Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

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(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 1,972
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

tbcass wrote:

robblackett wrote:

Well, invariably it was the higher price with the discount that would sell best, the conclusion being that a) people love to think they are getting a bargain; and b) retailers like to be able to advertise a 'special price' (ideally with a limited time period) which provides consumers with an incentive to buy now, rather than just thinking about it.

In many cases that scam works, over price the product initially and then drop the price. Automobile manufacturers have been doing that for as long as I can remember. The time limit also works despite the fact the "sale" price is offered over and over again. In this case it doesn't seem to be working however because the non discounted Sony models continue to out sell the discounted models from Canon and Nikon. Maybe todays camera shoppers know what they want and are more sophisticated than when you sold them. I'll bet the people who bought the cameras before they were discounted feel cheated.

Well, it's generally accepted by the public that if you want a product the moment it is launched you will inevitably pay a higher price than if you wait for a while.  And that's largely true for all consumer goods - phones, cars, TVs, etc., not just cameras.

Aberaeron Veteran Member • Posts: 7,385
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

robblackett wrote:

tbcass wrote:

robblackett wrote:

Well, invariably it was the higher price with the discount that would sell best, the conclusion being that a) people love to think they are getting a bargain; and b) retailers like to be able to advertise a 'special price' (ideally with a limited time period) which provides consumers with an incentive to buy now, rather than just thinking about it.

In many cases that scam works, over price the product initially and then drop the price. Automobile manufacturers have been doing that for as long as I can remember. The time limit also works despite the fact the "sale" price is offered over and over again. In this case it doesn't seem to be working however because the non discounted Sony models continue to out sell the discounted models from Canon and Nikon. Maybe todays camera shoppers know what they want and are more sophisticated than when you sold them. I'll bet the people who bought the cameras before they were discounted feel cheated.

Well, it's generally accepted by the public that if you want a product the moment it is launched you will inevitably pay a higher price than if you wait for a while. And that's largely true for all consumer goods - phones, cars, TVs, etc., not just cameras.

Depending on demand and fiscal inflation wherever you are, of course. In general, yes, it tends to hold true, but not as a hard and fast rule.

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 43,211
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

robblackett wrote:

tbcass wrote:

I'll bet the people who bought the cameras before they were discounted feel cheated.

Well, it's generally accepted by the public that if you want a product the moment it is launched you will inevitably pay a higher price than if you wait for a while. And that's largely true for all consumer goods - phones, cars, TVs, etc., not just cameras.

Yes, I try to avoid being an early adopter. Being first doesn't win any prizes.

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desertsp Contributing Member • Posts: 828
Re: ↑ rise of YouTub Video + Sony A7 superior Low-light, Eye AF tracking

Depends on your definition of a “great strides.” Is achieving focus lock in 0.05 seconds instead of 0.06 really an improvement? How about the acceptable noise floor rising half a stop?

Also it might not be correct to assume that older people are less interested in the tech advancements than younger people. After all, what age bracket is the one complaining most that new cameras (read: smartphones) have lesser IQ than old ones (read: full size dedicated cameras)?

George1958 Contributing Member • Posts: 690
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market
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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 43,211
Re: ↑ rise of YouTub Video + Sony A7 superior Low-light, Eye AF tracking

desertsp wrote:

Depends on your definition of a “great strides.” Is achieving focus lock in 0.05 seconds instead of 0.06 really an improvement? How about the acceptable noise floor rising half a stop?

Neither of those is a great stride but if you shoot sports, wildlife or any other action, advanced AF tracking is a major advance.

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tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 43,211
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

Evildogofdoom wrote:

tbcass wrote:

Jonsi wrote:

holashobby wrote:

Out of curiosity, how did Sony build such a dominant position in the US market?

While they weren't the first mirrorless cameras they were the first to focus solely on ML

Not true because Sony has been producing SLT cameras with mirrors at the same time as mirrorless. It is true that the focus has been on mirrorless with SLT getting trickle down technology.

Some could argue that the SLT cameras ARE mirrorless.

Only because they use an EVF but in most ways they have more in common with a DSLR than a mirrorless.

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Aberaeron Veteran Member • Posts: 7,385
Re: ↑ rise of YouTub Video + Sony A7 superior Low-light, Eye AF tracking

desertsp wrote:

Also it might not be correct to assume that older people are less interested in the tech advancements than younger people. After all, what age bracket is the one complaining most that new cameras (read: smartphones) have lesser IQ than old ones (read: full size dedicated cameras)?

I have absolutely no idea how old tbcass is of course  He may well be 40 years or more younger than me. Its the attitude that is 'old'.

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T3 Forum Pro • Posts: 21,432
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

robblackett wrote:

T3 wrote:

George1958 wrote:

I agree Sony is a strong company, but is not universally dominant. All manufacturer are having to work harder to sell cameras. This is evident when you see the cash back and discounts for popular models.

"Popular models" don't really need cash back and discounts. Not all manufacturers are having to work hard to sell cameras. This is evident when you see the lack of cash back and discounts for popular models.

