or anything else. The whole smaller pixels = worse IQ rule only works when you're comparing sensor technologies of the same type and generation; it's not the case that this latest Sony is gathering any less light, colour, magic or fairy dust than your precious XT1's sensor, far from it in fact.

Newer sensors may well be delivering more resolution than you need, but this conceit that they're delivering less quality per pixel is false.

So sensor technology has advanced at such a rate that the 12mp A7S II is no longer needed and it can all be done with a 61mp sensor? This is a question not a statement so i will not argue the point.

Threaded Senior Member • Posts: 2,664
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?
1

NextShowForSure wrote:

Threaded wrote:

Batdude wrote:

Where, how and why did this resolution thing start to begin with? I mean, who on earth needs so much resolution??? I am going to guess that only a few photographers need such cameras. I certainly don't. Most of the stuff I do is for people to post it on facebook for them to post and view their photos on a phone. Simple as that. I have shot thousands and thousands of high quality photos with my 16MP cameras and so far nobody has require that I use a high resolution camera. Like I said, I am sure there are other fields where high res images are needed and that's totally cool with me.

I'm not happy regarding where the camera industry is heading why?

1) Having to edit large files for no good reason

2) Too time consuming

3) Will have to upgrade computer system and hardware. I just did that close to two years ago and I'm already starting to feel like the system I got is too slow and I'm only PP 16MP files. Yes for sure I have noticed that storage has gone down in price dramatically but still, what's the point?

Yeah I can simply select the lower resolution file size setting in the camera, but still, what's the point? Personally I don't like the look of images that come out of cameras that have all this cramped up megapixels. Images are starting to look like when I went from Plasma TV to LCD with that nasty ugly unpleasant soap opera look. I mean come on man is that where we are heading? And regarding Fuji IQ, I fell in love with Fuji some years ago when I discovered the S5 Pro by pure accident because someone posted some photos and they did look very different than the Nikon D7000 I was using at that time. But even now I'm not seeing and feeling that same love from the images coming out of the Fuji cameras. I'm just not seeing the same thing anymore guys sorry.

Are sensors with less resolution with bigger pixels really gone forever and are we never again going to get those gorgeous saturated looking pictures? I mean a reasonable amount of resolution is fine with me I have no beef with that but man I think this is getting way our of hand and I find all this ridiculous.

I can see the arguments about filesizes being too big and taking more time/expense to store and process etc... but when you start bemoaning "cramped up megapixels" and mourning the supposedly lost "saturated" images of the past, you've lost me, and I suspect this whole post is just another manifestation of your obsession with older gear and the mythical, magical sensors of yore.

There's nothing unsaturated about the output of the most recent sensors, the increase in megapixels over time is made possible by various improvements in the way these chips are designed and manufactured and does not inherently come at the expense of colour or anything else. The whole smaller pixels = worse IQ rule only works when you're comparing sensor technologies of the same type and generation; it's not the case that this latest Sony is gathering any less light, colour, magic or fairy dust than your precious XT1's sensor, far from it in fact.

Newer sensors may well be delivering more resolution than you need, but this conceit that they're delivering less quality per pixel is false.

So sensor technology has advanced at such a rate that the 12mp A7S II is no longer needed and it can all be done with a 61mp sensor? This is a question not a statement so i will not argue the point.

Batdude's not comparing to the A7S II. Batdude's talking about his old S5, and his (current) XT1, trust me.

The A7S and A7R coexist for a reason and use the same/similar generation sensors, comparing the two isn't the same as comparing the current R to a lower res camera from x years ago.

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GodSpeaks
GodSpeaks Forum Pro • Posts: 13,982
You don't like it, so it's wrong
1

Good argument... NOT.

You do not need/want the resolution, so don't buy the camera and ignore all the (over)hype.  The hype is also known as marketing.

Just buy/use what YOU need for a camera and don't worry about what others are doing/using.  Only someone who is very insecure would be worrying about any of this.

What are you going to do when Nikon and Canon announce their new 60+MP FF DSLR and/or mirrorless camera?  How did you react when Fuji announced their 100MP GFX?

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Erik Kaffehr
Erik Kaffehr Senior Member • Posts: 3,037
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?

Well, the A7sII is mainly a video camera. Video is pretty much limited to around 10 MP, today, that would be 4K recalculated for 24x36 mm aspect ratio.

Video use to be subsampled and the OLP (Optical Low Pass, AKA antialiasing) filter needs to be optimized for that low resolution.

