Z6 kit eBay listing $2,049 plus taxes.. too good to be true?

Started 2 months ago | Questions
Jay A Senior Member • Posts: 2,031
Re: Z6 kit eBay listing $2,049 plus taxes.. too good to be true?

Be aware too that Adorama (and B&H) do sell grey market merchandise as well as US merchandise, or at least they have in the past. So it may still be possible to buy grey market from them. Always ask when buying if it is a Nikon USA item with a Nikon USA warranty.

A USA warranty in itself may not be a "NIKON USA" warranty. Again, ask.

peripheralfocus Veteran Member • Posts: 4,417
Nikon uses UPP, not MAP
2

Horshack wrote:

Like all Nikon USA dealers, Adorama doesn't advertise or list Nikon gear below MAP.

Tiny point, but just for reference: Nikon USA no longer has an MAP policy or price. MAP is the old, weaker price maintenance system.

Nikon USA now has what is known as a Unilateral Pricing Program (or policy), or UPP. It's also often just called unilateral pricing. This is a stronger minimum price maintenance system. So Nikon dealers in the U.S. are not allowed to sell below the UPP price, or unilateral price.

As far as I can tell, only Canon is still using the old MAP system. Sony uses unilateral pricing. They were the first to adopt it when it was ruled no longer per se (i.e. in all cases) illegal in 2007. But Sony was doing it illegally for decades before that (as many manufacturers did; it was not successfully challenged or prosecuted all that often).

I believe Ricoh (Pentax) and Olympus both moved to it a few years ago, and although I haven't heard directly about Panasonic, I'd be amazed if they aren't using UPP as well.

It has become pervasive in other industries as well. A very wide swath of the American retail landscape is now governed by unilateral pricing. It was even the subject of a mini revolt against federal jurisprudence by the state of Utah a few years ago in relation to the contact lens industry. (1-800-Contacts is headquartered in Utah). You can Google that very interesting dispute, if you're at all curious about such things.

Horshack Veteran Member • Posts: 7,922
Re: Z6 kit eBay listing $2,049 plus taxes.. too good to be true?

Jay A wrote:

Be aware too that Adorama (and B&H) do sell grey market merchandise as well as US merchandise, or at least they have in the past. So it may still be possible to buy grey market from them. Always ask when buying if it is a Nikon USA item with a Nikon USA warranty.

A USA warranty in itself may not be a "NIKON USA" warranty. Again, ask.

B&H used to sell some gray market Nikon gear years ago but when they did they clearly marked it as gray market. I haven't seen B&H selling gray market gear in some time. I don't recall Adorama ever selling Nikon gray market gear.

Horshack Veteran Member • Posts: 7,922
Re: Nikon uses UPP, not MAP

peripheralfocus wrote:

Horshack wrote:

Like all Nikon USA dealers, Adorama doesn't advertise or list Nikon gear below MAP.

Tiny point, but just for reference: Nikon USA no longer has an MAP policy or price. MAP is the old, weaker price maintenance system.

Nikon USA now has what is known as a Unilateral Pricing Program (or policy), or UPP. It's also often just called unilateral pricing. This is a stronger minimum price maintenance system. So Nikon dealers in the U.S. are not allowed to sell below the UPP price, or unilateral price.

As far as I can tell, only Canon is still using the old MAP system. Sony uses unilateral pricing. They were the first to adopt it when it was ruled no longer per se (i.e. in all cases) illegal in 2007. But Sony was doing it illegally for decades before that (as many manufacturers did; it was not successfully challenged or prosecuted all that often).

I believe Ricoh (Pentax) and Olympus both moved to it a few years ago, and although I haven't heard directly about Panasonic, I'd be amazed if they aren't using UPP as well.

It has become pervasive in other industries as well. A very wide swath of the American retail landscape is now governed by unilateral pricing. It was even the subject of a mini revolt against federal jurisprudence by the state of Utah a few years ago in relation to the contact lens industry. (1-800-Contacts is headquartered in Utah). You can Google that very interesting dispute, if you're at all curious about such things.

