AI is just around the corner.

Started 5 months ago | Discussions
tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 44,174
Re: Which computation do you want?
1

PhotoFactor wrote:

Ah the old skill argument. That's a typical response. I didn't say I couldn't play with settings to get a better result. I was using auto exposure with combinations of DRO and HDR in-camera, jpeg processing. Using all combinations of those settings, the phone did better. That's not to say that if I started deliberately underexposing I couldn't get the blowout reduced. But the DRO and HDR in-camera couldn't do that in any automatic modes. We're talking about auto processing sophistication here. OF COURSE you can do better with an ILC if you tweak, fiddle, adjust, tests, RAW, and PP. That takes a lot of time. For a quick auto shot, the phone is superior.

All that is unnecessary. I use P mode which is an auto mode that allows all possible adjustments. All I do is leave auto DRO on and adjust EV to a negative value that prevents blown highlights while looking through the viewfinder. I can do it faster than you can take a photo with a smartphone. I never find HDR necessary. That's what I mean by skill. The ability to get the most out of a camera with a minimum of effort.

"In skilled hands" means tweak, fiddle, adjust exposure, adjust metering, adjust DRO, adjust HDR, adjust contrast, saturation". That's a lot of work. With default settings, the phone does better. The ILC takes a lot of time and needs PP to be better in challenging lighting situations.

Not necessarily. Skill can also mean the ability to get the results with a minimum of effort. I never find it necessary to go through all the steps you do.

Smartphones need superior processing just to come close to a larger sensor camera and even then there are limitations in the conditions it can be used. The larger sensor cameras just don't need it. Taking multiple images and then processing them slows the smartphone camera down. In the time a smartphone takes one image I can take many with even my slowest camera.

Correct. I can take burst photos but then the processing defaults to non- HDR+ mode.

However HDR+ happens in under one second so not really slowing anything down for single shots.

I can take 2 single shots in 1 second. I have used old P&S cameras that needed a full second between shots and it did slow me down. When I shoot sports I want to instantly be able to zoom, recompose and shoot. I shoot at 10 frames per second. Sorry but for me smartphones don't cut it for the vast majority, probably 90%, of my photography. In addition I'm a proud pixel peeper of high resolution images and phones fail. I think they should stick with 4mp with those small sensors and cheap lenses because any more than that is wasted.

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Tom

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 44,174
Re: Which computation do you want?
1

PhotoFactor wrote:

Let's be happy to disagree. I've posted those photos before and I'm not going to waste my time doing it again. You can believe what you want and I (and many others who actually know) can believe what we want. Have a great day.

As long as you don't admit you lack some skills and instead fall back on the automatic features a smartphone provides you will never get better.

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Tom

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TeddyD Contributing Member • Posts: 860
Re: AI is just around the corner.

I can wait, just about indefinitely

If I can't take the picture myself it's not worth it.

A serious question thou, should the watermark include AI? ;P

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Papa48 Senior Member • Posts: 1,507
Re: So all cameras become a simple point and shoot

Steve Bingham wrote:

At the age of 17 I won my first photo contest using an enlarger set up in my mother's washroom - and projected onto the back door as a paper holder for proper enlargement. Yikes! I am 83 now. Time marches on. And yes, I developed almost every roll of film I ever shot - the first roll in my mother's sink in 1947. Times change!

1947 was a year before I was born! 

PhotoFactor Veteran Member • Posts: 3,222
Re: Which computation do you want?

tbcass wrote:

PhotoFactor wrote:

Ah the old skill argument. That's a typical response. I didn't say I couldn't play with settings to get a better result. I was using auto exposure with combinations of DRO and HDR in-camera, jpeg processing. Using all combinations of those settings, the phone did better. That's not to say that if I started deliberately underexposing I couldn't get the blowout reduced. But the DRO and HDR in-camera couldn't do that in any automatic modes. We're talking about auto processing sophistication here. OF COURSE you can do better with an ILC if you tweak, fiddle, adjust, tests, RAW, and PP. That takes a lot of time. For a quick auto shot, the phone is superior.

All that is unnecessary. I use P mode which is an auto mode that allows all possible adjustments. All I do is leave auto DRO on and adjust EV to a negative value that prevents blown highlights while looking through the viewfinder. I can do it faster than you can take a photo with a smartphone. I never find HDR necessary. That's what I mean by skill. The ability to get the most out of a camera with a minimum of effort.