There was never a A7sIII, probably because the A7rIII and and A7III could do a better job.

Best regards

Erik

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Erik Kaffehr
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WunWegWunDarWun Regular Member • Posts: 410
Probably not cannibalisation of prime lens sales.

Because even though 2x crop-zoom from a 60mp full frame still yields a 15mp image of m4/3rds size, you didn't pay for all that pixelage to settle for a quarter of it did you ?

third son
third son Senior Member • Posts: 2,448
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?
1

You are using cameras that have older technology. Why should you be worried about whether your computer can keep up? This is a waste of bandwidth.

You have historically went on about how these 16mp cameras are all you needed. What has changed?

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Sal Baker Forum Pro • Posts: 11,489
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?

Rob-in-Alberta wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

The Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

Batdude wrote:

Are sensors with less resolution with bigger pixels really gone forever

I more than understand what you are saying. We live in a world with a mostly insecure Millenial generation that aways needs the last and greatest with larger numbers. You don't have to look any farther the current smartphone situation. No way are the masses going to be caught holding last year's phone number. As for the camera gear heads it's an addiction that they can't stop. They never get to know their current camera before trading up. But for people like us there will always lots of discarded older used models. I have friends that search for specific camera models not only because the liked using it but because of cohesion in their work. They grab up Nikon D300, Ricoh GRD1, Leica M9, and numerous others made in the mid 2000s. Use what you like and screw the camera market.

It’s not the millennials buying this stuff, it’s the boomers. The millennials can’t afford it.

why do folks always blame them?

Because that's who I see walking around with the latest gear, that's who the camera store owners are telling me who is buying it, and most of the boomers I see walking around New York City and Philadelphia are either still using film or using 5+ year old gear.

e

too busy paying off their mortgages and saving for their retirement.

Well this right here tells me you're not in the U.S.

People don’t have mortgages outside of the U.K.?

Up to 40% of that generation either never left home or moved back in some cities. Outside of those they mostly rent. Sounds like they're much more responsible in the UK.

exactly. How do you think they can afford all these new cameras, when they can’t even afford a new home??

Most can't because they can't control their spending or saddle themselves with college loans they have no idea how they'll pay off. Most have a strange sense on what they deserve instead of earning. In the end they ARE the ones that I see with the latest gear. Even a manager at B&H told me this.

you hold a very negative view of your generations offspring. It’s not accurate in my experience.

Of course the manager of b and h told you that btw... he’s a sales guy and he plays to your prejudices...

but go away and do some research. This idea that millennials are feckless idiots is a gross misconception of the truth. They are the product of the world you created, no more no less, and they are neither less no more feckless than previous generations, but they are stuck with a far worse level of affordability for major assets such as homes, than the boomers, and far less job security.

One the vast majority are not offspring from my generation. Two you don't even know what generation I'm from. Third thanks for the good laugh. The jobless rate is at it's lowest levels in decades. The mortgage are nearing their all time low unlike the 18% of the 1980s. The vast majority of their non-existent real life problems was created by them. As for B&H, I've known the manager for 15 years and as an adult he doesn't play childish games.

He sells cameras at b and h. He’s not the messiah.

I despair at how people cast aspirations around about millennials... but I guess everyone needs someone to blame, and now that racism is pretty much a no no, You might as well blame those pesky kids.

Though I fail to see how that’s any different mind.

“The vast majority of their non-existent real life problems was created by them.“

Amazing how sometimes we fail to see the hypocrisy of what we believe.

Sounds like you have some growing up to do yourself. Now go away and consider yourself on ignore. Bye, bye.

“People try to pu-pu-put us down...just because we get around”

I think Taylor swift wrote that for the millennials that just want a damn Sony A7RIV

That was written in 1996 by The Who.

Sal

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Threaded Senior Member • Posts: 2,664
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?

Sal Baker wrote:

Rob-in-Alberta wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

The Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

Batdude wrote:

Are sensors with less resolution with bigger pixels really gone forever

I more than understand what you are saying. We live in a world with a mostly insecure Millenial generation that aways needs the last and greatest with larger numbers. You don't have to look any farther the current smartphone situation. No way are the masses going to be caught holding last year's phone number. As for the camera gear heads it's an addiction that they can't stop. They never get to know their current camera before trading up. But for people like us there will always lots of discarded older used models. I have friends that search for specific camera models not only because the liked using it but because of cohesion in their work. They grab up Nikon D300, Ricoh GRD1, Leica M9, and numerous others made in the mid 2000s. Use what you like and screw the camera market.

