Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

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Aberaeron Veteran Member • Posts: 7,379
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

Doug J wrote:

Evildogofdoom wrote:

I tbcass wrote:

Evildogofdoom wrote:

tbcass wrote:

Jonsi wrote:

holashobby wrote:

Out of curiosity, how did Sony build such a dominant position in the US market?

While they weren't the first mirrorless cameras they were the first to focus solely on ML

Not true because Sony has been producing SLT cameras with mirrors at the same time as mirrorless. It is true that the focus has been on mirrorless with SLT getting trickle down technology.

Some could argue that the SLT cameras ARE mirrorless.

Only because they use an EVF but in most ways they have more in common with a DSLR than a mirrorless.

Let’s see:

EVF, check

Live view only, check

no flapping mirror, check,

very fast shooting speeds (no flapping mirror), check..

There’s a lot more mirrorless, then DSLR in the SLT cameras. The separate PDAF module is the only thing they have in common with DSLRs.

In summary, they have a mirror and therefore are not mirrorless. They are also not reflex. They don't need to be force fit into either category, what's wrong with using their industry-provided designation, SLT?

Cheers,
Doug

Wrong. They are DSLR’s despite their Sony marketing designation of DSLT. They are indeed reflex cameras. Reflex means that they reflect light using mirrors and they have that. Fixed or swinging, it matters not, they are indeed single lens reflex cameras. Take the mirror away and you have a mirrorless IL camera, but the translucent part is even common to swinging mirror types.

In summary the designation of SLT is not industry-provided, but a term invented by Sony to differentiate them from cameras with swinging mirrors.

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MILC man Senior Member • Posts: 3,368
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

Aberaeron wrote:

Doug J wrote:

In summary, they have a mirror and therefore are not mirrorless. They are also not reflex. They don't need to be force fit into either category, what's wrong with using their industry-provided designation, SLT?

Cheers,
Doug

Wrong. They are DSLR’s despite their Sony marketing designation of DSLT. They are indeed reflex cameras. Reflex means that they reflect light using mirrors and they have that. Fixed or swinging, it matters not, they are indeed single lens reflex cameras. Take the mirror away and you have a mirrorless IL camera, but the translucent part is even common to swinging mirror types.

In summary the designation of SLT is not industry-provided, but a term invented by Sony to differentiate them from cameras with swinging mirrors.

slt is an evolution of the pellicle mirror:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellicle_mirror

T3 Forum Pro • Posts: 21,430
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

George1958 wrote:

T3 - haven’t you said all this before, the history bit and things change? Your history is anecdotal and partial , you things change is assuming a direction of travel which paradoxically is a repetition not a change.

if you want change, consider the fusion between cameras, smart phones and computational photography? This is all ready happening and that is why demand is falling and is a shared problem for the industry as a whole. Smart phones are killing the industry. They are easy to use, give instant and distributable results and are part of a life style for today’s generation, and the generations to follow. Sony is like the rest having to discount and give cash backs. That will stop working at some point and the what? A small niche market for those who care about photography more than tech and can pay. Great for the likes of Leica, but not tech consumer cameras.

And when all ILCs die as a result of smartphone cameras, as you claim they will, unfortunately the only company that benefits from that is Sony because they supply the image sensors to most of the world's smartphones. But ILC's are far from dead. Sony's camera sales actually grew 14.5%. Fujifilm's sales grew too. Certain companies are adapting to a changing market better than others.

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George1958 Contributing Member • Posts: 690
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

T3- growth is no surprise given the near fire sale prices of old inventory and the discounts and promotions for more recent stock. Growth in a shrinking market has no where to go except down, and it will.

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(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 1,972
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

George1958 wrote:

T3- growth is no surprise given the near fire sale prices of old inventory and the discounts and promotions for more recent stock. Growth in a shrinking market has no where to go except down, and it will.

Sadly this is so.

CIPA production figures for all ILC cameras Jan- Apr 2019 show a 30.9% drop compared with the same period last year.

Any individual company would have to perform spectacularly well on their own to reverse an industry decline such as this.

MILC man Senior Member • Posts: 3,368
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

robblackett wrote:

George1958 wrote:

T3- growth is no surprise given the near fire sale prices of old inventory and the discounts and promotions for more recent stock. Growth in a shrinking market has no where to go except down, and it will.

Sadly this is so.

not necessarily for sony, or Fuji apparently.

CIPA production figures for all ILC cameras Jan- Apr 2019 show a 30.9% drop compared with the same period last year.

Any individual company would have to perform spectacularly well on their own to reverse an industry decline such as this.

read the thread title, this is about market position, not industry decline.

sony had a 2% increase in profit for fy2019, vs. dismal yearly reports for canikon.

it's not the same for all companies.

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 1,972
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

MILC man wrote:

robblackett wrote:

George1958 wrote:

T3- growth is no surprise given the near fire sale prices of old inventory and the discounts and promotions for more recent stock. Growth in a shrinking market has no where to go except down, and it will.