Awesome info, thanks for the heads-up.

hikerdoc Senior Member • Posts: 2,372
Re: Z6 kit eBay listing $2,049 plus taxes.. too good to be true?

My Z7 box actually did include a Nikon USA warranty card. I don’t think my D850 or D500 had the actual cards.

eques Veteran Member • Posts: 3,471
Re: Be careful.

BabySinclair wrote:

eques wrote:

I just lost a lot of money, because a criminal had hacked an ebay account. (The offer was good, about 10% under what I would expect, but not obviously too cheap.)

Better go to a reliable shop when $.$$$ are at stake. Then you actually get the camera and have no probelms returning it, if there are issues.

Peter

Oh my God! I'm so sorry!! Ive never heard of that happening. Unfortunately I'm not able to cancel my order.. now I'm stressing over something I could've avoided. Thanks for the heads up! And I hope eBay steps up and refunds you for your money.

Of course not. It was paid in advance, there is no refund. Not even a "sorry". They don't even provide the vendor's address in Europe, but then it probably would not have been the address I wanted, but the one of the person, whose account was hacked.

And yes, this happens quite often, as I read on the web after the loss.

The hacked account had 100% positive rating and I have checked it's complete history of sales. Also the description was very to the point: the seller wnated to switch to mirrorless, because his DSLRs are so heavy. The hac buyer's remorse and is now selling his mirrorless body.

At least I learned a lesson.

Peter

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eques Veteran Member • Posts: 3,471
Re: Be careful.

Horshack wrote:

eques wrote:

I just lost a lot of money, because a criminal had hacked an ebay account. (The offer was good, about 10% under what I would expect, but not obviously too cheap.)

Better go to a reliable shop when $.$$$ are at stake. Then you actually get the camera and have no probelms returning it, if there are issues.

Peter

I don't quite understand what your situation is. Did someone hack your account and then use your account to buy or sell a high-value item? If so, how did you lose money - eBay usually is pretty prompt with refunds or indemnity in that situation.

No, somebody hacked a private seller's account. And via this account with 100% positive feedback and long spotless selling history offered a camera, that probably never existed.

The camera was very little used (under 1k shutter actuations) and a recent, attractive model. Payment only was by paying in advance (no paypal etc.), so ebay doesn't refund anything.

The bank was a reputable German bank, but it can't call back the transferred money, because, as the police told me, the money gets transferred at once from there to a foreign bank and then is gone.

Lesson learned.

Peter

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fz750
fz750 Forum Member • Posts: 95
Re: Be careful.
1

Probably a bit late now, but the Z6 retail price here in Switzerland starts at $1795 and with lens $2099 and there's even an offer for the whole kit inc ftz adapter for $1949 (all inc 8% sales tax) - all with official CH warranty

Nikon has an instant cashback offer right now, which accounts for the lower prices.

So, that Ebay price in the USA for $2099 is not so abnormal for me..

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hikerdoc Senior Member • Posts: 2,372
Re: Be careful.

fz750 wrote:

Probably a bit late now, but the Z6 retail price here in Switzerland starts at $1795 and with lens $2099 and there's even an offer for the whole kit inc ftz adapter for $1949 (all inc 8% sales tax) - all with official CH warranty

Nikon has an instant cashback offer right now, which accounts for the lower prices.

So, that Ebay price in the USA for $2099 is not so abnormal for me..

While the price may not seem out of line in comparison to your region it is still a grey market camera in US, with all the warranty and service implications noted above, if it was obtained outside the authorized Nikon US network. Reputable authorized dealers in US get around the enforced MAP by offering add ons. They do not, will not, can not offer prices below that MAP. If one is averse to grey versions, a “great deal” in form of a lower price should be an instant redflag. My Z7 from B&H came with , instant cash back (Nikon), FTZ, B&W MRC-Nano filter, Sony 64GB XQD, Lowepro Adventura shoulder bag and free overnight shipping. Ostensibly I paid full price for the camera at $2396.97.