"In skilled hands" means tweak, fiddle, adjust exposure, adjust metering, adjust DRO, adjust HDR, adjust contrast, saturation". That's a lot of work. With default settings, the phone does better. The ILC takes a lot of time and needs PP to be better in challenging lighting situations.

Not necessarily. Skill can also mean the ability to get the results with a minimum of effort. I never find it necessary to go through all the steps you do.

Smartphones need superior processing just to come close to a larger sensor camera and even then there are limitations in the conditions it can be used. The larger sensor cameras just don't need it. Taking multiple images and then processing them slows the smartphone camera down. In the time a smartphone takes one image I can take many with even my slowest camera.

Correct. I can take burst photos but then the processing defaults to non- HDR+ mode.

However HDR+ happens in under one second so not really slowing anything down for single shots.

I can take 2 single shots in 1 second. I have used old P&S cameras that needed a full second between shots and it did slow me down. When I shoot sports I want to instantly be able to zoom, recompose and shoot. I shoot at 10 frames per second. Sorry but for me smartphones don't cut it for the vast majority, probably 90%, of my photography. In addition I'm a proud pixel peeper of high resolution images and phones fail. I think they should stick with 4mp with those small sensors and cheap lenses because any more than that is wasted.

I have shots where "P" mode in my ILC could not do what the phone could do in having a correct exposure with good shadows yet blowout protected.

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PhotoFactor Veteran Member • Posts: 3,222
Re: Which computation do you want?

tbcass wrote:

PhotoFactor wrote:

Let's be happy to disagree. I've posted those photos before and I'm not going to waste my time doing it again. You can believe what you want and I (and many others who actually know) can believe what we want. Have a great day.

As long as you don't admit you lack some skills and instead fall back on the automatic features a smartphone provides you will never get better.

So funny that it's always about the skill of the user. It's never a possibility that the phones are actually better in some of these ways.

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stevo23 Forum Pro • Posts: 22,852
Re: Which computation do you want?
2

PhotoFactor wrote:

tbcass wrote:

PhotoFactor wrote:

Let's be happy to disagree. I've posted those photos before and I'm not going to waste my time doing it again. You can believe what you want and I (and many others who actually know) can believe what we want. Have a great day.

As long as you don't admit you lack some skills and instead fall back on the automatic features a smartphone provides you will never get better.

So funny that it's always about the skill of the user. It's never a possibility that the phones are actually better in some of these ways.

I'm happy to admit as much. But so far, no one has been able to demonstrate it.

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stevo23 Forum Pro • Posts: 22,852
Re: Which computation do you want?

PhotoFactor wrote:

tbcass wrote:

PhotoFactor wrote:

Ah the old skill argument. That's a typical response. I didn't say I couldn't play with settings to get a better result. I was using auto exposure with combinations of DRO and HDR in-camera, jpeg processing. Using all combinations of those settings, the phone did better. That's not to say that if I started deliberately underexposing I couldn't get the blowout reduced. But the DRO and HDR in-camera couldn't do that in any automatic modes. We're talking about auto processing sophistication here. OF COURSE you can do better with an ILC if you tweak, fiddle, adjust, tests, RAW, and PP. That takes a lot of time. For a quick auto shot, the phone is superior.

All that is unnecessary. I use P mode which is an auto mode that allows all possible adjustments. All I do is leave auto DRO on and adjust EV to a negative value that prevents blown highlights while looking through the viewfinder. I can do it faster than you can take a photo with a smartphone. I never find HDR necessary. That's what I mean by skill. The ability to get the most out of a camera with a minimum of effort.

"In skilled hands" means tweak, fiddle, adjust exposure, adjust metering, adjust DRO, adjust HDR, adjust contrast, saturation". That's a lot of work. With default settings, the phone does better. The ILC takes a lot of time and needs PP to be better in challenging lighting situations.

Not necessarily. Skill can also mean the ability to get the results with a minimum of effort. I never find it necessary to go through all the steps you do.

Smartphones need superior processing just to come close to a larger sensor camera and even then there are limitations in the conditions it can be used. The larger sensor cameras just don't need it. Taking multiple images and then processing them slows the smartphone camera down. In the time a smartphone takes one image I can take many with even my slowest camera.