Sadly this is so.

CIPA production figures for all ILC cameras Jan- Apr 2019 show a 30.9% drop compared with the same period last year.

Any individual company would have to perform spectacularly well on their own to reverse an industry decline such as this.

read the thread title, this is about market position, not industry decline.

sony had a 2% increase in profit for fy2019, vs. dismal yearly reports for canikon.

it's not the same for all companies.

However if the camera market is buggered (although I would imagine most of us hope it isn't) then a 2% increase in profit fy2019 for your beloved really isn't going to make all that much difference.

George1958 Contributing Member • Posts: 690
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

A falling demand is a problem , getting a better percentage of a smaller market is hardly great. It’s not as if some how and single handedly Sony has persuaded people to start giving up their smartphones and buy their cameras.

For all I know the lions share of new Sony sales could be largely current Sony Owners, let’s face it, the A7 mk iii is a country mile better than the mkii?

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PhotoFactor Veteran Member • Posts: 3,019
Re: ↑ rise of YouTub Video + Sony A7 superior Low-light, Eye AF tracking

In two of your areas (burst speed and af), mirrorless are leading the way.

Burst speed - see the Sony A9 at 20fps.

AF tracking - eye and even animal AF, not available on DSLRs.

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MILC man Senior Member • Posts: 3,368
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

robblackett wrote:

MILC man wrote:

robblackett wrote:

George1958 wrote:

T3- growth is no surprise given the near fire sale prices of old inventory and the discounts and promotions for more recent stock. Growth in a shrinking market has no where to go except down, and it will.

Sadly this is so.

CIPA production figures for all ILC cameras Jan- Apr 2019 show a 30.9% drop compared with the same period last year.

Any individual company would have to perform spectacularly well on their own to reverse an industry decline such as this.

read the thread title, this is about market position, not industry decline.

sony had a 2% increase in profit for fy2019, vs. dismal yearly reports for canikon.

it's not the same for all companies.

However if the camera market is buggered (although I would imagine most of us hope it isn't) then a 2% increase in profit fy2019 for your beloved really isn't going to make all that much difference.

riiight, shareholders and brand owners don't care about profit, and the future of a company.

what's next, the moon is made out of green cheese.

Doug J Forum Pro • Posts: 10,280
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

Aberaeron wrote:

Doug J wrote:

Evildogofdoom wrote:

I tbcass wrote:

Evildogofdoom wrote:

tbcass wrote:

Jonsi wrote:

holashobby wrote:

Out of curiosity, how did Sony build such a dominant position in the US market?

While they weren't the first mirrorless cameras they were the first to focus solely on ML

Not true because Sony has been producing SLT cameras with mirrors at the same time as mirrorless. It is true that the focus has been on mirrorless with SLT getting trickle down technology.

Some could argue that the SLT cameras ARE mirrorless.

Only because they use an EVF but in most ways they have more in common with a DSLR than a mirrorless.

Let’s see:

EVF, check

Live view only, check

no flapping mirror, check,

very fast shooting speeds (no flapping mirror), check..

There’s a lot more mirrorless, then DSLR in the SLT cameras. The separate PDAF module is the only thing they have in common with DSLRs.

In summary, they have a mirror and therefore are not mirrorless. They are also not reflex. They don't need to be force fit into either category, what's wrong with using their industry-provided designation, SLT?

Cheers,
Doug

Wrong. They are DSLR’s despite their Sony marketing designation of DSLT. They are indeed reflex cameras. Reflex means that they reflect light using mirrors and they have that. Fixed or swinging, it matters not, they are indeed single lens reflex cameras. Take the mirror away and you have a mirrorless IL camera, but the translucent part is even common to swinging mirror types.

In summary the designation of SLT is not industry-provided, but a term invented by Sony to differentiate them from cameras with swinging mirrors.

Perhaps they should be called DSLP for the pellicle mirror 

Cheers,
Doug

George1958 Contributing Member • Posts: 690
Re: ↑ rise of YouTub Video + Sony A7 superior Low-light, Eye AF tracking

burst speed is spray and pray, no body can register all the information in a frame successively for 20FPS, and you might find your buffer chokes up quickly with raw too.

Second eye AF is just a gimmick , try using an appropriate DoF and you will get focus.

If thats progress...............................

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MILC man Senior Member • Posts: 3,368
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market
1

George1958 wrote:

A falling demand is a problem , getting a better percentage of a smaller market is hardly great.

a 2% increase in yearly profit, in a dismal overall market, is stellar performance.

It’s not as if some how and single handedly Sony has persuaded people to start giving up their smartphones and buy their cameras.

sony was perhaps the first company to really target high profit ff gear over low profit cheap gear, like aps-c dslrs, and the growth curves of all three companies reflect that perfectly.

canikon and Panasonic finally figured it out, as well, tho... do you think that the s1/s1r was nothing more than Panasonic rolling the dice, as opposed to actual market research.