I hope things turn out OK for the OP, but if this EBay purchase is not through an authorized dealer it is at best an authorized Nikon US used camera without a transferable warranty, even if it is in an unopened box. However, service be purchased through Nikon in that case. More likely it is a grey version regardless of assurances by the seller. He can arrange warranty or recall service through that seller or hope to obtain paid service through several centers in US which service Nikon cameras.

I have had eight Nikon digital bodies and have never needed warranty service. The one repair service was done through Nikon, but probably could have been obtained through nonNikon facilities with a grey version. Chances are the OP will have the same experience in spite of this initial angst. 😀

Marty4650
Marty4650 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,406
Of course... it has a Nikon Warranty
1

BabySinclair wrote:

Horshack wrote:

Couldn't find that listing but it's not even the cheapest gray-market listing available on eBay. There's one for $1951 as well. The catch for both is there is no warranty service from Nikon or worse, Nikon USA will not work on the camera or lens even if you paid them to do so.

Yes, thats because I bought it. But im now a bit anxious about it. It said in the description it has Nikon Warranty so first thing I'll do is register it check the serial. Is there anything else I should look for to check if it's gray market?

Nikon doesn't sell cameras without warranties.

You do have a Nikon warranty, but it is only for the market that camera was intended for. In other words, you might have to send it back to Japan to have warranty work done on it free of charge during the warranty period.

There is absolutely nothing shady about this. The importer does the warranty work, and because of this they must charge you more than those grey market prices on ebay. And naturally, the importer has no obligation to repair cameras it didn't import.

This may not be a bad deal for you. You saved several hundred dollars by buying grey market goods. If the camera doesn't break down during the warranty period, then you are ahead. And even if it does, you still have a Nikon warranty, but it involves more time and expense to ship it in for service.

But there is a long range problem for you. If it breaks down.... say five years from now, which is statistically more likely, then Nikon USA could refuse to repair it or to sell parts for it. At this point, you could still have it repaired at your expense by Nikon Japan (or whoever the distributor was) but it could cost you more  for the repair and shipping, and could take a long time to get it back.

Nikon USA does this to impose a penalty on you for buying through some indirect channel.  Their local warranty "adds value" for the local buyer, and they have a right to charge extra for it.

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Horshack Veteran Member • Posts: 7,922
Re: Of course... it has a Nikon Warranty

Marty4650 wrote:

BabySinclair wrote:

Horshack wrote:

Couldn't find that listing but it's not even the cheapest gray-market listing available on eBay. There's one for $1951 as well. The catch for both is there is no warranty service from Nikon or worse, Nikon USA will not work on the camera or lens even if you paid them to do so.

Yes, thats because I bought it. But im now a bit anxious about it. It said in the description it has Nikon Warranty so first thing I'll do is register it check the serial. Is there anything else I should look for to check if it's gray market?

Nikon doesn't sell cameras without warranties.

You do have a Nikon warranty, but it is only for the market that camera was intended for. In other words, you might have to send it back to Japan to have warranty work done on it free of charge during the warranty period.

Most likely these come from Europe or Asia rather than Japan (typically wherever the currency arbitrage was greatest to allow the import to be obtained at best price), and you'd still need a dated receipt from the dealer in the origin country to establish the warranty coverage, which wont be available since the Nikon dealers unloading these into back-channels don't provide receipts to the wholesalers buying them.

There is absolutely nothing shady about this. The importer does the warranty work, and because of this they must charge you more than those grey market prices on ebay. And naturally, the importer has no obligation to repair cameras it didn't import.

See above.

James Stirling
James Stirling Senior Member • Posts: 5,018
Re: Of course... it has a Nikon Warranty

Horshack wrote:

Marty4650 wrote:

BabySinclair wrote:

Horshack wrote:

Couldn't find that listing but it's not even the cheapest gray-market listing available on eBay. There's one for $1951 as well. The catch for both is there is no warranty service from Nikon or worse, Nikon USA will not work on the camera or lens even if you paid them to do so.