Correct. I can take burst photos but then the processing defaults to non- HDR+ mode.

However HDR+ happens in under one second so not really slowing anything down for single shots.

I can take 2 single shots in 1 second. I have used old P&S cameras that needed a full second between shots and it did slow me down. When I shoot sports I want to instantly be able to zoom, recompose and shoot. I shoot at 10 frames per second. Sorry but for me smartphones don't cut it for the vast majority, probably 90%, of my photography. In addition I'm a proud pixel peeper of high resolution images and phones fail. I think they should stick with 4mp with those small sensors and cheap lenses because any more than that is wasted.

I have shots where "P" mode in my ILC could not do what the phone could do in having a correct exposure with good shadows yet blowout protected.

It's never the camera's fault.

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PhotoFactor Veteran Member • Posts: 3,222
Re: Which computation do you want?
2

stevo23 wrote:

PhotoFactor wrote:

tbcass wrote:

PhotoFactor wrote:

Let's be happy to disagree. I've posted those photos before and I'm not going to waste my time doing it again. You can believe what you want and I (and many others who actually know) can believe what we want. Have a great day.

As long as you don't admit you lack some skills and instead fall back on the automatic features a smartphone provides you will never get better.

So funny that it's always about the skill of the user. It's never a possibility that the phones are actually better in some of these ways.

I'm happy to admit as much. But so far, no one has been able to demonstrate it.

OK, here is "P" mode on the A6000, and a shot at the same time on the Pixel 2 XL. Tell me what non-fiddly skills I need to improve the A6000 picture. After all, tbcass said that the skill was using P mode and the result would be superior to the phone.

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Crash N Burn
Crash N Burn Regular Member • Posts: 119
Re: AI is just around the corner.
1

stevo23 wrote:

Crash N Burn wrote:

I'm looking forward to this development. Just yesterday, there was a beautiful, partly cloudy sky--you know, the kind with puffy white clouds through with a deep blue sky peeked.

My smartphone did a much better job nailing the exposure than my DSLR. Now, even though I bracketed the exposures, aligned them, then gave them the royal treatment in Aurora HDR, the result was still inferior. I got the greens wrong (at first they looked radioactive, then when I reduced their saturation and luminosity, they looked off somehow).

I guess these programs give users "enough rope to hang themselves with."

Smartphones neatly sidestep this. Hopefully, AI in cameras will help future users do so as well.

Is this tongue in cheek? Which smartphone are you talking about?

This isn't really news to anyone in the know about just how good smartphones have become. Thankfully, Photofactor has already schooled you on this. But if you need more convincing, here's a thread someone created that is tailormade for non-believers: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62813671

Here's my hobbling-along Nikon DSLR. I needed to take a bracket just to get the exposure right. Pushing and pulling in post required. Sad!

By contrast, here's my phone (XS MAX). Bam! Nailed it!

In fact, not only did it nail the exposure, it nailed a pano, seamlessly stitching it without any parallax errors. All handheld.

Crash N Burn
Crash N Burn Regular Member • Posts: 119
Re: AI is just around the corner.
2

The Davinator wrote:

Crash N Burn wrote:

I'm looking forward to this development. Just yesterday, there was a beautiful, partly cloudy sky--you know, the kind with puffy white clouds through with a deep blue sky peeked.

My smartphone did a much better job nailing the exposure than my DSLR. Now, even though I bracketed the exposures, aligned them, then gave them the royal treatment in Aurora HDR, the result was still inferior. I got the greens wrong (at first they looked radioactive, then when I reduced their saturation and luminosity, they looked off somehow).

I guess these programs give users "enough rope to hang themselves with."

Smartphones neatly sidestep this. Hopefully, AI in cameras will help future users do so as well.

Post the shots for us to see.

You're still not "seeing?"

Not even after this great thread: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62813671 ????

If so, I don't think shots will help. They aren't miracle workers capable of giving sight to the blind.

Jonsi
Jonsi Veteran Member • Posts: 4,609
Re: AI is just around the corner.
3

Crash N Burn wrote:

here's a thread someone created

"someone" *wink*

Here's my hobbling-along Nikon DSLR. I needed to take a bracket just to get the exposure right. Pushing and pulling in post required.

So much work and you still can't get a decent photo from your own camera ?

Sad!

Quite.