It’s not the millennials buying this stuff, it’s the boomers. The millennials can’t afford it.

why do folks always blame them?

Because that's who I see walking around with the latest gear, that's who the camera store owners are telling me who is buying it, and most of the boomers I see walking around New York City and Philadelphia are either still using film or using 5+ year old gear.

e

too busy paying off their mortgages and saving for their retirement.

Well this right here tells me you're not in the U.S.

People don’t have mortgages outside of the U.K.?

Up to 40% of that generation either never left home or moved back in some cities. Outside of those they mostly rent. Sounds like they're much more responsible in the UK.

exactly. How do you think they can afford all these new cameras, when they can’t even afford a new home??

Most can't because they can't control their spending or saddle themselves with college loans they have no idea how they'll pay off. Most have a strange sense on what they deserve instead of earning. In the end they ARE the ones that I see with the latest gear. Even a manager at B&H told me this.

you hold a very negative view of your generations offspring. It’s not accurate in my experience.

Of course the manager of b and h told you that btw... he’s a sales guy and he plays to your prejudices...

but go away and do some research. This idea that millennials are feckless idiots is a gross misconception of the truth. They are the product of the world you created, no more no less, and they are neither less no more feckless than previous generations, but they are stuck with a far worse level of affordability for major assets such as homes, than the boomers, and far less job security.

One the vast majority are not offspring from my generation. Two you don't even know what generation I'm from. Third thanks for the good laugh. The jobless rate is at it's lowest levels in decades. The mortgage are nearing their all time low unlike the 18% of the 1980s. The vast majority of their non-existent real life problems was created by them. As for B&H, I've known the manager for 15 years and as an adult he doesn't play childish games.

He sells cameras at b and h. He’s not the messiah.

I despair at how people cast aspirations around about millennials... but I guess everyone needs someone to blame, and now that racism is pretty much a no no, You might as well blame those pesky kids.

Though I fail to see how that’s any different mind.

“The vast majority of their non-existent real life problems was created by them.“

Amazing how sometimes we fail to see the hypocrisy of what we believe.

Sounds like you have some growing up to do yourself. Now go away and consider yourself on ignore. Bye, bye.

“People try to pu-pu-put us down...just because we get around”

I think Taylor swift wrote that for the millennials that just want a damn Sony A7RIV

That was written in 1996 by The Who.

Sal

Yes, definitely the nineties.

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third son
third son Senior Member • Posts: 2,448
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?
1

Sal Baker wrote:

Rob-in-Alberta wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

The Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

NottsPhoto wrote:

Old Ricoh User wrote:

Batdude wrote:

Are sensors with less resolution with bigger pixels really gone forever

I more than understand what you are saying. We live in a world with a mostly insecure Millenial generation that aways needs the last and greatest with larger numbers. You don't have to look any farther the current smartphone situation. No way are the masses going to be caught holding last year's phone number. As for the camera gear heads it's an addiction that they can't stop. They never get to know their current camera before trading up. But for people like us there will always lots of discarded older used models. I have friends that search for specific camera models not only because the liked using it but because of cohesion in their work. They grab up Nikon D300, Ricoh GRD1, Leica M9, and numerous others made in the mid 2000s. Use what you like and screw the camera market.

It’s not the millennials buying this stuff, it’s the boomers. The millennials can’t afford it.

why do folks always blame them?

Because that's who I see walking around with the latest gear, that's who the camera store owners are telling me who is buying it, and most of the boomers I see walking around New York City and Philadelphia are either still using film or using 5+ year old gear.

e

too busy paying off their mortgages and saving for their retirement.

Well this right here tells me you're not in the U.S.

People don’t have mortgages outside of the U.K.?

Up to 40% of that generation either never left home or moved back in some cities. Outside of those they mostly rent. Sounds like they're much more responsible in the UK.

exactly. How do you think they can afford all these new cameras, when they can’t even afford a new home??

Most can't because they can't control their spending or saddle themselves with college loans they have no idea how they'll pay off. Most have a strange sense on what they deserve instead of earning. In the end they ARE the ones that I see with the latest gear. Even a manager at B&H told me this.

you hold a very negative view of your generations offspring. It’s not accurate in my experience.

Of course the manager of b and h told you that btw... he’s a sales guy and he plays to your prejudices...

but go away and do some research. This idea that millennials are feckless idiots is a gross misconception of the truth. They are the product of the world you created, no more no less, and they are neither less no more feckless than previous generations, but they are stuck with a far worse level of affordability for major assets such as homes, than the boomers, and far less job security.