Yes, thats because I bought it. But im now a bit anxious about it. It said in the description it has Nikon Warranty so first thing I'll do is register it check the serial. Is there anything else I should look for to check if it's gray market?

Nikon doesn't sell cameras without warranties.

You do have a Nikon warranty, but it is only for the market that camera was intended for. In other words, you might have to send it back to Japan to have warranty work done on it free of charge during the warranty period.

Most likely these come from Europe or Asia rather than Japan (typically wherever the currency arbitrage was greatest to allow the import to be obtained at best price), and you'd still need a dated receipt from the dealer in the origin country to establish the warranty coverage, which wont be available since the Nikon dealers unloading these into back-channels don't provide receipts to the wholesalers buying them.

There is absolutely nothing shady about this. The importer does the warranty work, and because of this they must charge you more than those grey market prices on ebay. And naturally, the importer has no obligation to repair cameras it didn't import.

See above.

I am not sure about the mechanism involved but Panamoz a grey market retailer selling here in the UK . Apart from offering a true 3yr UK based warranty { all repair work done by a long standing Glasgow firm } for all gear. Allows you to specifically use Nikon UK for any repairs or servicing , they are not the cheapest grey market company but they do offer very good warranties and have an excellent review record. I have used them a couple of times

https://panamoz.com/nikon-z7-mirrorless-camera-body-2470-f4-ftz-kit.html

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Jim Stirling:
It is not reason which is the guide of life, but custom. David Hume

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Horshack Veteran Member • Posts: 7,922
Re: Of course... it has a Nikon Warranty

James Stirling wrote:

Horshack wrote:

Marty4650 wrote:

BabySinclair wrote:

Horshack wrote:

Couldn't find that listing but it's not even the cheapest gray-market listing available on eBay. There's one for $1951 as well. The catch for both is there is no warranty service from Nikon or worse, Nikon USA will not work on the camera or lens even if you paid them to do so.

Yes, thats because I bought it. But im now a bit anxious about it. It said in the description it has Nikon Warranty so first thing I'll do is register it check the serial. Is there anything else I should look for to check if it's gray market?

Nikon doesn't sell cameras without warranties.

You do have a Nikon warranty, but it is only for the market that camera was intended for. In other words, you might have to send it back to Japan to have warranty work done on it free of charge during the warranty period.

Most likely these come from Europe or Asia rather than Japan (typically wherever the currency arbitrage was greatest to allow the import to be obtained at best price), and you'd still need a dated receipt from the dealer in the origin country to establish the warranty coverage, which wont be available since the Nikon dealers unloading these into back-channels don't provide receipts to the wholesalers buying them.

There is absolutely nothing shady about this. The importer does the warranty work, and because of this they must charge you more than those grey market prices on ebay. And naturally, the importer has no obligation to repair cameras it didn't import.

See above.

I am not sure about the mechanism involved but Panamoz a grey market retailer selling here in the UK . Apart from offering a true 3yr UK based warranty { all repair work done by a long standing Glasgow firm } for all gear. Allows you to specifically use Nikon UK for any repairs or servicing , they are not the cheapest grey market company but they do offer very good warranties and have an excellent review record. I have used them a couple of times

https://panamoz.com/nikon-z7-mirrorless-camera-body-2470-f4-ftz-kit.html

Thanks for the information. I was speaking to the USA, where it's decidedly more difficult to get gray market gear serviced.

James Stirling
James Stirling Senior Member • Posts: 5,018
Re: Of course... it has a Nikon Warranty

Horshack wrote:

James Stirling wrote:

Horshack wrote:

Marty4650 wrote:

BabySinclair wrote:

Horshack wrote:

Couldn't find that listing but it's not even the cheapest gray-market listing available on eBay. There's one for $1951 as well. The catch for both is there is no warranty service from Nikon or worse, Nikon USA will not work on the camera or lens even if you paid them to do so.