Definitely stick to phones, they do everything for you.

Except create usernames.

TeddyD Contributing Member • Posts: 860
Re: Which computation do you want?

PhotoFactor wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

PhotoFactor wrote:

tbcass wrote:

PhotoFactor wrote:

Let's be happy to disagree. I've posted those photos before and I'm not going to waste my time doing it again. You can believe what you want and I (and many others who actually know) can believe what we want. Have a great day.

As long as you don't admit you lack some skills and instead fall back on the automatic features a smartphone provides you will never get better.

So funny that it's always about the skill of the user. It's never a possibility that the phones are actually better in some of these ways.

I'm happy to admit as much. But so far, no one has been able to demonstrate it.

OK, here is "P" mode on the A6000, and a shot at the same time on the Pixel 2 XL. Tell me what non-fiddly skills I need to improve the A6000 picture.

Read the manual?

After all, tbcass said that the skill was using P mode and the result would be superior to the phone.

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stevo23 Forum Pro • Posts: 22,852
Re: Which computation do you want?
1

PhotoFactor wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

PhotoFactor wrote:

tbcass wrote:

PhotoFactor wrote:

Let's be happy to disagree. I've posted those photos before and I'm not going to waste my time doing it again. You can believe what you want and I (and many others who actually know) can believe what we want. Have a great day.

As long as you don't admit you lack some skills and instead fall back on the automatic features a smartphone provides you will never get better.

So funny that it's always about the skill of the user. It's never a possibility that the phones are actually better in some of these ways.

I'm happy to admit as much. But so far, no one has been able to demonstrate it.

OK, here is "P" mode on the A6000, and a shot at the same time on the Pixel 2 XL. Tell me what non-fiddly skills I need to improve the A6000 picture. After all, tbcass said that the skill was using P mode and the result would be superior to the phone.

Okay, just a quick look. Wish that was my backyard.

The Google is pretty terrible from an image quality standpoint - pasty and a few strange artifacts and literally discards some of the detail. So I'll take the A6000 any day. As for exposure, the shadow is very noisy with the Pixie even though it's doing it's own HDR.

And I think you can do a better job of exposure with the A6000. You've got no detail in the distant hills - so you've overexposed it. Are you not using your zebras? That's fundamental I think. Did you not try HDR with the A6000? You have that capability, yes?

So what you have here is a phone/camera that creates a pasty/grainy poor quality HDR processed image vs. a much higher quality image from a dedicated ILC.

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fferreres Veteran Member • Posts: 3,063
Re: AI is just around the corner.
1

AI is a very broad terms with different meanings. I agree “imaging” will be radically different in many ways than today due to the possibilities of new algorithms sometimes labeled with the AI group, but that are conceptually very different.

What is changing is not so much photography, but that computers can now SEE (I a way similar to how we see) and that computer algorithms can now understand, transform, blend or even synthesize objects based on everything we can already do.

The ability to SEE (as opposed to just record) with the ability to IMAGINE, and the ability to blend and move from one to the other, is like creating a “NEW MIND” and NEW EXPERIENCE as we can record trillions of past images, ideales or real, as inputs for imagined imagined outcomes. The realm of what “happened” (visually) will play a small part into photography as “imagined” in a very very broad sense.

Photography as light sampling will not change much, but for 99% of purposes it will be an input not an output.

The Davinator
The Davinator Forum Pro • Posts: 22,770
Re: AI is just around the corner.
3

Crash N Burn wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

Crash N Burn wrote:

I'm looking forward to this development. Just yesterday, there was a beautiful, partly cloudy sky--you know, the kind with puffy white clouds through with a deep blue sky peeked.

My smartphone did a much better job nailing the exposure than my DSLR. Now, even though I bracketed the exposures, aligned them, then gave them the royal treatment in Aurora HDR, the result was still inferior. I got the greens wrong (at first they looked radioactive, then when I reduced their saturation and luminosity, they looked off somehow).

I guess these programs give users "enough rope to hang themselves with."

Smartphones neatly sidestep this. Hopefully, AI in cameras will help future users do so as well.

Is this tongue in cheek? Which smartphone are you talking about?

This isn't really news to anyone in the know about just how good smartphones have become. Thankfully, Photofactor has already schooled you on this. But if you need more convincing, here's a thread someone created that is tailormade for non-believers: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62813671

Here's my hobbling-along Nikon DSLR. I needed to take a bracket just to get the exposure right. Pushing and pulling in post required. Sad!