A7III: $1,998.00 (no discount)

6400: $898.00 (no discount)

EOS R: $1,999.00 ($300 discount. Also includes free EF adapter, $100 value)

EOS M50: $599.00 ($200 discount)

Nikon Z6: $1,796.95 ($200 discount. Also includes free FTZ adapter, $246.95 value)

Nikon Z7: $2,796.95 ($600.00 discount. Also includes free FTZ adapter, $246.95 value)

This makes sense, of course. After all, popular models sell themselves. Why would you need to discount or give cash back on a product that will sell well without discounting and cash back?

It depends. In the days when I was responsible for marketing cameras we constantly experimented with various marketing techniques.

Now given that a camera needs to sell at, say, $1998 to generate the required margin, which would you think would generate the larger number of sales - $1998 with no discount, or $2298 with $300 cashback or discount? After all it's the same selling price, right?

Well, invariably it was the higher price with the discount that would sell best, the conclusion being that a) people love to think they are getting a bargain; and b) retailers like to be able to advertise a 'special price' (ideally with a limited time period) which provides consumers with an incentive to buy now, rather than just thinking about it.

Cameras have always been discounted over time-- but only after their sales have dropped. And that typically happens a year or two after its release. But notice that the Canon and Nikon bodies are all very recent introductions. They are all less than a year old. And yet, they are already getting discounts. Conversely, the A7III was released in February 2018 but Sony has seen no need to discount it because its sales remain so strong.

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George1958 Contributing Member • Posts: 690
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

T3 - I had no difficulty finding cash backs for the A7III, then again I am willing to look.

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T3 Forum Pro • Posts: 21,432
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

George1958 wrote:

T3 - I had no difficulty finding cash backs for the A7III, then again I am willing to look.

Not at major retailers such as B&H, Adorama, Best Buy or Amazon. These stores together probably account for 90+% of camera sales nationwide.

https://www.adorama.com/isoa7m3.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1488758-REG/sony_alpha_a7_iii_mirrorless.html?ap=y&gclid=CjwKCAjw0tHoBRBhEiwAvP1GFZ-OIqOsuOFzMTXaBC1Hfp3v3LSdYhbGTuo5i6Y3iRztvn_LlCwytBoC1xoQAvD_BwE&lsft=BI%3A514&smp=y

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-alpha-a7-iii-mirrorless-camera-body-only/6213101.p?skuId=6213101&ref=212&loc=1&ref=212&loc=1&ds_rl=1266837&gclid=CjwKCAjw0tHoBRBhEiwAvP1GFUlZxcm00jDao17w31lrUFQAXej0wot6VYf_AWPBXDzlRgdlSIIF8BoC9ukQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

https://www.amazon.com/Sony-Full-Frame-Mirrorless-Interchangeable-Lens-ILCE7M3/dp/B07B43WPVK

In California where I am located, a major regional camera store is Samy's Camera. No cash back on A7 III at Samy's either:

https://www.samys.com/p/US-Only-Shipping/ILCE-7M3/Sony-Alpha-a7-III-Mirrorless-Digital-Camera-Body/201197.html

And according to a sales clerk I recently spoke to at Samy's, the A7 III is their top selling FF ILC. In fact, it's one of their best selling cameras, period. So again, why should they discount it if it sells so well?

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 43,211
Re: ↑ rise of YouTub Video + Sony A7 superior Low-light, Eye AF tracking
1

Aberaeron wrote:

desertsp wrote:

Also it might not be correct to assume that older people are less interested in the tech advancements than younger people. After all, what age bracket is the one complaining most that new cameras (read: smartphones) have lesser IQ than old ones (read: full size dedicated cameras)?

I have absolutely no idea how old tbcass is of course He may well be 40 years or more younger than me. It's the attitude that is 'old'.

I am 73 and use a smartphone every day. I am also a tech/computer nerd with an AAS degree in Electrical Technology. Because of my knowledge of computers and programming I am not as naive as some of the younger people who think of computational photography/AI as some kind of magic bullet that can overcome all the deficiencies in the original capture.  What is a fact is the IQ of smartphones does not satisfy me and that has nothing to do with age unless you are suggesting young people have lower IQ standards (maybe they do because their standards for sound quality in music is lower). What is a fact is sensor size is the primary determiner of image quality.

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jonhooverphot New Member • Posts: 3
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

In my opinion, Sony is more forward thinking than others by taking mirrorless technology and making it great!  SLR is very outdated and was designed for film photography. The advanced technology of Sony's mirrorless cameras makes photography more fun for me.

Aberaeron Veteran Member • Posts: 7,385
Re: ↑ rise of YouTub Video + Sony A7 superior Low-light, Eye AF tracking

tbcass wrote:

Aberaeron wrote:

desertsp wrote:

Also it might not be correct to assume that older people are less interested in the tech advancements than younger people. After all, what age bracket is the one complaining most that new cameras (read: smartphones) have lesser IQ than old ones (read: full size dedicated cameras)?

I have absolutely no idea how old tbcass is of course He may well be 40 years or more younger than me. It's the attitude that is 'old'.