Yes, thats because I bought it. But im now a bit anxious about it. It said in the description it has Nikon Warranty so first thing I'll do is register it check the serial. Is there anything else I should look for to check if it's gray market?

Nikon doesn't sell cameras without warranties.

You do have a Nikon warranty, but it is only for the market that camera was intended for. In other words, you might have to send it back to Japan to have warranty work done on it free of charge during the warranty period.

Most likely these come from Europe or Asia rather than Japan (typically wherever the currency arbitrage was greatest to allow the import to be obtained at best price), and you'd still need a dated receipt from the dealer in the origin country to establish the warranty coverage, which wont be available since the Nikon dealers unloading these into back-channels don't provide receipts to the wholesalers buying them.

There is absolutely nothing shady about this. The importer does the warranty work, and because of this they must charge you more than those grey market prices on ebay. And naturally, the importer has no obligation to repair cameras it didn't import.

See above.

I am not sure about the mechanism involved but Panamoz a grey market retailer selling here in the UK . Apart from offering a true 3yr UK based warranty { all repair work done by a long standing Glasgow firm } for all gear. Allows you to specifically use Nikon UK for any repairs or servicing , they are not the cheapest grey market company but they do offer very good warranties and have an excellent review record. I have used them a couple of times

https://panamoz.com/nikon-z7-mirrorless-camera-body-2470-f4-ftz-kit.html

Thanks for the information. I was speaking to the USA, where it's decidedly more difficult to get gray market gear serviced.

I was just giving another locations take on it I think other grey importers here have the same send it back type warranties , not sure the difference with Panamoz . There are independent repair firms here that can access any legit parts so even out with warranty period you can always get your gear fixed, is that not the case in the USA does Nikon restrict its parts distribution

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gremlin17 Forum Member • Posts: 70
Re: Be careful.

eques wrote:

I just lost a lot of money, because a criminal had hacked an ebay account. (The offer was good, about 10% under what I would expect, but not obviously too cheap.)

Better go to a reliable shop when $.$$$ are at stake. Then you actually get the camera and have no probelms returning it, if there are issues.

Peter

Sorry to hear this Peter, did you receive anything?

sirhawkeye64 Senior Member • Posts: 2,715
Re: Z6 kit eBay listing $2,049 plus taxes.. too good to be true?

BabySinclair wrote:

Me personally, I would avoid it (and eBay for camera/lens purchases but that's me).  Yes it sounds a little too good to be true, or it's a grey market bundle.

I think you're probably better off buying from a reputable supplier.  This may also not in fact be a new camera, or it could have been a display model or demo.  I would pass if it was me.

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peripheralfocus Veteran Member • Posts: 4,417
well, it's complex
1

Marty4650 wrote:

Nikon doesn't sell cameras without warranties.

It's actually more complex than that. The warranty is established at the distribution level, not at the factory level. A product that slips outside of the authorized distribution chain does not, in fact, have a valid warranty from any Nikon entity.

The best way to understand this is to know that even in Japan there is a sales distribution subsidiary. So the Nikon manufacturing organization (lets call it the factory) "sells" the camera to the Nikon Japanese sales subsidiary, who then resells it to Japanese camera stores. It is the sales subsidiary that operates repair centers, and establishes the warranty (meaning has legal responsibility for it and sets aside the funding for it.) That's also the entity that plans and pays for marketing and advertising in Japan (not done by, or funded by, the "factory").

Obviously, the same is true for overseas markets; Nikon USA "buys" the camera from the Nikon factory and resells it to U.S. camera stores. Nikon USA is the legal entity that establishes the Nikon warranty (and plans and pays for U.S. advertising etc.)

Most multinational companies work this way. There are sound financial management, regulatory, and legal reasons for it.

Now, of course, if you actually send a defective new Nikon camera to Japan, it's very likely that they will repair it for you as a courtesy. They'll turn it over to their sales subsidiary in Japan, who operates their Japanese repair facilities, and ask them to absorb the loss.