One the vast majority are not offspring from my generation. Two you don't even know what generation I'm from. Third thanks for the good laugh. The jobless rate is at it's lowest levels in decades. The mortgage are nearing their all time low unlike the 18% of the 1980s. The vast majority of their non-existent real life problems was created by them. As for B&H, I've known the manager for 15 years and as an adult he doesn't play childish games.

He sells cameras at b and h. He’s not the messiah.

I despair at how people cast aspirations around about millennials... but I guess everyone needs someone to blame, and now that racism is pretty much a no no, You might as well blame those pesky kids.

Though I fail to see how that’s any different mind.

“The vast majority of their non-existent real life problems was created by them.“

Amazing how sometimes we fail to see the hypocrisy of what we believe.

Sounds like you have some growing up to do yourself. Now go away and consider yourself on ignore. Bye, bye.

“People try to pu-pu-put us down...just because we get around”

I think Taylor swift wrote that for the millennials that just want a damn Sony A7RIV

That was written in 1996 by The Who.

Sal

I think it was 1965

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Todd Jones
Todd Jones Senior Member • Posts: 1,461
Re: A counterpoint

dv312 wrote:

I agree for most intents and purposes, 26MP would be sufficient

But if you do birding like myself, cropping would be the norm so the more pixels the merrier for you can never get close enough to the birds

Instead of carrying longer and heavier lenses, you'd shoot with larger density sensors and crop at post

61MP is not outrageously excessive if you have to crop 50%, 70% (this is perfectly normal in birding)

I'd love to have Fuji offer a larger MP sensor just for that reason alone

For now that A7R4 looks mightily attractive at least for my needs

Cheers,

Sad thing is though that I don't think wireless technology will ever be able to keep up with the megapixel race. How nice it would be to have your images instantly transfer to a phone, drive or laptop, even in bursts! And it could even eliminate the need for a second card slot?!?

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Wildabobalore Regular Member • Posts: 329
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?
3

NottsPhoto wrote:

you hold a very negative view of your generations offspring. It’s not accurate in my experience.

Of course the manager of b and h told you that btw... he’s a sales guy and he plays to your prejudices...

but go away and do some research. This idea that millennials are feckless idiots is a gross misconception of the truth. They are the product of the world you created, no more no less, and they are neither less no more feckless than previous generations, but they are stuck with a far worse level of affordability for major assets such as homes, than the boomers, and far less job security.

Thank you for being a voice of reason in this thread. I too live in the US and the only photographers I see running around with the latest and greatest and $5000 worth of lenses are boomers. Millenials I know can barely upgrade from their 4+ year old Rebel DSLRS to even consider which brand new MILC is going to be worth $2000+ of their hard earned money.

The DPR forums are the absolute perfect example of this. There are daily threads of boomers asking whether they should spend $15k on which system because they have to have the newest and greatest AF and the newest and fasted holy trinity for each system.

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Todd Jones
Todd Jones Senior Member • Posts: 1,461
Re: Not much of a race..

Erik Kaffehr wrote:

Hi,

Pixels are getting smaller. One of the reasons is that the wiring and transistors are getting smaller so the balance between wiring and active area of the photodiode is getting smaller.

Another trend is BSI, back side illumination. BSI essentially move the wiring behind the sensor.

All that really means is that optimal size of the pixel gets smaller. It is of course true that reducing the size of the pixel reduces both DR and noise at the pixel level, but having more pixels compensates for that.

Modern small pixel sensors have better SNR and DR than older large pixel sensors. Best demonstration may be the Sony A7xx that is made in 12, 24, 42 and 61 MP variations.

Here you see that the 42 MP A7rIII performs as good as the 24 MP A7II! and mostly better than the 12 MP A7sII.

Keep also in mind that a 24 MP sensor has 6 MP red and blue pixels. That in connection with sampling means that say 24 MP sensors on 24x36 need antia aliasing filters, which throw away resolution. That is because there is a mismatch between the resolution of lenses and sensors.

Making the pixels smaller allows removal of the AA filters. But lenses may get better, if so aliasing will come back.

I think I bought my first 24 MP APS C-camera back in 2012. At present APS-C is around 26 MP, I think. Eight percent increase in seven years is not much of a race.