I am 73 and use a smartphone every day. I am also a tech/computer nerd with an AAS degree in Electrical Technology. Because of my knowledge of computers and programming I am not as naive as some of the younger people who think of computational photography/AI as some kind of magic bullet that can overcome all the deficiencies in the original capture. What is a fact is the IQ of smartphones does not satisfy me and that has nothing to do with age unless you are suggesting young people have lower IQ standards (maybe they do because their standards for sound quality in music is lower). What is a fact is sensor size is the primary determiner of image quality.

At a given time and assuming a massive difference in sensor size unless you want to go pixel level viewing.

Anyhow, we were talking about camera developments and new features  weren't we?

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 43,211
Re: ↑ rise of YouTub Video + Sony A7 superior Low-light, Eye AF tracking
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Aberaeron wrote:

That is a sign of your advanced age. There are great big strides in focussing, video, live view on mirrorless cameras, 4 and even 6k photo modes, in-camera focus stacking, timelapse and so on. The thing is you will claim, in all probability, that none of that is relevant to you, which is another sign that you have landed in a rut by dint of time and your age.

I hope you realize that such insulting can get you banned.

The younger ones amongst us [I'm only 60], are still interested in all the new things around us everywhere, including in phones,

Phones bore me

cameras,

I love camera tech and what I own is advanced technologically.

cars

My car has every bell and whistle you can imagine.

and so on and on. Yeah, I know, none of which is relevant to you.

That is a lie.

You are incorrect and you completely misinterpreted the intention of my post. I have cameras with all the latest advances in focussing, video, live view and image quality (check my gear list). However from this point on I don't see any advances on the horizon that could be major improvements over what is available now. In addition many people just prefer DSLRs and OVFs (I am not one of them). DSLRs reached a limit to their technical possibilities a few years ago do those that use them have no incentive to upgrade or switch to mirrorless.

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Aberaeron Veteran Member • Posts: 7,385
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

jonhooverphot wrote:

In my opinion, Sony is more forward thinking than others by taking mirrorless technology and making it great! SLR is very outdated and was designed for film photography. The advanced technology of Sony's mirrorless cameras makes photography more fun for me.

Must say that I'm very partial to the developments made and led by M4/3 models and have only recently come back to Sony with their full frame mirrorless. I still have my A57 Sony DSLT though, which led me to selling my D5000 and going totally mirrorless from then on. As soon as I had used the A57 a while, I saw the advantage of mirrorless, which the A57 is in a way, apart from actually having a fixed mirror. The DSLT is a part way towards full mirrorless.

One of the big developments with mirrorless is the touchscreen, full liveview and, more than anything, the availability of multiple focus points covering the majority of the field of view. That is lacking on the A57 with only 15 points concentrated towards the centre of the view.

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Jonsi
Jonsi Senior Member • Posts: 4,115
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market
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jonhooverphot wrote:

In my opinion, Sony is more forward thinking than others by taking mirrorless technology and making it great! SLR is very outdated and was designed for film photography. The advanced technology of Sony's mirrorless cameras makes photography more fun for me.

Welcome "new" person.

tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 43,211
Re: ↑ rise of YouTub Video + Sony A7 superior Low-light, Eye AF tracking

Aberaeron wrote:

Please reread what I posted because i edited it.

At a given time and assuming a massive difference in sensor size unless you want to go pixel level viewing.

I love pixel level viewing and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I love extreme cropping and looking at large prints. It's a large part of the enjoyment of photography for me. Heck, without viewing at extreme magnifications what good is all the technological advances.

Anyhow, we were talking about camera developments and new features weren't we?

New developments and features that make small sensors better but still not as good as a large sensor aren't something I want. The terrible ergonomics of smartphones is also a big negative.

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Tom

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zephyrprime Regular Member • Posts: 184
Re: Why does Sony have such a dominant market position in the US market

Fregoli wrote:

But your link takes us to photo reflex numériques, which are digital SLRs.

The proper link is probably this: https://www.amazon.fr/gp/bestsellers/electronics/342795031/ref=zg_bs_unv_ce_3_14059661_1/258-0397525-4916144

There, the only serious Nikon in the top 50 is the D7200 and for canon, the 6DII. Sony has the A7II, A7III

In that link you posted, its actually the A7i, not the a7ii present.  I don't see the d7200 on that list either.  But yes, that link you provided is more correct.  My link is invalid.

Aberaeron Veteran Member • Posts: 7,385
Re: ↑ rise of YouTub Video + Sony A7 superior Low-light, Eye AF tracking

tbcass wrote:

Aberaeron wrote:

Please reread what I posted because i edited it.

At a given time and assuming a massive difference in sensor size unless you want to go pixel level viewing.

I love pixel level viewing and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I love extreme cropping and looking at large prints. It's a large part of the enjoyment of photography for me. Heck, without viewing at extreme magnifications what good is all the technological advances.

Anyhow, we were talking about camera developments and new features weren't we?

New developments and features that make small sensors better but still not as good as a large sensor aren't something I want. The terrible ergonomics of smartphones is also a big negative.

Are you not cognisant with the developments in larger sensor cameras? I've listed just a few elsewhere.

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