Some Nikon products come with a so-called "International warranty", but that's just an agreement between the various regional distributors to do courtesy repairs for each other. This is how, under an "international warranty", you can get your U.S. binocular repaired by Nikon Europe under warranty, if you're traveling in Paris. The Nikon manufacturing organization has nothing to do with it.

Again, this is the norm with multinational companies. This is why gray market distribution is of such concern to so many of them (in almost every industry under the sun). It skips one step in the process by which they collect funds for their business activities.

peripheralfocus Veteran Member • Posts: 4,417
it's often, maybe mostly, not currency arbitrage
1

Horshack wrote:

Most likely these come from Europe or Asia rather than Japan (typically wherever the currency arbitrage was greatest to allow the import to be obtained at best price),

It doesn't really matter, but just FYI: a great deal of the wholesale international gray market is not enabled by currency arbitrage. It's very seldom the case that currency arbitrage can give a gray market importer much of a price advantage over the authorized importer. (There has to be a short-term asynchronous 3-currency shift to make it worthwhile, at the wholesale level.)

Most gray market product in the camera industry actually comes from authorized distributors, who are buying the product from the factory at prices far below retail. Some of them sell excess inventory to importers who will take it to other markets. This is a violation of their distribution agreement, but it's rarely punished. In many industries there are multiple layers of regional distributor and sub-distributor before the product reaches retail. All of those are stages where product can escape sideways at low wholesale prices.

By low wholesale I mean in the neighborhood of what the distributor pays. (Nikon USA, for example, pays Nikon Japan somewhere around $1,100-1,200 for a Z6 when it imports one. So there's a lot of room there for them to undercut retail prices in, say, Europe if they were inclined to ship it sideways to some enterprising importer in Prague or Milan.)

Also not important, but just FYI: in 30+ years in and around the camera industry, I've never seen any significant amounts of gray market product that originated in Europe. Historically, most of it has come from Asia; Hong Kong in the old days, and, I'm 99% certain, China now. I've also known of it coming from Latin America (primarily because I was involved in importing it from there).

Horshack Veteran Member • Posts: 7,922
Re: it's often, maybe mostly, not currency arbitrage

peripheralfocus wrote:

Horshack wrote:

Most likely these come from Europe or Asia rather than Japan (typically wherever the currency arbitrage was greatest to allow the import to be obtained at best price),

It doesn't really matter, but just FYI: a great deal of the wholesale international gray market is not enabled by currency arbitrage. It's very seldom the case that currency arbitrage can give a gray market importer much of a price advantage over the authorized importer. (There has to be a short-term asynchronous 3-currency shift to make it worthwhile, at the wholesale level.)

Most gray market product in the camera industry actually comes from authorized distributors, who are buying the product from the factory at prices far below retail. Some of them sell excess inventory to importers who will take it to other markets. This is a violation of their distribution agreement, but it's rarely punished. In many industries there are multiple layers of regional distributor and sub-distributor before the product reaches retail. All of those are stages where product can escape sideways at low wholesale prices.

By low wholesale I mean in the neighborhood of what the distributor pays. (Nikon USA, for example, pays Nikon Japan somewhere around $1,100-1,200 for a Z6 when it imports one. So there's a lot of room there for them to undercut retail prices in, say, Europe if they were inclined to ship it sideways to some enterprising importer in Prague or Milan.)

Also not important, but just FYI: in 30+ years in and around the camera industry, I've never seen any significant amounts of gray market product that originated in Europe. Historically, most of it has come from Asia; Hong Kong in the old days, and, I'm 99% certain, China now. I've also known of it coming from Latin America (primarily because I was involved in importing it from there).

It matters to me and you're absolutely right - the price differences likely owe much more to the distribution model/costs than they do to currency arbitrage. Thanks for the informative post.

mrbr Veteran Member • Posts: 3,271
Re: Z6 kit eBay listing $2,049 plus taxes.. too good to be true?

Hi,

I would only buy from a trusted vendor.

E.g. :

See https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1454250-REG/nikon_z_6_mirrorless_digital.html

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Greetings,
Marc

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