By contrast, here's my phone (XS MAX). Bam! Nailed it!

In fact, not only did it nail the exposure, it nailed a pano, seamlessly stitching it without any parallax errors. All handheld.

Lets see the full rez phone image....instead of the postage stamp.

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(unknown member) Forum Member • Posts: 78
Re: Which computation do you want?
3

PhotoFactor wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

The difference is automatic processing of great superiority on the phone.

I don't think so. In all of the examples of how brilliant smartphones are, I'm still not seeing anything better than an ILC in skilled hands.

Yes, the point is the skilled hands part. You can get superior DR and color if you PP your ILC photos. The phone does it with no PP needed. In many cases.

So are mine, I have produced actual photos many times in these forums. I'm a scientist by trade, show the evidence. It is what it is whether people like it or not.

That's a good point - show us the superior results. Take the same image with your best ILC and your smartphone. Single image, non challenging light.

In non-challenging light the ILC will be similar or better in many cases, it is a wash. However in challenging light, especially high contrast/DR situations, the phone does better unless you PP the ILC photos from RAW.

Perhaps you have the wrong phone.

It's an iPhone 8. Bad phone?

No that's a good phone, but it's performance has been surpassed, especially by the Google Pixels and apparently by some of the Huawei's as well.

I've followed this thread with great interest. It's amazing how so many people know so little about what smartphone computational photography truly entails. It's like branches in a tree--growing and spreading like a fractal in all directions.

Phones are just so capable these days.

They destroy my OOC camera shots.

(unknown member) Forum Member • Posts: 78
Re: Not Artificial Intelligence.
1

tbcass wrote:

Dedicated cameras are already capable of this. They just call it something else. Nothing that smartphones do is true AI so calling it that is false.

That is false. If you look at Google Scholar, there are many results for smartphone AI.

Let me tell you a little story: I've thrown a lot of money at my photography over the years. Did any of that gear improve my shots? I lied to myself for the longest possible time, but now I realize the answer is a resounding "no!"

The Davinator
The Davinator Forum Pro • Posts: 22,770
Re: Which computation do you want?
1

stevo23 wrote:

PhotoFactor wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

PhotoFactor wrote:

tbcass wrote:

PhotoFactor wrote:

Let's be happy to disagree. I've posted those photos before and I'm not going to waste my time doing it again. You can believe what you want and I (and many others who actually know) can believe what we want. Have a great day.

As long as you don't admit you lack some skills and instead fall back on the automatic features a smartphone provides you will never get better.

So funny that it's always about the skill of the user. It's never a possibility that the phones are actually better in some of these ways.

I'm happy to admit as much. But so far, no one has been able to demonstrate it.

OK, here is "P" mode on the A6000, and a shot at the same time on the Pixel 2 XL. Tell me what non-fiddly skills I need to improve the A6000 picture. After all, tbcass said that the skill was using P mode and the result would be superior to the phone.

Okay, just a quick look. Wish that was my backyard.

The Google is pretty terrible from an image quality standpoint - pasty and a few strange artifacts and literally discards some of the detail. So I'll take the A6000 any day. As for exposure, the shadow is very noisy with the Pixie even though it's doing it's own HDR.

And I think you can do a better job of exposure with the A6000. You've got no detail in the distant hills - so you've overexposed it. Are you not using your zebras? That's fundamental I think. Did you not try HDR with the A6000? You have that capability, yes?

So what you have here is a phone/camera that creates a pasty/grainy poor quality HDR processed image vs. a much higher quality image from a dedicated ILC.

Literally 30 seconds in Lightroom from the a6000 compressed jpg.  Imagine if he had used HDR with the a6000.  But even from the jpg, the a6000 is better in single shot than the phone is with HDR. If I had the raw file from the a6000, it would destroy the phone further. I didnt bother with color settings as the difference is more than enpugh in favour of the a6000

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Dennis Forum Pro • Posts: 19,242
Re: Which computation do you want?
1

Nutty Lutty wrote:

It's amazing how so many people know so little about what smartphone computational photography truly entails. It's like branches in a tree--growing and spreading like a fractal in all directions.

So enlighten us. Something more specific than branches & trees

- Dennis
--
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