For all I know the lions share of new Sony sales could be largely current Sony Owners, let’s face it, the A7 mk iii is a country mile better than the mkii?

that's just shows a lack of knowledge about sony.

try to understand why panasonic released the s1/s1r, in a market that you claim is getting overrun with smartphones.

MILC man Senior Member • Posts: 3,368
Re: ↑ rise of YouTub Video + Sony A7 superior Low-light, Eye AF tracking
2

George1958 wrote:

burst speed is spray and pray, no body can register all the information in a frame successively for 20FPS, and you might find your buffer chokes up quickly with raw too.

you've clearly never used the a9.

Second eye AF is just a gimmick , try using an appropriate DoF and you will get focus.

oh boy.

If thats progress...............................

why is nikon working hard on eyeaf for z-mount.

George1958 Contributing Member • Posts: 690
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

its not a claim, we have more than 70 million handsets in the Uk alone, check out facebook etc, most of the content is from smart phones.

cameras are not even in the psyche of most of the young adult population, they just use their smartphones.

I can walk down any high street or shopping mall and I can see several phone shops, and the occasional or most often no camera shops. I have noted that all of the Sony shops in my region have closed and they did not just sell cameras .

your 2% is just left over scraps and will get smaller.

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Fregoli
Fregoli Regular Member • Posts: 195
Re: ↑ rise of YouTub Video + Sony A7 superior Low-light, Eye AF tracking
4

George1958 wrote:

burst speed is spray and pray, no body can register all the information in a frame successively for 20FPS, and you might find your buffer chokes up quickly with raw too.

Courtesy of Ken Rockwell, here are the stats on the A9's buffer:

  • 362 frames JPEG Large.
  • 241 frames compressed raw.
  • 222 frames JPG + raw.
  • 128 frames uncompressed raw.
  • 118 frames JPG + uncompressed raw.

Second eye AF is just a gimmick , try using an appropriate DoF and you will get focus.

If thats progress...............................

Eye AF might be a gimmick on the Nikon Z. Yes, the DPR test showed it focused more on eyeleashes than the iris. but that's to be expected from a 1st gen product.

Sony eye-AF is by no means a gimmick, from everything I've read.

MILC man Senior Member • Posts: 3,368
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market
1

George1958 wrote:

its not a claim, we have more than 70 million handsets in the Uk alone, check out facebook etc, most of the content is from smart phones.

that doesn't explain why panasonic released an entirely new expensive ff milc lineup of bodies and lenses in 2019.

why did panasonic do that, if the ilc market is overrun with smartphones, as you keep claiming.

how did sony see a 2% fy2019 profit increase, if the ilc market is overrun with smartphones, as you keep claiming.

T3 Forum Pro • Posts: 21,430
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

George1958 wrote:

T3- growth is no surprise given the near fire sale prices of old inventory and the discounts and promotions for more recent stock. Growth in a shrinking market has no where to go except down, and it will.

Wrong. Sony actually sold fewer units but brought in more money:

"Canon [unit volume] is down 1.3 percent year-over-year, Sony 6.6 percent, Olympus 13.8 percent and Nikon even 15 percent.

The picture slightly shifts when looking at revenue, though. In money terms, Fujifilm's sales increased by only 0.6 percent. Sony, however, managed to expand sales by a whopping 14.5 percent, thanks to a focus on high-priced premium models in its camera lineup.

At the other end of the spectrum, things do look pretty dire for industry giants Canon, Nikon and Olympus whose sales value went down by 11.4, 28.5, and 21.3 percent respectively."

You don't sell fewer units but bring in more money by selling at "near fire sale prices of old inventory and the discounts and promotions for more recent stock." That's actually what Canon and Nikon have been doing, which is why their sales values have all dropped so much. Sony has been able to successfully capture higher-end users-- the true photo enthusiasts-- that are willing to spend more money. So while Canon saw their unit volume drop by only 1.3 percent, the reason why their sales value dropped so much is because they are selling units at "near fire sale prices".

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George1958 Contributing Member • Posts: 690
Re: ↑ rise of YouTub Video + Sony A7 superior Low-light, Eye AF tracking

yes, but what do you actually notice in each of those frames as you shoot them?

and

Eye AF is a gimmick because you don't need it if you know how to take a portrait.

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MILC man Senior Member • Posts: 3,368
Re: ↑ rise of YouTub Video + Sony A7 superior Low-light, Eye AF tracking

George1958 wrote:

yes, but what do you actually notice in each of those frames as you shoot them?

perfect focus.

I own the a9, you don't, so i know how it performs.

and

Eye AF is a gimmick because you don't need it if you know how to take a portrait.

yes, we should all be using film, with pinhole cameras, who needs digital photography

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