Now, taking that 26 MP and scaling up to 24x36 mm you get 61 MP and that is exactly where the Sony A7rIV is. Scale it up to 44x33 mm and you get the 102 MP used in the Fujifilm GFX 102 and going to 54x41 mm you end up with 151 MP sensor used in the Phase One IQ4150.

All those cameras use the same pixel design.

What I see is not a megapixel race, but rational development that makes perfect sense.

I would also say that old pixels having better colours is mostly a myth.

The images here were shot on:

  • Phase One P45+ (2007, Kodak CCD, 6.8 micron pixels, 49 x 37 mm sensor, 39 MP)
  • Sony Alpha 900 (2008, Sony CMOS, 6 microns, 24x36 mm, 24 MP)
  • Sony Alpha A7rII (2015, Sony CMOS, 4.5 microns, 24x36 mm, 42 MP)

Personally, I don't right now know which is which. Can you see a difference?!

No, not in megapixels either, that's the point. We need a megapixel hungry photographer on here to show us why he/she needed that much for professional work and why they couldn't use a longer lens instead. I'm sure it's needed by few but I'd guess not many. I'm not talking about a bird photograph  with a 200mm lens and cropped 1:1 that you post here or show your wife because you don't have a 600mm lens.

Heck, I remember "real" photographers on here making fun of the point and shoot crowd because of their obsession with megapixels. Boy have the tables turned!

I no I'm not good enough as a photographer for 24 megapixels let alone 60. I'm glad for those that are!

Would you be interested in a detailed study, here is a layered TIFF:

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Temp/Tricolore/Stacked_with_samples.tif

The TIFF includes small patches of measured color from the actual fruits.

Best regards

Erik

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Erik Kaffehr
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Magic uses to disappear in controlled experiments…
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Todd Jones
Todd Jones Senior Member • Posts: 1,461
Re: Where Is the Camera Industry Headed In this Ridiculous Resolution War?

biza43 wrote:

Batdude wrote:

Where, how and why did this resolution thing start to begin with?

Many years ago. It started with film scanners. Even before that, it started with fine grain film.

I mean, who on earth needs so much resolution??? I am going to guess that only a few photographers need such cameras. I certainly don't.

You are correct.

Most of the stuff I do is for people to post it on facebook for them to post and view their photos on a phone. Simple as that.

So you don't need it.

I have shot thousands and thousands of high quality photos with my 16MP cameras and so far nobody has require that I use a high resolution camera.

Many photographers have clients that require high resolutions. It has been like that for decades, where we had film sizes from 35mm to large format.

For what end result is that mp needed or could they be caught up by by the mp race, please explain or show that need in use? Thanks

Like I said, I am sure there are other fields where high res images are needed and that's totally cool with me.

So what is your problem?

I'm not happy regarding where the camera industry is heading why?

1) Having to edit large files for no good reason

Again, this is not about you and what you require. Your logic is flawed - above you say that you are cool with others requiring such high res images, Then now you say that they are for no good reason... make up your mind...

2) Too time consuming

For you. There are very fast computers these days. It's all part of the imaging workflow.

3) Will have to upgrade computer system and hardware. I just did that close to two years ago and I'm already starting to feel like the system I got is too slow and I'm only PP 16MP files. Yes for sure I have noticed that storage has gone down in price dramatically but still, what's the point?

Indeed, what is the point you want to make? That you don't need high res cameras? That you don't like to process large files? That your computer is too slow?

Yeah I can simply select the lower resolution file size setting in the camera, but still, what's the point?

Indeed...

Personally I don't like the look of images that come out of cameras that have all this cramped up megapixels. Images are starting to look like when I went from Plasma TV to LCD with that nasty ugly unpleasant soap opera look.

Ok. But other photographers are making great images. Of course one must know how to use such gear. And adjust to client's requirements.

I mean come on man is that where we are heading? And regarding Fuji IQ, I fell in love with Fuji some years ago when I discovered the S5 Pro by pure accident because someone posted some photos and they did look very different than the Nikon D7000 I was using at that time. But even now I'm not seeing and feeling that same love from the images coming out of the Fuji cameras. I'm just not seeing the same thing anymore guys sorry.

You can still buy older cameras.

Are sensors with less resolution with bigger pixels really gone forever and are we never again going to get those gorgeous saturated looking pictures?

What has one thing to do with the other? Again, nothing prevents you to buy older cameras, they are quite cheap today.

I mean a reasonable amount of resolution is fine with me I have no beef with that but man I think this is getting way our of hand and I find all this ridiculous.

Ok, we get it.

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